Bill Cosby in the spotlight looking good!

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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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I think there's a strong possibility that a certain number of the new and more recent charges could be based on this--

However we are talking about accusations from the 60s--basically conversations between individuals and lawyers, in a world where information was nearly impossible to obtain if you wanted it that way.

Consider that these are multiple allegations from individuals that never knew or knew of each other, telling the same story.

Again, this isn't about new allegations--it's about the pervasive history of this situation, and how it has been repeatedly and undeniably swept away.

The man owned a frickin' jumbo jet. A jumbo jet. He has been a target all along. The timing of the latest accusation is meant to apply legal pressure where the ones that were supposedly outside the statute of limitations were meant to imply credibility.
 

PG

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 1999
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How can anyone think this guy is innocent?
Too many people have come forward, and most have similar stories.

This also reminds me of what has happened with the Catholic church and priests. It takes sometimes decades for people to get up the courage to stand up and talk publicly about what happened to them.
How about Jerry Sandusky's victims? Same thing there too. It takes time before people can deal with what happened and can come forward and talk.
 
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The man owned a frickin' jumbo jet. A jumbo jet. He has been a target all along. The timing of the latest accusation is meant to apply legal pressure where the ones that were supposedly outside the statute of limitations were meant to imply credibility.

Did he own a jumbo jet back in the 70's and 80's when all this crap first started to surface?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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The man owned a frickin' jumbo jet. A jumbo jet. He has been a target all along. The timing of the latest accusation is meant to apply legal pressure where the ones that were supposedly outside the statute of limitations were meant to imply credibility.

As PG just mentioned, the Catholic Church is very wealthy and large numbers of people have come out with similar stories about abuse by priests. Using your logic, they should be ignored because they are clearly part of a conspiracy.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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You think alleging that a decade spanning conspiracy between large numbers of unrelated women, several of whom have made it explicitly clear they neither need or want any money from him is more probable than Cosby being a sex offender and you think consistency between accounts, even from people who were almost certainly unaware of the other people's stories makes it less believable.

This is not an example of good critical thinking skills.

Um right..... Gloria Allred (a lawyer representing some of these hags) has called for a $100 million fund to be set up by Cosby for the victims. This reeks of an old fashioned money grab...
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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While I agree with you, in this case we have enough smoke for a forest fire.
lol True. I'm just uncertain how much (if any) is from actual fire and how much is from lawyers' smoke machines.

I have worked a fair amount as a criminal prosecutor and defense attorney, including working on some extraordinarily awful sexual assault and molestation cases.

My own view is that the sheer quantum of women who have come forward against Cosby, the similarity of their allegations, and the fact that many of them having nothing to gain from accusing him are sufficient to convince me that he is very likely guilty of drugging and engaging in sex acts with at least some of them. His own refusal to directly confront the issue in an interview just bolsters this opinion.

I do not find the arguments in favor of Cosby's innocence persuasive.

First, I am reading the argument that there was no "motive" to do this, because Cosby could have had consensual sex with as many young women as he wanted. This argument reflects a fundamental ignorance of sexual paraphelias. People with deviant sexual interests want to engage in them regardless of the availability of normal sexual outlets. I have prosecuted men for child pornography and molestation who were married to attractive women and had no need to look to children as sex partners. Similarly, it appears Cosby has an unhealthy interest in having sex with women who are non-responsive. This could stem from an instinct to overpower them or simply the preference that they lie there silently while he poses them and manipulates them. This is in no way inconsistent with the fact that he could have had sex with them consensually. The point is, not everyone who drugs a woman is a horny young man who can't get sex through other means - there are people who are just into weird stuff, and it appears to me Cosby is such a person.

Second, I am reading people arguing that the fact that these women didn't come forward sooner is evidence of Cosby's innocence. I am not so sure. He has been an astronomically wealthy, successful man in show business for something like 50 years. Nearly all of these women have been young, aspiring actresses and models. It seems very likely that they were generally some combination of a) unsure what had happened, since they were drugged and didn't really remember; b) intimidated by him and afraid of the blowback associated with accusing him; and/or c) hopeful he would help their careers in some way if they did not report him (and in fact he did pay for Renita Chaney Hill to go to college). In addition, at least some of them (Lachele Covington and Andrea Constand) did report him shortly after the alleged assaults occurred, and he settled out of court with Constand.

Personally I am ambivalent about these accusations, because Cosby has already suffered blowback for things he was never convicted of. On the other hand, he's 77 years old, and has more money than God. As stated above, I do believe he's guilty of at least a good percentage of what he has been accused of. Accordingly I think he has been incredibly lucky to have kept his reputation mostly clear for as long as he has, and have no sympathy for his current predicament.
Fair points. I too am ambivalent about these accusations, although it's also worth remembering is that the accusations were reported "shortly after the alleged assaults", not immediately afterward. This is important because immediately afterward, the charges can be proven but also can be disproven. Weeks afterward there is no way to conclude whether or not the incident, consensual or not, ever took place. That means the accused has no way to truly clear his name, and if he's short-sighted or has a major deal in the works a celebrity might well see making a modest settlement to not take the bad press.

Shocking, the conservative website Daily Caller is doing what conservatives do and defending a rapist.
Which is somehow completely different from all the superior leftists who supported Roman Polanski even though he drugged, raped and sodomized a thirteen year old child, pled guilty, and then fled the continent to avoid punishment. 'Cause that's not 'rape' rape. That's not "legitimate" rape.

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/39618660.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZskUvAGyjQ

Amazing how "innocent until proven guilty" is a mark against the right, while "innocent after admitting guilt" seems to be okay for the left.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Neither you nor I are Cosby's peers. That is something that neither of us can determine either way. We really have no place to assume that he ever was a nice guy, really.

His peers are in a better place for determining this. ....and by all accounts, it seems that they established their opinion of him a very long time ago.

This is a fact: Among comedians, "Cosby is pretty much a rapist" is the same kind of underground truth/joke that they all share, sort of like "The Aristocrats."

So, is there real truth behind that?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...t_allegations_five_years_ago_long_before.html
Yet Cosby has done stand-up for fifty years and this "common knowledge" seems to have existed for fourteen, since the first police report (which was at the time of the incident, but inappropriate touching rather than rape) became public. If Cosby is really a serial rapist for at least four decades, shouldn't this be much more broadly known? Believing people guilty of something doesn't necessarily make it so.
 
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People keep assuming that they have nothing to gain as if that means they must be telling the truth. Hello?! They stand to gain extortion money! This is Michael Jackson all over again.

So you believe Michael Jackson was 100% innocent of any wrongdoing?

Most of the Cosby accusers fall outside the statute of limitations and have not brought or threatened suit. Claiming that they intend to "extort" money from Cosby is a glib, incomplete, not particularly helpful explanation for their accusations.
 
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Yet Cosby has done stand-up for fifty years and this "common knowledge" seems to have existed for fourteen, since the first police report (which was at the time of the incident, but inappropriate touching rather than rape) became public. If Cosby is really a serial rapist for at least four decades, shouldn't this be much more broadly known? Believing people guilty of something doesn't necessarily make it so.

No, I don't think it would be "more broadly known." What would be and, I suspect, is broadly known is that a lot of young women come and go from Cosby's hotel rooms/apartments/houses at night. The people who know that are, however, members of Cosby's inner circle whose livelihoods depend on their discretion. They don't know one way or the other what happens once Cosby is alone with these girls, and the mechanism of his (alleged) sexual assaults means they will find no objective evidence. A drugged girl doesn't scream, nor does molesting her leave a bloody crime scene. Only Cosby knows for certain what happens when the door closes. (The girl, who may or may not be drugged, may or may not know or recall what occurs.)
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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So you believe Michael Jackson was 100% innocent of any wrongdoing?

Most of the Cosby accusers fall outside the statute of limitations and have not brought or threatened suit. Claiming that they intend to "extort" money from Cosby is a glib, incomplete, not particularly helpful explanation for their accusations.
How many of the women actually claiming rape do you think are not going to attach themselves to the Allred lawsuit? I'm guessing exactly zero.

No, I don't think it would be "more broadly known." What would be and, I suspect, is broadly known is that a lot of young women come and go from Cosby's hotel rooms/apartments/houses at night. The people who know that are, however, members of Cosby's inner circle whose livelihoods depend on their discretion. They don't know one way or the other what happens once Cosby is alone with these girls, and the mechanism of his (alleged) sexual assaults means they will find no objective evidence. A drugged girl doesn't scream, nor does molesting her leave a bloody crime scene. Only Cosby knows for certain what happens when the door closes. (The girl, who may or may not be drugged, may or may not know or recall what occurs.)
Fair enough, but she'll certainly know she had sex. That coupled with lack of consciousness is enough to claim rape even when the woman self-intoxicated, for men receive no such intoxication release from responsibility.

EDIT: I'm also assuming that these women, many if not most of whom were aspiring performers, would have talked bitterly at the time even if they couldn't see fit to go to the police. That should have been enough to establish Cosby as a rapist well before the first public charge, and that doesn't seem to have happened.
 
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How many of the women actually claiming rape do you think are not going to attach themselves to the Allred lawsuit? I'm guessing exactly zero.

Fair enough, but she'll certainly know she had sex. That coupled with lack of consciousness is enough to claim rape even when the woman self-intoxicated, for men receive no such intoxication release from responsibility.

I have no idea, as to the former. I bet you're wrong that all of the alleged victims will join in the suit, however.

As to the latter, remember that the allegations against Cosby don't all (or even mostly, as I understand it) involve intercourse. Some have involved using the victim's hand to masturbate, and the one that emerged today (arising from an alleged incident six years ago) involves a woman waking up to Cosby masturbating and kissing her toes. In that respect the allegations are akin to a smart/cruel police officer beating a suspect with a phone book to avoid leaving a mark. It may well be the case that Cosby drugged some of these women, then engaged in sex acts he knew would not leave physical evidence.

And, to respond to your edit, a number of comics have come forward and said Cosby's bad behavior has been well known in the industry for years. Adam Carolla is represented by James Dixon, who also reps, among others, Jon Stewart, Colbert and Kimmel. Adam says Dixon has told him for years that it is well known Cosby is a rapist. Patton Oswalt says the same - http://uproxx.com/webculture/2014/12/patton-oswalt-opinion-on-bill-cosby-sexual-allegations/ Also, remember, these allegations are not new - he settled that drugging/sexual assault case all the way back in 2006.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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I have no idea, as to the former. I bet you're wrong that all of the alleged victims will join in the suit, however.

As to the latter, remember that the allegations against Cosby don't all (or even mostly, as I understand it) involve intercourse. Some have involved using the victim's hand to masturbate, and the one that emerged today (arising from an alleged incident six years ago) involves a woman waking up to Cosby masturbating and kissing her toes. In that respect the allegations are akin to a smart/cruel police officer beating a suspect with a phone book to avoid leaving a mark. It may well be the case that Cosby drugged some of these women, then engaged in sex acts he knew would not leave physical evidence.

The $100 million fund Gloria is proposing is for "victims" and NOT plaintiffs. Even so, that's only the public benefit for those out of the statute of limitations. Extortion happens behind the scenes and is often the whole point, like the payoff for not revealing his affair.

Once again, why would he continue drugging even in 2008 if it clearly isn't working and his "victims" can remember or wake up too soon? It doesn't add up. No criminal is that dumb. I catch criminals for a living and one thing that has always rang true is that they keep doing things the same way only as long as it keeps working, then they change tactics.

The reason the stories are so similar is because the accusers are borrowing details from each others' stories in an attempt to form a narrative.
 
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Yet Cosby has done stand-up for fifty years and this "common knowledge" seems to have existed for fourteen, since the first police report (which was at the time of the incident, but inappropriate touching rather than rape) became public. If Cosby is really a serial rapist for at least four decades, shouldn't this be much more broadly known? Believing people guilty of something doesn't necessarily make it so.

He's was using the concept of drugging women in his standup acts as far back as the late 60's, early 70's. It's even on one of his early albums.
 
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Once again, why would he continue drugging even in 2008 if it clearly isn't working and his "victims" can remember or wake up too soon? It doesn't add up. No criminal is that dumb. I catch criminals for a living and one thing that has always rang true is that they keep doing things the same way only as long as it keeps working, then they change tactics. The reason they are so similar is because the accusers are borrowing details from each others' stories in an attempt to form a narrative.

This statement tells me you just don't get it, probably because you don't have experience with sex offenders..

Do you believe child molesters stop molesting after being caught? I can promise you, from my own experience, that they don't. The reason is that they have a compulsion, very much like an addiction, to their aberrant behavior.

Why would Bill Clinton have had an affair with Monica Lewinsky when he was fully aware he was under investigation by Ken Starr? He is a highly intelligent man and had everything to lose. As you say, it just doesn't add up, and no criminal is that dumb. The answer, of course, is that he did it because his sex drive made him, consequences be damned. The same thing may well be true of Bill Cosby, and I think it probably is.

I find it just bizarre that anyone would be SO hostile to at least the possibility that the simplest explanation is true (remember Occam's Razor), and that Cosby is guilty in some form or fashion. Obviously I don't know for certain one way or the other, but to me the evidence of guilt is of a type and quantity that I find it very very unlikely that none of the accusations are true.
 
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Exophase

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Apr 19, 2012
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Which is somehow completely different from all the superior leftists who supported Roman Polanski even though he drugged, raped and sodomized a thirteen year old child, pled guilty, and then fled the continent to avoid punishment. 'Cause that's not 'rape' rape. That's not "legitimate" rape.

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/39618660.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZskUvAGyjQ

Amazing how "innocent until proven guilty" is a mark against the right, while "innocent after admitting guilt" seems to be okay for the left.

I don't think Polanski really has that much support among American liberals outside of Hollywood.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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I have no idea, as to the former. I bet you're wrong that all of the alleged victims will join in the suit, however.

As to the latter, remember that the allegations against Cosby don't all (or even mostly, as I understand it) involve intercourse. Some have involved using the victim's hand to masturbate, and the one that emerged today (arising from an alleged incident six years ago) involves a woman waking up to Cosby masturbating and kissing her toes. In that respect the allegations are akin to a smart/cruel police officer beating a suspect with a phone book to avoid leaving a mark. It may well be the case that Cosby drugged some of these women, then engaged in sex acts he knew would not leave physical evidence.

And, to respond to your edit, a number of comics have come forward and said Cosby's bad behavior has been well known in the industry for years. Adam Carolla is represented by James Dixon, who also reps, among others, Jon Stewart, Colbert and Kimmel. Adam says Dixon has told him for years that it is well known Cosby is a rapist. Patton Oswalt says the same - http://uproxx.com/webculture/2014/12/patton-oswalt-opinion-on-bill-cosby-sexual-allegations/ Also, remember, these allegations are not new - he settled that drugging/sexual assault case all the way back in 2006.
But are we now accepting lack of evidence as evidence of occurrence?

Perhaps more to the point, is show business really so morally bankrupt that "everybody knows" Bill Cosby is a rapist and yet absolutely no one does anything about it? Or is it "well known [that] Cosby is a rapist" because years ago he was accused of being a rapist?

Could be that nearly every one of these allegations are true, but I see no reason to assume so at this point.

He's was using the concept of drugging women in his standup acts as far back as the late 60's, early 70's. It's even on one of his early albums.
And you see nothing implausible about a man regularly committing crimes that could put him away for life AND incorporating that into his stand-up act?

I don't think Polanski really has that much support among American liberals outside of Hollywood.
Actually I read somebody (forget who) who pointed out that virtually all Polanski's support is from the Hollywood outsiders, those people involved in film/television/advertising who commonly make movies away from Hollywood. But you are correct, most mainstream non-film industry libs usually steer clear of voicing support.

BTW, at least one Polanski support is not liberal. Anne Applebaum is more neoconservative than liberal. Evidently for her, Polish ancestry is important enough to forgive drugging, raping and sodomizing a child if one is Polish.
 
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And you see nothing implausible about a man regularly committing crimes that could put him away for life AND incorporating that into his stand-up act?

Actually, no I don't. Back then he was probably just learning about his 'kink'.

People with power and prestige and lots to lose have been doing this kind of thing pretty much since we first had people of power and prestige who had lots to lose. I really don't understand why it's so hard for people to believe it's possible with ol' Bill.

I've mentioned Jimmy Savile before. He seems to be about as perfect an example as you can find. If you don't know his story, look him up.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
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How many of the women actually claiming rape do you think are not going to attach themselves to the Allred lawsuit? I'm guessing exactly zero.

So far at least one has said she wants no money from him and was going to serve as a witness in the suit against him that he settled, while also not being a party to the suit of I have read correctly.

If that's true, how does that change your view?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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What I don't get for the people saying they don't believe any of this is that you're basically saying that you think there is a less than 50% chance of even a single one of 27 separate allegations being true. Is that really the most likely thing?
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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So far at least one has said she wants no money from him and was going to serve as a witness in the suit against him that he settled, while also not being a party to the suit of I have read correctly.

If that's true, how does that change your view?

Extortion or kick backs from others involved would be private (duh) and if that's not it, the $100 million "victim" fund does not require that she be a member of the suit. Convenient, huh? $100 million divided 27 ways is nearly 4 million each. It isn't only legal pressure that may make an extortion plot succeed: his sponsors and other associations are dropping him like he was diseased and this, too, could be a planned result of him rejecting their extortion plot. Now they have moved on to plan B, which is the $100 million pot to split.

He very well may be a rapist but there is a reason we are innocent until proven guilty in this country.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
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This statement tells me you just don't get it, probably because you don't have experience with sex offenders..

Do you believe child molesters stop molesting after being caught? I can promise you, from my own experience, that they don't. The reason is that they have a compulsion, very much like an addiction, to their aberrant behavior.

Why would Bill Clinton have had an affair with Monica Lewinsky when he was fully aware he was under investigation by Ken Starr? He is a highly intelligent man and had everything to lose. As you say, it just doesn't add up, and no criminal is that dumb. The answer, of course, is that he did it because his sex drive made him, consequences be damned. The same thing may well be true of Bill Cosby, and I think it probably is.

I find it just bizarre that anyone would be SO hostile to at least the possibility that the simplest explanation is true (remember Occam's Razor), and that Cosby is guilty in some form or fashion. Obviously I don't know for certain one way or the other, but to me the evidence of guilt is of a type and quantity that I find it very very unlikely that none of the accusations are true.
Even sex offenders will change their methods. The thieves I catch switch up their tactics while targeting the same merchandise when we catch them or almost catch them. One group we even caught sending in their kids once they knew we were wise to them! There are compulsive thieves too, you know, and I prey on their compulsions to catch them. I form charts and plots and try not to let on how much we know so that they don't change up their tactics before we can adapt and catch them on their next attempt.

What? He can't change drugs or delivery methods because that's part of the compulsion? Why can't organized extortion be the simplest explanation?
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
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Extortion or kick backs from others involved would be private (duh) and if that's not it, the $100 million "victim" fund does not require that she be a member of the suit. Convenient, huh? $100 million divided 27 ways is nearly 4 million each. It isn't only legal pressure that may make an extortion plot succeed: his sponsors and other associations are dropping him like he was diseased and this, too, could be a result of him rejecting their extortion plot. Now they have moved on to plan B, which is the $100 million pot to split.

He very well may be a rapist but there is a reason we are innocent until proven guilty in this country.

So now she's secretly getting money behind the scenes?

Nobody is talking about criminal standards of proof here, I just think it's pretty clear that it is more likely than not that he committed at least some of these acts.
 

CZroe

Lifer
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So now she's secretly getting money behind the scenes?

Nobody is talking about criminal standards of proof here, I just think it's pretty clear that it is more likely than not that he committed at least some of these acts.

You seriously don't know how this works?! No. She and her cohorts secretly DEMANDED it behind the scenes like every other character assanation extortion plot ever in the history of the world. This would be the fallout from him rejecting that. Plan B. What they threatened to do all along.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
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You seriously don't know how this works?! No. She and her cohorts secretly DEMANDED it behind the scenes like every other character assanation extortion plot ever in the history of the world. This would be the fallout from him rejecting that. Plan B. What they threatened to do all along.

Do you have any basis for this accusation whatsoever?

It seems odd to declare the accusations against Cosby baseless based on a vastly more baseless claim, and one that requires literally dozens of people to be conspiring together. You said you wanted to use critical thinking skills earlier.

You can choose between one powerful man being able to abuse weak people and indulge a fetish vs. A multi decade consoiracy involving several dozen women. Can you explain why the second is more likely?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
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Actually, no I don't. Back then he was probably just learning about his 'kink'.

People with power and prestige and lots to lose have been doing this kind of thing pretty much since we first had people of power and prestige who had lots to lose. I really don't understand why it's so hard for people to believe it's possible with ol' Bill.

I've mentioned Jimmy Savile before. He seems to be about as perfect an example as you can find. If you don't know his story, look him up.
Personally I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm just saying I'm not convinced it's true.

As far as Jimmy Savile, perhaps his case is indeed illustrative.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30494996 Jimmy Savile: Victims' compensation scheme approved
A compensation scheme for those who say Jimmy Savile sexually abused them has been sanctioned by the Court of Appeal.

The scheme was set up by the Savile estate, the BBC, the NHS, the charity Barnardo's and lawyers acting for alleged victims. It was approved by the High Court earlier this year.

But the Jimmy Savile Charitable Trust, a beneficiary of the estate, said the scheme would not weed out fake claims and too much money would go to lawyers.

Appeal judges dismissed the challenge.

The court also rejected the trust's application for NatWest to be dismissed as the executor of Savile's estate.

Meanwhile, abuse survivors who met Home Secretary Theresa May on Monday said the government was creating £2m fund for groups helping people who will give evidence to the forthcoming public inquiry into abuse, and a separate £1.5m fund for charities which help abuse survivors.
Claim to have been molested by Jimmy Saville? That's good enough for us. Come get your chunk of his estate, and while you're at it, have a double helping of taxpayer money too. Just remember to tip your lawyers on the way out. They're the ones atop that biiig pile of cash.

Proving things in a court of law is SO twentieth century.

So far at least one has said she wants no money from him and was going to serve as a witness in the suit against him that he settled, while also not being a party to the suit of I have read correctly.

If that's true, how does that change your view?
We'll see. It's easy to claim no financial interest; it's quite another to actually avoid the financial gain and the attendant free publicity.

What I don't get for the people saying they don't believe any of this is that you're basically saying that you think there is a less than 50% chance of even a single one of 27 separate allegations being true. Is that really the most likely thing?
Why at this point would we choose to believe something so heinous? Consider - the women who actually claim to have been drugged and raped had the absolute power to prove it at that time. Every single one decided not to do so. Should I simply ignore that? If a woman tells me she's been drugged and raped, and she has the physical signs and a rape drug in her blood, then absent some powerful conflicting element I'll believe that. If she tells me she was raped decades ago and NOW she wants vengeance, I'm going to be somewhat skeptical. If she tells me she was raped decades ago and NOW she wants vengeance, not money, when coincidentally there is a shit pot full of money to be had, then I'm going to be very skeptical. It's akin to telling me you discovered the cure for cancer but you left it in your other pants and it was lost in the laundry.

I'll certainly concede the charges MIGHT be true, but at this point I have no need to decide either way. He isn't running for office; I am not supporting his career; I don't even have to choose whether to watch his television program. (In fact, I can't decide to watch his television program; they've all been pulled.) Until Cosby does something to force me to decide one way or another, I'll accord him the presumption of innocence unless and until I see something that convinces me of his guilt. A lot of women making accusations isn't something that convinces me of he is guilty of rape.