Biden considering emergency measures to boost refinery output

[Brovane]

This is one area that doesn't bother Manchin. Wind credits very likely to make what he's hashing out with Schumer. He's got a burr up his ass over EV credits going to foreign automakers but that may be resolved by raising the cap for US carmakers, reportedly.

I think a possible deal could be made to increase refinery capacity and oil production in the short term while also renewing incentives for green energy, clean energy vehicles and nuclear power. I say alternative energy vehicles because this allows new incentives for Hydrogen. Some Republicans are strong supporters of Hydrogen because of the support from the fossil fuel energy for Hydrogen. By making the incentive for clean energy vehicles more agnostic maybe that will get some Republican votes.

The question I wonder with all this alternative energy talk why are we not talking more about Geo-thermal? That is a form of green energy that really doesn't have the intermittent issues that solar and wind have.

 

[sportage]

AGAIN.... It's all about GREED. American greed against Americans. Who needs the Saudis when we have Chevron, and Exxon?
If Biden lowers gas by 18 cents with imposing a gas tax holiday, the American oil companies will see this as their opportunity to raise gas by 18 cents a gallon. And if the states join in with cutting gas prices further, then the oil companies will raise gas even more.
After all... why not???
Americans are rich. Americans have plenty of money. Americans even look rich. So yeah, raise those prices Chevron. Raise those food prices Walmart. Raise those prices American retailer because you know how rich Americans are, and look. They look pretty damn rich in the eyes of greed.

 

[Zorba]

I think a possible deal could be made to increase refinery capacity and oil production in the short term while also renewing incentives for green energy, clean energy vehicles and nuclear power. I say alternative energy vehicles because this allows new incentives for Hydrogen. Some Republicans are strong supporters of Hydrogen because of the support from the fossil fuel energy for Hydrogen. By making the incentive for clean energy vehicles more agnostic maybe that will get some Republican votes.

The question I wonder with all this alternative energy talk why are we not talking more about Geo-thermal? That is a form of green energy that really doesn't have the intermittent issues that solar and wind have.

Any deal to increase fossil fuel production, should also be tied to gas guzzler tax. The problem is the second gas goes back to $2.50/gal the F250 will start sealing like hot cakes again.

Fossil fuel industry likes hydrogen because most hydrogen production comes from stripping the hydrogen atoms out of natural gas.

I did some research into Geothermal in grad school, specifically running Kalina Power cycles, which is a really cool power cycle. The problem is, there really aren't that many places that have a high enough accessible ground temperature, with a low enough air temperature to get any efficiency out of them. I was specifically looking at using old oil wells in Oklahoma, of which there are hundreds of thousands. The hottest ones out in western Oklahoma are about 350°F so even in the winter with a 40°F, that would give you a maximum Carnot efficiency of 38%. But in Reality with a Kalina cycle you'd have a maximum theoretical of 12-14%, which of course would be eroded away once you actually looked at real loses.

Where geothermal should be used a lot more is for heating/cooling. It is massively more efficient than traditional air conditioners and heat pumps. But you need land to put in all the bore holes, and you need companies that specialize in it and know what they are doing.

 

[sportage]

Be prepared. The oil companies will fight hard as hell and nasty as hell to try and delay and derail the inevitable.... the nation switching to electric cars. You ain't seen nothing yet. And fossil fuels will pay congress generously to take a stance against the inevitable.... the nation switching to electric. And should Trump become president again, that resistance against electric will become even more intense and threatening.
Fox news will spew an endless array of lies of how going electric will destroy the rain forest, as if Fox or Trump cares at all about the environment.
I'm just saying, be prepared for all out war against YOU owning a car that does not require gas.

Biden hopes to help the situation with gas prices by imposing a tax holiday, and hoping that states will join in with their own gas tax holidays. But again, that will not happen in republican controlled states. There is no way that those republican states will want to help out Joe Biden or to do anything to make Joe Biden look better politically.

In have seen gs dropping a bit in the last few days.
And.... I am seeing more baby formula on the store shelves too.

 

[Zor Prime]

Be prepared. The oil companies will fight hard as hell and nasty as hell to try and delay and derail the inevitable.... the nation switching to electric cars.

This is like suggesting cold fusion is almost here. Another decade comes and goes.

The only way the USA is going electric is when batteries for EVs are cheap, well under a grand, preferably no higher than $500 at the moment. I can't begin to count the number of people who cannot afford a new-anything automobile. There are so many people who have never and will never be able to afford a new automobile. What goes bad with EVs? Their batteries. Ask me how I know, I've had like ... 4 hybrids or something so far.

As soon as second hand EVs become available on the used market along with cheap replacement batteries then and only then can America begin to go electric otherwise it's political suicide as the people pushing stuff that cannot be afforded are oppressors to these people.

Let's be realistc. This is something that isn't going to be done within the next 10 years. I'd be surprised within the next 20, you cannot push something on people that cannot be afforded (even used.)

 

[Brovane]

The only way the USA is going electric is when batteries for EVs are cheap, well under a grand, preferably no higher than $500 at the moment. I can't begin to count the number of people who cannot afford a new-anything automobile. There are so many people who have never and will never be able to afford a new automobile. What goes bad with EVs? Their batteries. Ask me how I know, I've had like ... 4 hybrids or something so far.

You really need to be looking at the price per kwh because replacing a 50 kwh battery is not going to cost the same as 100 kwh battery.

 

[brycejones]

This is like suggesting cold fusion is almost here. Another decade comes and goes.

The only way the USA is going electric is when batteries for EVs are cheap, well under a grand, preferably no higher than $500 at the moment. I can't begin to count the number of people who cannot afford a new-anything automobile. There are so many people who have never and will never be able to afford a new automobile. What goes bad with EVs? Their batteries. Ask me how I know, I've had like ... 4 hybrids or something so far.

As soon as second hand EVs become available on the used market along with cheap replacement batteries then and only then can America begin to go electric otherwise it's political suicide as the people pushing stuff that cannot be afforded are oppressors to these people.

Let's be realistc. This is something that isn't going to be done within the next 10 years. I'd be surprised within the next 20, you cannot push something on people that cannot be afforded (even used.)

You don’t remember the cars you’ve owned? Weird

 

[Brovane]

Any deal to increase fossil fuel production, should also be tied to gas guzzler tax. The problem is the second gas goes back to $2.50/gal the F250 will start sealing like hot cakes again.

I think we should be looking at a floor on the price of gas tied to a variable tax.

Fossil fuel industry likes hydrogen because most hydrogen production comes from stripping the hydrogen atoms out of natural gas.

I did some research into Geothermal in grad school, specifically running Kalina Power cycles, which is a really cool power cycle. The problem is, there really aren't that many places that have a high enough accessible ground temperature, with a low enough air temperature to get any efficiency out of them. I was specifically looking at using old oil wells in Oklahoma, of which there are hundreds of thousands. The hottest ones out in western Oklahoma are about 350°F so even in the winter with a 40°F, that would give you a maximum Carnot efficiency of 38%. But in Reality with a Kalina cycle you'd have a maximum theoretical of 12-14%, which of course would be eroded away once you actually looked at real loses.

Where geothermal should be used a lot more is for heating/cooling. It is massively more efficient than traditional air conditioners and heat pumps. But you need land to put in all the bore holes, and you need companies that specialize in it and know what they are doing.

Did you ever look at EGS (Enhanced Geo-Thermal Systems)? Enhanced Geothermal System (EGS) Fact Sheet

This Overlooked Energy Source Could Supply 50% Of Electricity

Why geothermal energy is being viewed as a viable alternative to fossil fuels I think the technology to recover geo-thermal brine in the Salton Sea area and then recover Lithium from that brine is very interesting. You can generate Geo-thermal energy and recover Lithium for batteries.

 

[K1052]

I think a possible deal could be made to increase refinery capacity and oil production in the short term while also renewing incentives for green energy, clean energy vehicles and nuclear power. I say alternative energy vehicles because this allows new incentives for Hydrogen. Some Republicans are strong supporters of Hydrogen because of the support from the fossil fuel energy for Hydrogen. By making the incentive for clean energy vehicles more agnostic maybe that will get some Republican votes.

As long as the incentives for hydrogen are not at the expense of something else I don't really have a problem. It probably will never be more than a niche fuel for some fleets. Much more potential in long term energy storage for the power grid or ammonia.

The question I wonder with all this alternative energy talk why are we not talking more about Geo-thermal? That is a form of green energy that really doesn't have the intermittent issues that solar and wind have.

Some new geothermal plants have been moving in California. They also provide opportunity for lithium extraction.

https://www.latimes.com/environment...-after-sundown-geothermal-could-be-the-answer

 

[Brovane]

As long as the incentives for hydrogen are not at the expense of something else I don't really have a problem. It probably will never be more than a niche fuel for some fleets. Much more potential in long term energy storage for the power grid or ammonia.

Some new geothermal plants have been moving in California. They also provide opportunity for lithium extraction.

https://www.latimes.com/environment...-after-sundown-geothermal-could-be-the-answer

Extracting Lithium while generating geo-thermal energy would be awesome if they can make it work at scale.

I also think Hydrogen is a dead end for most road transport except for specific uses. For example long haul trucking. However I am trying to keep a open mind and remain energy agnostic for what future transport would look like.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

This is where Democrats suck. They are afraid to confront problems but love to talk about them.
The Justice Department should be sequestering Oil companies records, picking over them and calling executives in to explain the record profits. Simply doing that would lower the cost because all the executives would fear the bad PR/fines and possible jail time if collusion is found.
That is how you use power.

 

[Homerboy]

This is where Democrats suck. They are afraid to confront problems but love to talk about them.
The Justice Department should be sequestering Oil companies records, picking over them and calling executives in to explain the record profits. Simply doing that would lower the cost because all the executives would fear the bad PR/fines and possible jail time if collusion is found.
That is how you use power.

yeah - i do not understand how we just continuously allow oil companies to rape us and the whole world over and over and over.
I mean I get it - it's because those that have the power to hold them accountable are getting ridiculously rich by not holding them accountable.

 

[Zorba]

I think we should be looking at a floor on the price of gas tied to a variable tax.

The problem with variable tax, is the gas companies would always charge at least as much as the floor. No way they are going to let the government get revenue they could be getting.

Did you ever look at EGS (Enhanced Geo-Thermal Systems)? Enhanced Geothermal System (EGS) Fact Sheet

This Overlooked Energy Source Could Supply 50% Of Electricity

Why geothermal energy is being viewed as a viable alternative to fossil fuels I think the technology to recover geo-thermal brine in the Salton Sea area and then recover Lithium from that brine is very interesting. You can generate Geo-thermal energy and recover Lithium for batteries.

I'd be interested to see a map of where all of this geothermal heat is located, unless they plan on going very deep. But the deeper you go, the more inefficient the process is due to pumping requirements. To get close to real viability I'd think you'd need a heat source of ~550°F, with a sink below 80°F.

There is a plant in western OK that brings up brine, at 300°F and extracts minerals from it. They have to cool it, which geothermal is great for because it removes the heat from the brine. But in the summer time, the system wouldn't even be able to run itself.

I've also had to deal with man made earthquakes in Oklahoma, including several damaging ones. For a few years OKC was having thousands a year. So I think they are being a little optimistic on that hazard, especially since all the research they cite happened before the massive swarms in Oklahoma caused by high pressure injection in regions with faults/fractures.

But, I'm all for geothermal if it can make since. I think it hasn't taken off though, because in the majority of the nation it would be very inefficient, likely to point of not being viable. It is used very effectively in Iceland, where they have very hot sources and fairly cool sinks.

 

[Brainonska511]

yeah - i do not understand how we just continuously allow oil companies to rape us and the whole world over and over and over.
I mean I get it - it's because those that have the power to hold them accountable are getting ridiculously rich by not holding them accountable.

Want to undercut oil companies? Support building of more walkable/bikeable neighborhoods, better mass transit, and stricter fuel economy standards across the board (maybe even crack down on the whole light truck loophole). It can be done: we used to build our cities and towns this way.

As long as we are beholden to automobiles for so much of daily life in the US, oil companies and auto interests will have us by the balls.

 

[FlawleZ]

Interestingly, CNN got one right for once.

Biden's decision to cancel Keystone is one the US will eventually regret | CNN Business

At first glance, President Joe Biden's executive order revoking the 1,200-mile Keystone XL pipeline cross-border permit may seem to be a symbolic bone throw to the environmental community. After all, the once cause célèbre pipeline project is much less economically viable now than when it...

www.cnn.com

 

[Pens1566]

Interestingly, CNN got one right for once.

Biden's decision to cancel Keystone is one the US will eventually regret | CNN Business

At first glance, President Joe Biden's executive order revoking the 1,200-mile Keystone XL pipeline cross-border permit may seem to be a symbolic bone throw to the environmental community. After all, the once cause célèbre pipeline project is much less economically viable now than when it...

www.cnn.com

Opinion piece that uses the boogeyman of "keystone xl" as an attention grabber, yet only very loosely links it to anything else in his predictions. While completely leaving out that keystone doesn't unleash any new sources on the market, and it's not transporting a type of petroleum that's used here.

Other than that, it's perfect.

 

[Thump553]

Interestingly, CNN got one right for once.

Biden's decision to cancel Keystone is one the US will eventually regret | CNN Business

At first glance, President Joe Biden's executive order revoking the 1,200-mile Keystone XL pipeline cross-border permit may seem to be a symbolic bone throw to the environmental community. After all, the once cause célèbre pipeline project is much less economically viable now than when it...

www.cnn.com

Keystone was a ripoff of epic proportions. The crude oil was from tar sands and is extremely abrasive, so the pipeline will wear out fast and cause that much more risk to the areas it traverses (including a huge and very important aquifer. Secondly the main reason for this pipeline was so Canadian generators of the crude could have easy and cheap access to Texas region refineries which most of the refined products slated for export. We get the risk, we get the pollution and we would get damn few new jobs, if any. The CNN opinion piece of course, cited no facts whatsoever, much less the inconvenient ones.

 

[Brovane]

This is where Democrats suck. They are afraid to confront problems but love to talk about them.
The Justice Department should be sequestering Oil companies records, picking over them and calling executives in to explain the record profits. Simply doing that would lower the cost because all the executives would fear the bad PR/fines and possible jail time if collusion is found.
That is how you use power.

How would that fix the Supply issue? Refiners are running at about 95% capacity right now. If the Democrats question the 1-Million Barrels a day of refinery capacity currently offline, the refiners can point to environmental regulations that forced them to close.

 

[brycejones]

Interestingly, CNN got one right for once.

Biden's decision to cancel Keystone is one the US will eventually regret | CNN Business

At first glance, President Joe Biden's executive order revoking the 1,200-mile Keystone XL pipeline cross-border permit may seem to be a symbolic bone throw to the environmental community. After all, the once cause célèbre pipeline project is much less economically viable now than when it...

www.cnn.com

Did you read it? Do you understand what the current supply constraint is? How does any of it have to do with keystone XL?

 

[outriding]

Keystone was a ripoff of epic proportions. The crude oil was from tar sands and is extremely abrasive, so the pipeline will wear out fast and cause that much more risk to the areas it traverses (including a huge and very important aquifer. Secondly the main reason for this pipeline was so Canadian generators of the crude could have easy and cheap access to Texas region refineries which most of the refined products slated for export. We get the risk, we get the pollution and we would get damn few new jobs, if any. The CNN opinion piece of course, cited no facts whatsoever, much less the inconvenient ones.

One more addition to a great post.. Initially Canada wanted the pipeline to run due east but Canadians thought the risk was too high and they sold the idea to the USA and we decided to accept the risk...

 

[Fanatical Meat]

How would that fix the Supply issue? Refiners are running at about 95% capacity right now. If the Democrats question the 1-Million Barrels a day of refinery capacity currently offline, the refiners can point to environmental regulations that forced them to close.

They’d turn on refineries that were turned off last year. I bet they’d get it done quicker than expected too.
However regardless the point is they need to do something when prices are rapidly increasing and oil companies are reporting record profits. The public just wants executives to be held accountable when shit goes wrong.

 

[Brovane]

They’d turn on refineries that were turned off last year. I bet they’d get it done quicker than expected too.
However regardless the point is they need to do something when prices are rapidly increasing and oil companies are reporting record profits. The public just wants executives to be held accountable when shit goes wrong.

The refiners are closed because the refiners decided it wasn't worthwhile to upgrade them to meet current environmental regulations. Are those environmental regulations going to be suspended?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The refiners are closed because the refiners decided it wasn't worthwhile to upgrade them to meet current environmental regulations. Are those environmental regulations going to be suspended?

Who knows however the point is why are there record profits when plenty are in pain.
Whole bunch of people would like to see an executive who made a 100 million bonus get grilled about why prices are high.
Stop thinking like this game is supposed to be fair because it isn’t.

 

[Brovane]

Who knows however the point is why are there record profits when plenty are in pain.
Whole bunch of people would like to see an executive who made a 100 million bonus get grilled about why prices are high.
Stop thinking like this game is supposed to be fair because it isn’t.

Basic economics, restricted supply equals high prices for refined products. Want to bring down prices, increase supply of refined products.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Basic economics, restricted supply equals high prices for refined products. Want to bring down prices, increase supply of refined products.

Im sure those items will be the top consideration when people vote in November.
Let’s revisit this post when it happens

#sarcasm