Best value "Entry Level" gaming PC.

[Enigmoid]

Yes, with consumer grade components required to run within military specs, wich most are capable of but i wouldnt try such random builds, and reviews dont tell how this will age, likely that it will be short lived sytems.

Btw : You realise that scores of people tested AM1 plateforms and that none did find 44W unless he had a phony set up, so why are you using graphs that are just not credibles.?.

The toms review did. Yes I agree, that was the only one with the celeron on the same graph that I could find quickly.

It was intentionally flawed -- to mimick CBN's equally flawed comparison of AM1 to 1150.

The Sempron 2650 / 3850 / Athlon 5150 / 5350 ARE SYSTEMS ON A CHIP - SOC. Socket 1150 IS NOT.

It really doesn't get simpler than that. Just because AMD socketed a SOC so people had an upgrade path -- doesn't change the fact that it has nothing in common with 1150 architecture. That is the definition of Apples to Oranges.

Except his comparison has some merit. You are deliberately picking overpriced systems ($98 vs $69. The differences are much smaller (power and performance wise) between a 5350 and a celeron. And I fail to see what exactly a SOC means for the average consumer who has no clue what an SOC is. Your comparison isn't good but for some consumers it could be valid (ie for an office machine between BT, Celeron, and FM2+), ultimately the consumer only cares about price, performance, and features that they will use.

The fact of the matter is that the 5350 is simply priced too high.

A J1900 CPU + Mobo combo is $70

http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-Q1900M-...keywords=j1900

The 5350 + cheapest motherboard is $60 + 32 = $92. With a 5150 the price is $82.
Yes the CPU performance and GPU performance is higher but the price is also higher.

Something like a G1610 is $36 + $43 = $79. Sure the motherboard is bigger and the system uses more power. At the same price the above systems will compete with each other.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E0EXSTC/?tag=pcpapi-20
http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=G1610BOX&c=CJ

Then there is the FM2+ platform. $35 + $39 = $74 for the cheapest CPU I could find.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...D=3938566&SID=
http://www.ncixus.com/products/?usa...pn=AD3300OJHXBOX&manufacture=AMD&promoid=1310

At the same price the above systems will compete with each other. What is going to determine the best fit is the individual needs of the consumer. Is electricity important? Is GPU performance important? Is storage important? There is no one size fits all.

Simply looking at the FM2+ platform the CPU cost is too high.

 

[cbn]

The Sempron 2650 / 3850 / Athlon 5150 / 5350 ARE SYSTEMS ON A CHIP - SOC. Socket 1150 IS NOT.

I don't think AM1 being a SOC is an important distinction for desktop. For a phone or tablet, yes having the processor and pch integrated as SOC allows for a larger battery and/or smaller device size. But in a Mini-ITX sized or larger desktop, having a processor as a SOC shouldn't be much if any benefit.

BTW, the G1820 pulls more electricity under load than the 5350 -- but you seem to love glossing over that issue, too.

The fact that G1820 pulls more electricity at load is totally OK and fine for desktop. Why? Because in the desktop form factors we are discussing the thermal differences between G1820 and AM1 are not significant enough to impact cooling in typical value priced gaming enclosures.

 

[cbn]

We could also throw in the G1820 and micro atx board and compare to Athlon 5350 and Micro ATX board.

 

[cbn]

The 5350 mops the floor with the Intel J1900 in anything 3D and for many productivity tasks (Powerpoint, InDesign, 7-Zip). That is the CPU the 5350 was designed to compete against (and the AMD consistently outperforms it for $20 less).

I don't think anyone has brought up testing J1900 for gaming in this thread. (We have discussed J1900 extensively in the other thread however---> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2400691&page=3)

And Athlon 5350 on the cheapest Mini-ITX board is around $20 more expensive than the cheapest J1900, not $20 less expensive.

 

[Abwx]

Agreed -- those numbers seem wildly inconsistent compared to the majority of reviews out there for the 5350:
I have never seen anyone exceed 35 watts, much less 40. My Kill-A-Watt showed 26 watts maximum under
full load on my personal Sempron 3850.

http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/cpu/68473-amd-athlon-5350-28nm-kabini/?page=9

http://www.legitreviews.com/amd-athlon-5350-apu-am1-platform-review_139224/6

http://www.kitguru.net/components/c...b-apu-review-w-sapphire-r7-240-low-profile/9/

The subject has been much discussed, you ll find that for thoses who used ATX PSUs the lower idle numbers where from the sites that got a Bequiet Straight 400.

Best results were from computerbase.de and hardware.info who used pico PSUs and the MSI board at about 8W idling, i got 10.8W with more devices plugged and a more featured card.

The toms review did. Yes I agree, that was the only one with the celeron on the same graph that I could find quickly.

This one is somewhat better :

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/921-6/consommation.html

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Except his comparison has some merit.

The fact of the matter is that the 5350 is simply priced too high.

Simply looking at the FM2+ platform the CPU cost is too high.

His comparison has no merit. Comparing two completely different platforms will never make any sense.

Otherwise, everyone would be cross-shopping Toyota Corollas with Ford F-150's.

The fact of the matter is the 5350 is faster than a J1900, so it can be sold for a premium. Or for the same money as a Baytrail, buy a Sempron 3850 and overclock it. They usually can hit Athlon 5350 speeds anyways:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzZWg2V82QU

I just built an FM2+ Platform for my parents with a brand new $42 A4 (from eBay) and a $35 FM2+ Gigabyte motherboard from Newegg. That's exactly 2 bucks more than the $75 Baytrail motherboard (including shipping cost) from NewEgg that CBN is fixated on. The lowly A4 will completely demolish a J1900 in any task.

"CPU cost is too high" on an AMD platform? What are you smoking, dude? Because I just fell out of my chair for that one.

 

[cbn]

The fact of the matter is the 5350 is faster than a J1900, so it can be sold for a premium.

And the G1820 is faster than the Athlon 5350, but it costs less.

.....And you have brought up the fact that Athlon 5350 is an SOC and therefore is not comparable to G1820, but we are discussing desktop and not worried about how tightly we can package chips in a tablet chassis.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

And the G1820 is faster than the Athlon 5350, but it costs less.

What a revelation: That a single channel SOC developed for third world countries might actually be slower than a dual channel mainstream desktop.
Blasphemy

Do you enjoy repeating yourself over and over again?

But, hey.... Let's keep it going....

And the G1820 is faster than an Arm Cortex A7

And the G1820 is faster than a PowerPC G5 2.0 Ghz

And the G1820 is faster than a Motorola 68000

And the G1820 is faster than a 486DX4/100

Did we miss anything? I was just trying to cover all your Apples to Oranges comparisons if I could.

 

[VirtualLarry]

His comparison has no merit. Comparing two completely different platforms will never make any sense.

Otherwise, everyone would be cross-shopping Toyota Corollas with Ford F-150's.

Sure it makes sense, if they're in the same price bracket. Same with the vehicles, if they're in the same price bracket, and all I need is a vehicle to get from point A to B, then why not cross-shop.

 

[VirtualLarry]

What a revelation: That a single channel SOC developed for third world countries might actually be slower than a dual channel mainstream desktop.

But why would a self-interested desktop consumer pay MORE for the slower CPU? For the "privilege" of owning an SoC?

 

[Shivansps]

Im so tired of this, why people try SO hard to defend AM1 at all cost?! you have no idea how many crap ive hearing since AM1 was launched.

If we are talking about desktop PC its not oranges vs apples, the price range says i can do an AM1, U, Bay Trail, FM2 or 115x. Period.

BT offer best power, FM2 best IGP, 115x best CPU and AM1/U its something in the middle of eveything.

The mayor problem with AM1 its that it just came too late, after Celeron and Pentiums Haswell where released, it was announced when we had no idea of how Haswell GT1 performed, AMD even compared it to a G1610, but it was launched AFTER Haswell.

The end result is, in desktop, a product that perform worse in cpu/igp at a lower tdp and power, and we are talking about the TOP AM1. In desktop, that does not matter 25W or 57+SB its the same damn thing.

It matters on HTPC, and thats the only razonable use, but there are 2 mayor problems, 1) H265 around the corner, 2) it still use more power than BT and its not fanless, for HTPC BT do just as good.

So thats the AM1 problem, it offers a no so important advantage over 115x and FM2 on desktop and its still no passive thats is a important disadvantage over BT on HTPC.

Im just tired of see people arguing triyng to make AM1 work on desktop when its not the best option. I can accept it on HTPC where the ITX, TDP, and power makes sence, but im sick of people pushing that crap over desktop for no reason.

 

[Abwx]

Im so tired of this, why people try SO hard to defend AM1 at all cost?! you have no idea how many crap ive hearing since AM1 was launched.

If we are talking about desktop PC its not oranges vs apples, the price range says i can do an AM1, U, Bay Trail, FM2 or 115x. Period.

BT offer best power, FM2 best IGP, 115x best CPU and AM1/U its something in the middle of eveything.

The mayor problem with AM1 its that it just came too late, after Celeron and Pentiums Haswell where released, it was announced when we had no idea of how Haswell GT1 performed, AMD even compared it to a G1610, but it was launched AFTER Haswell.

The end result is, in desktop, a product that perform worse in cpu/igp at a lower tdp and power, and we are talking about the TOP AM1. In desktop, that does not matter 25W or 57+SB its the same damn thing.

It matters on HTPC, and thats the only razonable use, but there are 2 mayor problems, 1) H265 around the corner, 2) it still use more power than BT and its not fanless, for HTPC BT do just as good.

So thats the AM1 problem, it offers a no so important advantage over 115x and FM2 on desktop and its still no passive thats is a important disadvantage over BT on HTPC.

Im just tired of see people arguing triyng to make AM1 work on desktop when its not the best option. I can accept it on HTPC where the ITX, TDP, and power makes sence, but im sick of people pushing that crap over desktop for no reason.

You had to use a lot of urban legends for this post, you even managed to claim BT as relevant based on power comsumption, never mind that it consume about the same as an AM1 and is not as good in about everything, now this is the fanless argument but without fan the thing doesnt manage to sustain its perfs should the ambiant be too high, most cooler are undersized, try mounting such a card in a box like the Antec...

AM1 is much better than BT and saying otherwise is just aknowledgment that the technical side doesnt matter in respect of what seems to be a brand preference more than anything else.

http://nl.hardware.info/reviews/533...goedkope-desktopplatforms-stroomverbruik-idle

http://nl.hardware.info/reviews/533...topplatforms-stroomverbruik-cinebench-115-max

 

[schmuckley]

Here's what I'd do for bare-bones:
Total:$350

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817438016 PSU

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117374 CPU


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138406 Mobo

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811154109 Case

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA5AD21D9590 HDD

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136270 DVD

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127763 GPU

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231634 1 stick RAM

Idk why you guys are looking @ onboard graphics n stuff..

 

[Enigmoid]

"CPU cost is too high" on an AMD platform? What are you smoking, dude? Because I just fell out of my chair for that one.

Compare it to Baytrail. Similar die sizes, similar platforms. Similar market. The 5350 is about 10-15% more powerful on the CPU side and significantly more powerful on the GPU side.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1223?vs=1227

Yet the price for the CPU lone ($60) is almost as much as the J1900 CPU + Mobo ($70). In fact once you add the mobo its about $93 vs. $70. At $60 it more expensive for the CPU alone than low end pentiums which can be found for $48. Its the same price as the G3258 which likely costs more to produce. The 5350 priced around $50 would be more desirable.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

But why would a self-interested desktop consumer pay MORE for the slower CPU? For the "privilege" of owning an SoC?

Probably because Kabini and Baytrail were never designed for self-interested desktop consumers to begin with. Both of these chips were initially designed for low-power/embedded and tablet markets. You are all grasping at straws -- both Bay Trail and Kabini meet their design goals for their intended purpose. These desktop variants for both are just afterthoughts.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Sure it makes sense, if they're in the same price bracket. Same with the vehicles, if they're in the same price bracket, and all I need is a vehicle to get from point A to B, then why not cross-shop.

Sure it makes sense? Let me see how the Corolla handles putting 1500 lbs of sand in the back end........ But you can't fault the Corolla for doing that task poorly.

Yet the analogy fits well. Bay Trail / Kabini are like a Corolla. Energy efficient little machines good for basic transportation.

But once the payload gets heavy -- they choke (as to be expected). Throw 1500 lbs of sand in the back of a F-150, and it still pulls its weight and handles the heavier workload (just like a Haswell or Kaveri).

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Compare it to Baytrail. Similar die sizes, similar platforms. Similar market. The 5350 is about 10-15% more powerful on the CPU side and significantly more powerful on the GPU side.

So, thank you for proving my point. As you stated, the 5350 is more powerful than Baytrail. So the 5350 generally sells for a premium to it.

Although, as I've already pointed out -- there are J1900 motherboards that are selling at the same price price as a 5350 with a motherboard.

Any questions?

 

[frozentundra123456]

Sure it makes sense? Let me see how the Corolla handles putting 1500 lbs of sand in the back end........ But you can't fault the Corolla for doing that task poorly.

But the analogy fits well. Bay Trail / Kabini are like a Corolla. Energy efficient little machines good for basic transportation.

But once the payload gets heavy -- they choke (as to be expected). Throw 1500 lbs of sand in the back of a F-150, and it still pull its weights and handles its workload (just like a Haswell or Kaveri).

Exactly. Yet, to use your analogy, you have been arguing for innumerable posts exactly *that* i.e. that one should use a corolla to haul 1500 pounds of sand. There is a place for atom/kabini in small point of sale devices for instance, or extremely small form factors, but for conventional desktops they make absolutely no sense, much less as a gaming platform as this thread started out trying to promote.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Here's what I'd do for bare-bones:
Total:$350

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817438016 PSU

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117374 CPU


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138406 Mobo

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811154109 Case

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA5AD21D9590 HDD

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136270 DVD

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127763 GPU

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231634 1 stick RAM

Idk why you guys are looking @ onboard graphics n stuff..

Why would you run a Haswell with single channel memory?

 

[Enigmoid]

So, thank you for proving my point. As you stated, the 5350 is more powerful than Baytrail. So the 5350 generally sells for a premium to it.

Although, as I've already pointed out -- there are J1900 motherboards that are selling at the same price price as a 5350 with a motherboard.

Any questions?

The premium is too high, is what I'm trying to say. $60 is already what a pentium G3258 costs. The 5350 is too expensive compared to that.

 

[AtenRa]

The premium is too high, is what I'm trying to say. $60 is already what a pentium G3258 costs. The 5350 is too expensive compared to that.

They are not directly competing, one is low power entry level SoC the other is Desktop high performance CPU.
Only people in forums like AT directly compare them in relationship to price and completely forget about ATOM based Celerons/Pentiums because of the luck of performance. There are more AMD products directly competing against Intel Socket 1150 Celerons/Pentiums, Kabini is not the one.

 

[frozentundra123456]

They are not directly competing, one is low power entry level SoC the other is Desktop high performance CPU.
Only people in forums like AT directly compare them in relationship to price and completely forget about ATOM based Celerons/Pentiums because of the luck of performance. There are more AMD products directly competing against Intel Socket 1150 Celerons/Pentiums, Kabini is not the one.

They are directly competing in the marketplace because OEMs stuff atom/kabini into desktops and full size laptops. Granted they are a bit more of a fit for craptops, but desktops with them are just a rip-off.

 

[Enigmoid]

They are not directly competing, one is low power entry level SoC the other is Desktop high performance CPU.
Only people in forums like AT directly compare them in relationship to price and completely forget about ATOM based Celerons/Pentiums because of the luck of performance. There are more AMD products directly competing against Intel Socket 1150 Celerons/Pentiums, Kabini is not the one.

You mean high power high performance SOC and entry level low power Desktop chip. (Relative to other SOC's and desktop chips).

 

[cbn]

Sure it makes sense? Let me see how the Corolla handles putting 1500 lbs of sand in the back end........ But you can't fault the Corolla for doing that task poorly.

Yet the analogy fits well. Bay Trail / Kabini are like a Corolla. Energy efficient little machines good for basic transportation.

But once the payload gets heavy -- they choke (as to be expected). Throw 1500 lbs of sand in the back of a F-150, and it still pulls its weight and handles the heavier workload (just like a Haswell or Kaveri).

The problem with your analogy is that a chip being an SOC or not does not add or subtract ultility in a desktop environment.

All that matters is price, performance and noise. (Power is not much of a factor unless it is extremely high and requires extraordinary cooling)

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

The premium is too high, is what I'm trying to say. $60 is already what a pentium G3258 costs. The 5350 is too expensive compared to that.

Completely different market segment. They don't compete directly.