Bernie Madoff 'falls out of bed' in prison

[DrPizza]

The fact that modern science can prove 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt the guilt or innocence of a murderer

Really?!
I agree that there are cases where you can claim "100% beyond a shadow of a doubt" - almost exclusively when someone's caught in the act. But, I'm unaware how modern science is capable of proving something 100%. In fact, I believe that it would be easier now than ever to frame someone for certain types of crimes because the general public has been watching too many episodes of CSI.

 

[jonks]

Godwin claims victory yet again.

Contrary to popular usage, godwin makes no claim as to the appropriateness of the comparison to nazism, merely the inevitability that the comparison will be drawn. As our justice system has redundant controls specifically designed to protect us from government abuses, the very protections Hitler's victims lacked, this particular usage seems apt. That is not to suggest that if the appeals processes the US employs were expedited that masses of people would be suddenly exterminated.

 

[Craig234]

Contrary to popular usage, godwin makes no claim as to the appropriateness of the comparison to nazism, merely the inevitability that the comparison will be drawn. As our justice system has redundant controls specifically designed to protect us from government abuses, the very protections Hitler's victims lacked, this particular usage seems apt. That is not to suggest that if the appeals processes the US employs were expedited that masses of people would be suddenly exterminated.

The corollary about the first person to inappropriately use Nazis in the arguemnt losing it, though, does limit the rule to *inappropriate* use. A valid anaolgy about Nazis does not lost the argument.

 

[Craig234]

His point, though - that people who defend Madoff go ape shit over very much smaller and less important things that touch them personally - is certainly valid. He didn't actually say it was justified, just that if those of us here had been defrauded of their life savings, we would almost certainly not care, and probably celebrate, his being beaten up. Again, I'm not saying it was justified (my position is actually pretty much like Waggy's) but I certainly agree with Fear No Evil's observation. Had I been defrauded I'd be cheering on anyone who beat him up even though in the abstract I agree that prisoners deserve to be protected.

You're projecting your own limitations on principles, much like liars think everyone lies, thieves think everyone steals, and cheaters think everyone cheats.

 

[Craig234]

Uhh... cost more? wtf? The actual act of enforcing capital punishment is relatively cost-less. Now the time, deliberation, and court costs to get to the decision is what costs money. And that's only because of the long and drawn out appeals process we currently have.

I am all for capital punishment. I do know that people have been in prison for decades that are now being found innocent after modern forensic science, ie DNA sampling, has proven them innocent. However, back in the day, more circumstantial evidence was all that was needed to prove guilt. With modern forensic science, and better accounting and culpability for investigators, that has dropped to near zero if not zero incidents. If memory serves me, in order to be convicted of a capital murder charge, there must be at the very minimum now DNA evidence.

The fact that modern science can prove 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt the guilt or innocence of a murderer means that we no longer need a long drawn out appeals processes so that the murderer can find some loophole to escape the full punishment of the law. If changed and instituted, then even this part of the process can bring down costs.

The last part of the costs of killing inmates being so high for most states, is once a capital sentence is handed out, most inmates sit on death row for YEARS, if not decades before being given their punishment. Not so long in Texas at least though. Anyhow, the moment a capital punishment is given, there really is no reason to wait. Just do it.

Finally, the last reason the cost to kill someone is high, is because of all the liberal hippies that complain it isn't "humane" enough. So we spend too much money on making sure the person dies as painlessly as possible. Bleh. A sharp axe, and a quick stroke are about as painless as it really is going to get. Sure it's a bit more gruesome, but to the person dying, it makes little difference. They are dead before the brain can register pain. The only reason we no longer do this is not for the person being killed, but for those hippies that complain that it isn't "humane." That and possibly the cleanup afterward.

Your post is a great example of the type when peopl emake up the facts to fit their ideology and post them as facts, and don't bother to get informed as to whether they're correct.

You want capital punishment tobe a lot cheaper than life in prison, so you just say it is. You are upset that an effort is made to make it humane, so you blame high cost on the 'hippes' who push for it.

The thing is, you're wrong and in bad need of correction.

Now, this isn't about our more important difference, where I say capital punishment is wrong for entirely different reasons. It's about the errors in your post.

In fact, on average, capital punishment is about three times as expensive for the government as life in priso. Not because of the cost of the ''humane' three drugs, but the legal costs of the mandatory appeals.

These are the bare minimum appeals the courts have decided are required for capital punishment under our constitution. Short of getting lawyers to worl for free, you aren't going to change that much.

So, no, you can't keep spewing your false information and defending your position on the false reasons of how cheap it is - you have to defend it based on the fact that it's a lot more expensive.

You should also learn to check the facts before stating them.

 

[dali71]

"Well, the man don't just have to die, Foley. I mean, he could accidentally hurt himself falling down on something real hard, you know? Like a shiv, or my dick?"

 

[ShawnD1]

Isn't there a reasonable compromise without Godwin's law?

Read Zebo's post one more time. He clearly stated in plain english that we shouldn't have prisons and people should just be executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics: "In 2008, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at yearend — 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 31 adults."[7] 2.3 million of those were incarcerated in jails or prisons.[2]

Assuming Zebo is in the US, he is suggesting we kill a minimum of 2.3 million people. If we include people on probation or parole, that number jumps to 7.3 million people. All I stated was that it would take at least 2 years to kill this many people. Germany's first death camp was built in 1933 and they ran until 1945, a total of 12 years. In that 12 year period, roughly 12 million people died, so about 1 million per year. Eliminating 2.3 million US prisoners would take maybe 2-3 years.

 

[Vic]

Read Zebo's post one more time. He clearly stated in plain english that we shouldn't have prisons and people should just be executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States


Assuming Zebo is in the US, he is suggesting we kill a minimum of 2.3 million people. If we include people on probation or parole, that number jumps to 7.3 million people. All I stated was that it would take at least 2 years to kill this many people. Germany's first death camp was built in 1933 and they ran until 1945, a total of 12 years. In that 12 year period, roughly 12 million people died, so about 1 million per year. Eliminating 2.3 million US prisoners would take maybe 2-3 years.

For the reading impaired:

every crime could be meet with capital or corporal punishment.

 

[Zebo]

We could do that, but then the country would go bankrupt because the cost of executing someone is much higher than keeping them in jail for life. If you're talking about killing people without the expensive trial and appeals process, that would be called Auschwitz-Birkenau. It took the Germans about 5 years to kill 1 million people at that camp but I'm sure we could get that down to 2 years with proper funding.

No dude 60% would be let out because drugs should be legal.

Leaving you with 1.5 million.

Next you have murderers. All should die, eye for an eye.

Child molesters and rapists should have thingy cut off.

Thieves who don't need maybe a finger or hand.

Everyone else lashes, number depending on severity of crime.

We could work out exact specifications but very few would be killed. Nothing like Nazi germany.

 

[lothar]

The main question here is why is he even allowed to sleep on a bed at all in the first place?

Such people should be delegated to sleeping on a mat on the floor.

 

[Muse]

I can't condemn this man. I can think of few people who could possibly hate themselves enough to cheat so many decent people on such a scale, and his own fellow Jews. Such a giant piece of shit has to hate himself far far more than he could be hated by the rest of the world. He created and defined his own hell. He can never feel anything but self loathing. Oh Father in heaven let the bitterness in our hearts burn away. Lead us back to the love of out inner being, I pray.

Bernie was a victim of his own success. As former head of NASDAQ he was revered, he'd become one of the hardest things to survive, an American symbol of success. It was too easy for him to set up a Ponzi scheme and IMO he had no intention of doing so, but money came in faster than he needed it. It got to the point where he didn't even have to look for good ways to invest the money entrusted to him and he got lazy and there you go, the seeds were sown and it got out of hand. Maybe he wasn't personally able to deal with the difficulties this all presented. He's an old guy now, and probably didn't have anywhere near the energy to get him out of the mess he'd gotten himself (and all those investors) into. It sucks, it's terrible, but like Moonbeam here, I don't vilify him. There are far worse bastards in this world. However, maybe noone has done a better job of fucking people over financially. I see Bernie as a victim of the circumstances in which he found himself. Yes, he let it happen and he is/was culpable, but I don't for a minute believe he intended to set up a Ponzi scheme. It did happen that way, though, and bigtime!

 

[Muse]

Craig234: Defending the most vile, scum of the earth, in the name of Liberalism

Ah, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

 

[Specop 007]

I disagree with you on this. Whiile the government has the right to punish with imprisonment that is already a very harsh punishment - I'd like to see what you have to say about 'adult day care' after a week of having youru freedom taken away and you being given little more than walls to look at almost 24 hours a day, much less a year - there is no moral right to put a person you have in your custody into harms's way of violence by other prisoners.

It might surprise you to know that I am much more sympathetic to your other point that there's a lot of room to rethink prisons. I've long considered corporal (not capital) punishment in lieu of prison.

If we ARE going to have prisons, I'd lke to see them made much more rehabilitative.

People vastly underestimate the suffering of being imprisoned IMO. And I'm strongly anti-crime.

Cable tv, 3 warm meals, opportunities of college classes, libraries, play time outside......

Oh yeah, sounds fuckin harsh man. I mean hell I'd rather end up in prison in Mexico or India then in the gruesome American prisons.....

 

[Muse]

I wonder many of those people here claiming to care for his safety would feel differently if they were 70 years old, worked their entire lives to save up for a nice retirement, then one day found out they had nothing and their entire working adult life gained them almost nothing. People on AT going apeshit over a retailer not honoring a mistaken 'hot deal'.

And if they then one day hear or read that the dude had the shit beat out of him suddenly they feel better? "Honest men know that revenge does not taste sweet."

And you know what? If you work your entire adult life for nothing more than a comfortable retirement you fucking blew it.

 

[Muse]

No dude 60% would be let out because drugs should be legal.

Leaving you with 1.5 million.

Next you have murderers. All should die, eye for an eye.

Child molesters and rapists should have thingy cut off.

Thieves who don't need maybe a finger or hand.

Everyone else lashes, number depending on severity of crime.

We could work out exact specifications but very few would be killed. Nothing like Nazi germany.

You just want to turn back the clock 1500 years. I've always been grateful I wasn't born back then.

 

[CitizenKain]

Cable tv, 3 warm meals, opportunities of college classes, libraries, play time outside......

Oh yeah, sounds fuckin harsh man. I mean hell I'd rather end up in prison in Mexico or India then in the gruesome American prisons.....

Its funny how no matter what you post about, you are always ignorant about it. Maybe if you took time to learn things instead of being so lazy you could fix that.