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Being pro-life is utterly untenable and stupid
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Fern
Elite Member
It's just a way of being noncommittal and claiming both sides of the issue simultaneously. Unimpressive and spineless.
Fern
BoberFett
Lifer
Leave a one month old baby by itself for a while and see how long it lives. If the issue is dependence on the mother, then post-natal abortion should be perfectly legal until the point at which a human is truly self-sufficient. There would be a lot of dead teenagers if that were the case.
I've stated it on these forums before, but my first memory was when I believe I was still a fetus. I can't tell, but my first memory ever as a human being was "waking up." (I'd almost call it my consciousness awakening.) Feeling intense fear, and "reaching out" into a pink mass. That is it...
I have vivid memories of when I was a toddler, be it 3 or 2 years old. This one was before that and my first memory. I could have been an infant and had a pink blanket on me for all I know, but whatever the case is, I feel today that it happened while I was a fetus.
I do not accept abortion because of it.
I don't care what people want to label me.
I feel the act is disgusting, and ultimately selfish and barbaric.
I have vivid memories of when I was a toddler, be it 3 or 2 years old. This one was before that and my first memory. I could have been an infant and had a pink blanket on me for all I know, but whatever the case is, I feel today that it happened while I was a fetus.
I do not accept abortion because of it.
I don't care what people want to label me.
I feel the act is disgusting, and ultimately selfish and barbaric.
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
Yea, that whole "viable fetus" argument is pretty much ridiculous, since if you take a three year old and put him in Times Square without adult help they'd be dead inside a couple days.
Fern
Elite Member
But isn't that arbitrary?
A question (not directed at you personally), science has made many advances in understanding the brain in the last (almost) 40 yrs since Roe v Wade. What if we can draw the (arbitrary) line at life more precisely now?
To be more specific, we have recently developed a body of work regarding the brain on the subject of consciousness. It is referred to as the "Neural Correlate of Consciousness. See this link:
http://consc.net/papers/ncc2.html
If we can apply these techniques to fetuses in various stages and determine a point where it attains consciousness should we still allow abortions? I don't think it moral, ethical or even legal to kill an innocent conscious human, I question those who do.
Even if that is not the best or most appropriate parameter (human consciousness), shouldn't SCOTUS revisit it's decision in light of scientific advancements?
Fern
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davmat787
Diamond Member
First
Lifer
Except I'm not, at all, and I don't think you could really articulate how if you were pressed to.
Reality and practicality isn't spineless. It's almost common sense at this point. We've evolved.
highland145
Lifer
Except the OP.. MIA peta person.
micrometers
Diamond Member
You yourself admit that it is somewhat arbitrary. Which is honest and I applaud you for that at least.
of course the real problem is malthusian. Most of the problems in the world today are a result of overpopulation. Why is immigration with Mexico such a contentious issue? b/c in Mexico there is not enough for the people there, and as a result they flood north looking for work, and people in the US are unhappy and it is completely understandable IMO. Why is global warming such a problem? because growing populations will continue to consume forests and burn more fossil fuels.
in light of such concrete problems. metaphysical issues like abortion are utterly unimportant.
My God, you're so full of shit. How can you manage to breathe with all that shit spewing from your mouth?
The solution to "overpopulation," as you put it, is not to kill all the fucking babies. Sure, we could go all Jonathan Swift and solve all the problems of hunger and overcrowding in the world. But that is not a moral or ethical option. Personal responsibility is the key, and that has abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with abortion, regardless of which side of the isle you're on.
One thing, however, is for certain: the SCOTUS has no jurisdiction to pass law, and thus RvW has no legal standing. It is political suicide to admit that, though, and so it will never be overturned. Ultimately, the Constitution leaves it up to the States to decide. I suppose it could be argued that the 14th Amendment outlaws abortion at the federal level, but it would be up to the courts to determine whether or not a fetus is protected as a person. In the event the SCOTUS decides that a fetus is not a person, then it would be left up to State legislatures to determine whether the specific medical procedure of abortion is legal or not in their particular states. State medical boards already regulate other medical procedures, such as botox injections, so this should be treated no differently. If, on the other hand, the SCOTUS decides that a fetus is a person, and therefore accorded the appropriate rights and privileges, the act of abortion would be murder just the same as euthenasia.
Whether or not a fetus is alive is a question of science as much as it is a question of philosophy, and is ultimately the key to whether or not abortion is murder or a medical procedure. If it is the former, it is clearly illegal. If it is the latter, it is up to the states to decide whether or not it is allowed.
None of your qualifications for "life" exclude a fetus. You say that it must have a connection with a community...you must never have met a pregnant woman. Baby showers clearly indicate that a fetus has a connection with the community. People aren't buying shit for the mother, they're buying it for the baby. A stillborn child was never technically alive outside of its mother's womb, and yet people bury them with full ceremony and funerals. What about a baby discarded immediately after birth? It was technically alive by every definition of the word, but never had a connection to the community. It was never able to be self sufficient. Would you consider it legal for a mother to throw her newborn baby in a dumpster?
Certainly not. And this is why personal responsibility is the key. Society does not hold the answer to everything. Society is not a magic wand that can make every situation better. If a person has sex and gets pregnant, that person has made a choice and needs to deal with the consequences. Our society, though, rewards bad decisions. There was a thread in here a couple weeks ago about a woman with 12 children by three different men who had no job and no way to provide for the children outside of welfare. Why should society take care of her kids? I'm sure she could have had them aborted, but she didn't. Why are we, as society, rewarding her with a lifestyle where she doesn't have to do anything and everything is given to her, just because she made 12 horrible decisions in her life? Maybe, since they were clearly suffering, we should have just killed them. Better yet, we could have killed half and fed them to the other half. That way, half would still be alive and well fed.
You see where your line of reasoning leads to? Nothing moral and nothing ethical. As a society, we need to put the emphasis back on personal responsibility, and people will start being more responsible.
As a personal anecdote: I know two people...a man and a woman. Both have been in and out of prison their entire lives. Both are drug addicts. The man has a kid by another woman. These two decide to hook up and have a baby. Why? Because the state gives the woman extra food (WIC) and extra money (EBT) if she has a kid. So they have a baby girl (beautiful baby girl, the light of my life). You know what they do next? The girl robs a Kohls and when she gets caught, she runs away leaving her baby girl in the shopping cart in the parking lot. She goes to jail and is out on bail thanks to a family friend of ours (to the tune of a $600/mo payment). You know what she does then? She leaves the baby home and they both go and try to rob a Kohls. They both get arrested and go to jail. She forfeits her bail and our family friend is out all of the bond money. And we get a paniced call one morning saying we need to go to her "apartment" (section 8 housing) to pick up the little girl before the police do so she wont go into CPS. For the last 12 months, both have been in prison. And you know what? They've decided that the first thing they are going to do when they get out is to have another baby. Why? Because it's more free food and more free money. We are still caring for the baby, and we would not trade her for the world. She is absolutely brilliant and a wonder of a child.
This is the society you've created. Abortion was an option, but it was not taken up because we reward them more for having the baby, despite the fact they cannot take care of it. Sure, we can't tell them not to have sex, but we can sure as shit not reward them if they're stupid enough to get pregnant. There are hundreds of charities that provide free birth control to women who want it. You can go to Planned Parenthood in any city and get all the free condoms you want. Nearly every college health center gives free condoms for the asking. There is no reason what so ever that a woman ever needs to get pregnant if she doesn't want to (aside from rape, but we're not talking about rape right now). Abortion is simply another way for people to escape the responsibility of their actions. But, even so, despite all your "reasoning", poor people don't have abortions. The government pays them not to.
This is why abortion for convinience's sake should be illegal. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a fetus is alive, can feel pain, has awareness, is self sufficient, is connected to the community, or any other qualification you'd like to put on it.
Thus, I put to you: the pro-choice position is untenable and illogical.
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Cerpin Taxt
Lifer
Physician, heal thyself!
RvW isn't statutory law. It's legal precedent. The SCOTUS didn't "pass law" when it ruled on RvW, brainiac.
Have you read the 14th amendment? Citizens are "all persons born or naturalized in the United States..."
As noted above, the SCOTUS could not decide this. It would require a Constitutional Amendment.
{snip}
No it isn't. Any biologist will tell you that a fetus is alive. He'll also tell you that sperm cells are alive, and that HeLa cell cultures are alive, and that cancerous tumors are alive, etc, etc...
But you are wrong again. Murder is not the illegal killing of something alive. Murder is the illegal killing of a person. Fetuses are alive, but they are not persons. HeLa cell cultures are also alive, but they are not persons.
{snip}
Abortion is dealing with the consequences. It is the most direct means of restoring the status quo ante following the unconsensual pregnancy.
Because condoms and birth control are 100% effective, right? 🙄
That's like saying the government pays people to commit crimes because it will give them a roof over their heads and three meals a day when they are sent to prison. Should we abolish prisons?
I can assure you that there nothing convenient about having an abortion.
This much is true. It is rather about a woman preserving the same rights to bodily integrity that every other person enjoys, and that anti-choicers would otherwise deny her. It is about freedom and equality, two things to which anti-choice rhetoric only gives lip service.
When it is clear that you do not understand the pro-choice position, it is expected that you would come to false conclusions about it.
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...and the mild irony of strongly held abortion opinions being presented and discussed by an overwhelmingly male membership....
It is a mother's decision to be made.
QuantumPion
Diamond Member
I observe that everyone whom is in favor of abortion have themselves been born.
Atreus21
Lifer
I disagree. It's evolved into a normal abortion debate, where people tend to at the very least admit that infanticide is bad. The OP started by claiming that it was acceptable.
Thumbs up.
Atreus21
Lifer
Should a mother be allowed to kill her infant 5 seconds before it's born?
Says the sanctimonious lazy motherfucker who whores UI and is perfectly capable of working? Man up for once in your life and get a job you fucking loser....
BoberFett
Lifer
And a father's bill to be paid.
Funny how it's a woman's choice, but a man's checkbook.
BoberFett
Lifer
Cry more, bitch.
Oh, and I make far more than you do, you inbred backwoods loser. Now get back to work, I'll be ready for another paid vacation in a couple years.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
I would object to the term "unconsensual pregnancy." If a person consents to sexual intercourse, they thereby consent to the natural biological conditions that could arise from it.
If I consent to drinking from the same glass as someone with a cold, I am consenting to the possibility that I, too, may contract a cold.
"Unintended pregnancy" would be more apt IMO.
I agree with the rest of your post.
dmcowen674
No Lifer
Originally Posted by Ausm 
Says the sanctimonious lazy motherfucker who whores UI and is perfectly capable of working? Man up for once in your life and get a job you fucking loser....
Is this saving the cells?
Says the sanctimonious lazy motherfucker who whores UI and is perfectly capable of working? Man up for once in your life and get a job you fucking loser....
Is this saving the cells?
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