Beginning of the beginning?

[Wahsapa]

Imagine nothingness if you can. No Physics. No science. No space. No colour. No time. Impossible to imagine. If nothing applies there, a place which cannot be described in words, how can something become out of nothingness if noone made it?

i just imagined it. nothing, blank, barren.... nothing. its imaginable, so it must be real. YOU just described it.

you, as either a primitive or advanced being of the universe, must accept that their are things outside of our logic.

like pizza said, what creates the creator. how bout the universe always exsisted. always, can you imagine that? just like you cant imagine nothing?

the simple fact that the universe exist tells us that there has to be a creator. Also how did nothingness come into being? How did the thing that created that small dot that caused the bing bang become.

who says? logic dictates, but logic doesnt explain it all, so it must be flawed. nothing DOESNT come into being, being comes into nothing. what that being is, most likely based on numbers.

Nothingness knows no volume, no colour, no nothing, so how can such a large universe full of everything thats anything but nothing exist without someone creating it?

but what if it has always been? if there is infinity, it surely must be the universe. the big bang is a theory based on logic that something must have started it all but what if it has ALWAYS been which is beyond all logic you can comprehend.

When you die, why do you die in an instant...If only a few cells in your body stop to work, why does your entire body stop at that instant? Why not 5 mins later. If you heart stops, why cant you speak even though the cells are still active?

who says you die in an 'instant'. remember that bit about being unconscious, and you simply dont have any sensory input, its like that. your sensors shut down first, then the rest fails. crick(dna guy) studied heavly into chemical consiousness. chemicals are your being, chemicals are what you are, dictated by the laws of the universe.

1. science doesnt say that the big bang happened, its simply a theory. dot or not, if everything has always been then the theory is wrong, if there was nothing then that dot simply could have been the last universe that didnt make it, or matter from a different universe creating a new universe hence forth to infinity

2. you can just not exsist except thats something you are not able to think about. not exsisting is simply no thought, so thinking about it is being.

3. we're all special. maybe a soul that ways 21 grams, maybe the product of billions of years of mathmatics manifesting itself to create us. we are after all, made of the same things stars are made out of. its called chemical consciousness. we are all one at the same time all being different.

4. doesnt make sense. how are there so many individuals? because they have been brought about thru chemical creation. we came from the stars.

5. the brain is a strange place we do not understand. memory is seems is a complex chain of chemicals. either a) the sperm has a soul and that is memory or b) memory depends on the chemical reactions of your brain.

1 Also Nothing can become of nothing unless someone makes it.

that makes no sense. nothing is nothing, nobody needs to create it.

2 What exists outside the unviverse?

"nothing" all exsistance is within the universe.

And there is no such thing as infinity. There must be sometime that this universe was made. And there is no such thing as infinity. There must be sometime that this universe was made. Like if its still expanding, then why isnt it more bigger if it started before it actually did. Why are we in the specific time that we are in? Just proves that there has to be someone who created. But we cannot recognize him. Infinity only applies to GOD. If you think infinity can apply to the universe, then is it GOD? Its size is not infinity so then how can its size be infinity. Sadly we cannot study anything outside the unverse so we cannot say that Quantum Physics made that particle.

this is an example of something that can superced our logic. the universe is infinity because out side of it we cannot measure, hence, does not exsist.

4 And if someone made us? Why?

and if someone didnt? why not. if we simply are the random that happens, or the mathmatical laws that dictates the universe.

1. Do you agree that matter cannot increase?

first prove to me what matter is made out of.

2. Has anyone been outside the universe?

if they have they brought the universe with them.

3. If there is absolutely nothing. No time no matter, no nothing. Nothingness which cannot be explained in words. How can something appear.

unless of course there has always been something.

4. There is a creator for sure. You can't just assume that something popped up. Just becuase we cant explain/understand god doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

you cant just assume nothing exsisted in the first place.

its 5am, im going to sleep. you started this thread to make yourself feel better.

 

[TuxDave]

Hatim,

I think you need to do a little more research. Your last two assertions were completely wrong:
"Energy cannot be converted into mass"
"We die in an instant"

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: hatim
I however donot have permission to tell much of what I learn/have learned. I am a muslim. Different from most other muslims in beleifs is all I want to tell.

??

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: hatim
I however donot have permission to tell much of what I learn/have learned. I am a muslim. Different from most other muslims in beleifs is all I want to tell.

??

lol... I had the same response. I just let it slide.

 

[The Green Bean]

i just imagined it. nothing, blank, barren.... nothing. its imaginable, so it must be real. YOU just described it.

That is still something. Nothingness cannot be described.


hatim

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: hatim
I however donot have permission to tell much of what I learn/have learned. I am a muslim. Different from most other muslims in beleifs is all I want to tell.

??

lol... I had the same response. I just let it slide.

It's a serious ??, I should've put it in bold.

I'm more curious about this than the actual topic of the thread (metaphysical crap that you need to go learn for yourself by reading and *thinking*).

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: hatim

i just imagined it. nothing, blank, barren.... nothing. its imaginable, so it must be real. YOU just described it.

That is still something. Nothingness cannot be described.


hatim

Try this.

Cover your eyes (not close them) so that it's completely pitch black. Put your mind at rest and clear your thoughts. Now.. let there be light.

Any luck?

 

[Wahsapa]

Originally posted by: hatim

i just imagined it. nothing, blank, barren.... nothing. its imaginable, so it must be real. YOU just described it.

That is still something. Nothingness cannot be described.


hatim

it is not still 'something' just because i use words to describe it that doesnt mean its going against the idea of 'nothing'. it can be said, we have a word for it, 'nothingness'. language is ment to describe thoughts and ideas to transverse the barrier of our own consciousness.

here... look





^ nothing, happy now?

oh how bout this



you hear that? its the sound of NOBODY GIVING A DAMN

 

[Smilin]

Stop busting his balls and drop off the thread.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: hatim

i just imagined it. nothing, blank, barren.... nothing. its imaginable, so it must be real. YOU just described it.

That is still something. Nothingness cannot be described.


hatim

It is not necessary to. You assume that nothingness must somehow be separate from somethingness. One needs the other in order to be. There is no black without white. You must have a nothingness to make somethingness possible.

Here:

"I presume, then, that with my own death I shall forget who I was, just as my conscious attention is unable to recall, if it ever knew, how to form the cells of the brain and the pattern of the veins. Conscious memory plays little part in our biological existence. Thus as my sensation of "I-ness," of being alive, once came into being without conscious memory or intent, so it will arise again and again, as the "central" Self--the IT--appears as the self/other situation in its myriads of pulsating forms--always the same and always new, a here in the midst of a there, a now in the midst of then, and a one in the midst of many. And if I forget how many times I have been here, and in how many shapes, this forgetting is the necessary interval of darkness between every pulsation of light."

"Thus when I am gone there can be no experience, no living through, of the state of being a perpetual "has-been." Nature "abhors the vacuum" and the I-feeling appears again as it did before, and it matters not whether the interval be ten seconds or billions of years. In unconsciousness all times are the same brief instant."

 

[Kibbo]

Originally posted by: hatim

i just imagined it. nothing, blank, barren.... nothing. its imaginable, so it must be real. YOU just described it.

That is still something. Nothingness cannot be described.


hatim

The fact that we have a word that describes nothingness proves that we can conceptualize it. Similarly with perfection. Similarly with infinity. We may not be able to visualize it, or describe its attributes, but that is because it would have no image, or any attributes, except the attribute of having no attributes.

To illustrate, picture a blank page that goes on to infinity in 2 dimensions. That is not nothing, but then conceptualize that there is no white or black or any colour. You can't visualize it, but you can think about it.

 

[ockky]

i just want to point out a couple of things. . .

1) some of you couldn't type a full, complete, readable, english sentence to save your life. please, if you can't 'write', don't try to pass your thoughts on to us because it hurts. . .at least it hurts my head. . .

2) as far as there being a god or not , and the big bang being a crock or not, i personally think that it is alittle sad that the best *god* could come up with is slamming a couple of hydrogen atoms together whilst he was bored to create all of existence (basically by accident). it just seems like he could come up with something alittle more complicated than that. of course, at that point, maybe god was a child and didn't know what he was doing, and it's gotten completely to far outta control for him to fix. . .

and then there is the whole idea of us being made in god's image. . .if this is so, why did he waste his time on all of those other planets/systems/galaxies? (yea, i'm assuming there are other life forms out there) i just don't get why he would be so hell bent on having all of *us* be saved.

AND, if there is a god, what's to say there aren't 50 gods? why can there be only one? (sounds like bullsh!t to me)

And if there is only one god, who's to say that it doesn't take billions of eons for that god to gain knowledge and become intelligent . . . like i said earlier, this whole universe may all be one colossal mistake, which, god still being an infant, hasn't figured out how to fix.

(man i just thought all kinds of crazy stuff)

of course these are all more questions and i don't swing one way or the other

i think the the biggest question of all is why in the hell people are still talking about voting for bush?!

 

[The Green Bean]

mo

 

[carlosd]

We will have many answers abou technology, but not about the meaning of life

 

[Ariste]

Taken from a post I put in a thread here

I've been thinking about this as well. Many people see time as the "4th Dimension." Meaning 4th Spatial Dimension. Meaning we (or something, not necessarily us) can move through it. This seems possible, due to the phenomenon of time dilation at very high speeds. If you can slow down time, who says that you can't just reverse it all-together? Well, if you view time as a spatial dimension, something that is able to be moved through much like the 3 spatial dimensions that we observe every day, then when you really think about it, the universe and everything in it is just *there.* Not always has been, not always will be. Just *there.*

Think of it this way. Bring it down to the dimensions that we can easily experience in real life. 2d and 3d. If you look at two points on a plane, and then walk away from that plane (through a dimension which doesn't exist on that plane), the two points will seem to get closer and closer together until they are just a single point. Now apply that to the 3rd and 4th dimensions. Imagine that you are in a 4d world, and are moving away from two different spheres in a 3d cube through a plane which doesn't exist in the third dimension (time). Isn't it safe to say that the same effect will occur? If you move towards the spheres (forwards in time), they will appear to move farther apart, expanding. If you move away from them (backwards in time), they will appear to move closer together, contracting, until they all eventually form a single point. The Big Bang.

If you look at it that way, you don't need a supernatural being to create everything. It is just there. Not moving forwards in time, not moving backwards in it. Just there. Bring it back down to the 2d and 3d example. If you used two spots on a wall and just backed up and moved forward, the example would work. Now, nobody "created" those spots right? They were always there (if you are thinking about it in the 2d and 3d terms, with the 3rd dimension acting as "time."). You just moved forwards and backwards through "time" to move the spots.

The problem with a lot of the logic used here to justify the need for a sentient being to create the universe (the fact that the universe must have had a beginning) is that people think of time as a constant when, as shown by time dilation, it is not. When you remove the constancy from time, you eliminate the need for a sentient being to create the universe.

Might sound like a rambling idiot babbling out thoughts, but it's just what I thought of late one night a few months ago. Feel free to flame if you think I'm an idiot, cause I mostly likely am

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim
God cannot be explained, so cant nothingess. It knows no dimensions, colours etc. So there aint any point talking abut them becuase we cannot explain them so its better to STFU.

hatim

ain't ain't a real word....

 

[The Green Bean]

time and sound, they are there only becuase we know of it. There is stuff that we don't know about; obviosuly. So the concept of sound and time is still something that is related with the universe, as in anything physical. Anything physical is related to the universe only.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Ariste
Taken from a post I put in a thread here

I've been thinking about this as well. Many people see time as the "4th Dimension." Meaning 4th Spatial Dimension. Meaning we (or something, not necessarily us) can move through it.

Nah, I'm not going to flame. But, I'm a super human. I regularly move through time. In fact, since I started this sentence, I moved from over there to over here (8 seconds away). The only problem is, I always seem to move through time at the same rate... 1 second per second.

 

[Drastion]

If you take a log of wood and burn it, and in the process capture every particle of that piece of wood that has either burned down to ash or smoke you will end up with the same weight that the original piece of wood began at.

Considering this you could think of the universe as that piece of wood. There has always been and always will be the same amont of mass. Just because we can no longer observe that piece of wood as a whole does not mean that it is not there. I think the same applies to the universe. Maybe a big bang did happen and in the process it burned up trillions of tons of matter. The matter did not simply vanish, it just changed it's state. And this could help explain why in quantum physics there seems to be particles jumping around in and out our spectrum of our senses. Those trillions of tons of mass that burned up change their state for a split second when just the right conditions exist and allow us to see them So part of my point is that the same amount of matter has existed forever. Now when I say forever you have to get rid of the idea that time exists. That there was never a beggining and there will never be an end.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim
time and sound, they are there only becuase we know of it. There is stuff that we don't know about; obviosuly. So the concept of sound and time is still something that is related with the universe, as in anything physical. Anything physical is related to the universe only.

I agree... true knowledge is knowing that we know nothing. So if I concede that I cannot prove anything absolutely, you must concede that you cannot prove the existance of a God either.

 

[imported_jb]

don't mess with time theories. that's all it is... 1 second per second. always was and always will be.

i like to think that the universe started from maybe 1 hydrogen atom. (or some particles or some crap) i
would assume that nothingness is just pure energy. surround the atom with energy. it fuses or fisses creating all elements from the one. expanding into the surrounding energy until it slows and collapses. happening again but with more physical matter to fiss and fuse. expanding (big bangs) again and again with more and more stuff. eventually creating enough material for planets and whatnot.

what's at the end of the expanding universe? a crunchy candy coated shell? just maybe some compressed energy balling outwards? it's gotta be flying saucer shaped... <>

the only other universes i'll beleive in is the ones that existed before our big bang and the ones after our bigcollapse.

 

[Giscardo]

.

 

[tinyabs]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim
time and sound, they are there only becuase we know of it. There is stuff that we don't know about; obviosuly. So the concept of sound and time is still something that is related with the universe, as in anything physical. Anything physical is related to the universe only.

I agree... true knowledge is knowing that we know nothing. So if I concede that I cannot prove anything absolutely, you must concede that you cannot prove the existance of a God either.

True, we're just like a five year old child trying to learn the family history from the our grandfather.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim
time and sound, they are there only becuase we know of it. There is stuff that we don't know about; obviosuly. So the concept of sound and time is still something that is related with the universe, as in anything physical. Anything physical is related to the universe only.

I agree... true knowledge is knowing that we know nothing. So if I concede that I cannot prove anything absolutely, you must concede that you cannot prove the existance of a God either.

A smart one. We cannot prove the non-existence of God either which points to the fact that there must be a God. Existence of God is a more sensible theory and therefore it must be proven wrong. All this brings us to another vast(er) discussion. Which God is right. But that cannot be discussed since we cannot explain God. So the next best thing would be to explain God's creation. Then we must accept the fact that God created more than we know about and may/maynot be better than us.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim
time and sound, they are there only becuase we know of it. There is stuff that we don't know about; obviosuly. So the concept of sound and time is still something that is related with the universe, as in anything physical. Anything physical is related to the universe only.

I agree... true knowledge is knowing that we know nothing. So if I concede that I cannot prove anything absolutely, you must concede that you cannot prove the existance of a God either.

A smart one. We cannot prove the non-existence of God either which points to the fact that there must be a God. Existence of God is a more sensible theory and therefore it must be proven wrong. All this brings us to another vast(er) discussion. Which God is right. But that cannot be discussed since we cannot explain God. So the next best thing would be to explain God's creation. Then we must accept the fact that God created more than we know about and may/maynot be better than us.

"If we cannot prove something does not exist, then that is proof that it exists." That is a false statement as is "If we cannot find prove that it exists, then that is proof that it did not exist." Both are fallacious arguments.