Beginning of the beginning?

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim

4. There is a creator for sure. You can't just assume that something popped up. Just becuase we cant explain/understand god doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

Umm.... you seem to already have all your answers if you insist that a creator exists. There is no proof against that theory since everything that is possibly observable can be attributed to His existance.

Originally posted by: CSMR
You should read the Bible some more! Actually it's more like Buddism I think - in style that is. hatim is quite a mystic!

lol... working on it. At first everything was readable (beginning of Matthews), but after a while, my brain started hurting because there were so many metaphors being used. I had no clue what was going on after a while.

Becuase all other theories cannot be applied, there has to be a creator. You will burn your mind but never be able to explain the beginning of the beginning because it is something that we have never seen or will never see. Imagine nothingness if you can. No Physics. No science. No space. No colour. No time. Impossible to imagine. If nothing applies there, a place which cannot be described in words, how can something become out of nothingness if noone made it?

And how could the universe always existed? It is a thing. If that were true, then why was the earth created now and not before? As a matter of fact why does time exist? Eternity is something that can always be applied to god.

Even in the current universe nothing can be made out of nothing. Matter cannot grow. Is is stationary. The universe will therfore not grow in matter, only size. So if not even an extra atom just comes from nowhere, how can such a big universe emerge?

And where is the universe? Is there a bigger system of universes? And where is that system bound to?If there is no concept of time, then either something happens or doesnt happen. Why was only one universe ceated? Why not 2? Why not 100? And if you say there is something outside the universe, then why dont universes collide since they just appear? And if you think there is a galaxy of universes just appearing, then how many galaxies of universes? How many galaxies of galaxies of universes? If there is no time and things would just appear. Be at it becomes then there would be a fixed amount of universes created. They cannot be created one by one because time never existed. The were wither always there, or ....

 

[DrPizza]

to answer your "why not 2? why not 100?", there are acceptable theories that there ARE multiple universes.... although 100 is considerably on the low end of the number of universes. Since you're turning this into a religion thread (I personally believe in a supreme being) but, since you seem unable to accept "how could the universe always existed?" I'll add the following... assume it's impossible for something to have *always* existed. Now, you're pointing your finger at a creator. What created the creator???? You're not going to suddenly say that the universe couldn't have *always* existed, but refuse to apply the same principle to the creator, are you?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
to answer your "why not 2? why not 100?", there are acceptable theories that there ARE multiple universes.... although 100 is considerably on the low end of the number of universes. Since you're turning this into a religion thread (I personally believe in a supreme being) but, since you seem unable to accept "how could the universe always existed?" I'll add the following... assume it's impossible for something to have *always* existed. Now, you're pointing your finger at a creator. What created the creator???? You're not going to suddenly say that the universe couldn't have *always* existed, but refuse to apply the same principle to the creator, are you?

There isnt a way that we will be able to understand the creator. But he has to exist. Why 100? Why not infinity? Why? If they just pop up. But because there is no time, they haveto have popped up from the beginning but thats not possible...

You cannot just assume stupid explainations. The simple fact that the universe exist tells us that there has to be a creator. Also how did nothingness come into being? How did the thing that created that small dot that caused the bing bang become.

Why did the universe come? Just outof nowhere? Not possible? Then this nothingness would haveto be something. To make something of nothing is only God's quality.

Useless discussion becuase there is no way we will be able to prove all this. Simple explaination is that there has to be a creator.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: DrPizza

My favorite discussion was concerning what would happen if you drilled a hole through the center of earth and out the other side, then dropped an object into it. I'm still interested in that problem

If I had to guess, if everything was symmetrical, then the object would fall down, oscillate like a spring and eventually settle in the center of the earth?

Well, as far as we got conclusively, the hole would have to be from the geographic north pole to the south pole (to avoid the coriolis effect. )

As an artificial problem - "ignore air resistance and any other losses of energy" it would oscillate back and forth indefinitely.. falling from the north pole, arriving at the south pole, and returning to the north pole, back and forth.

However, when one DOES factor in air resistance, 1 of 3 situations will occur
a) oscillate back and forth, eventually settling at the center
b) pass the center, and slowly return to the center (if you graphed the distance from the center, it would approach it assymptotically
c) it would slow down and never pass the center.

I'm fairly convinced the answer is (c), but I'm not 100% certain. I discussed the problem at lunch with some physics professors (all phd's) Their immediate answer was it would oscillate back and forth from pole to pole. Then I told them not to ignore air resistance and they were intrigued with the complexity of the problem. They also thought the answer would most likely be (b) or (c), and were leaning toward (c) after my explanation and some brief calculations on a napkin.

Ah... yeah, I forgot about cases b and c. We see those responses in electrical engineering alot under the names of a) Underdamped b) Critically Damped and c) Overdamped. I guess you would need to start solving a 2nd order differential equation, but I don't think it'll be linear. The gravitational pull (while inside the earth) is proportional to the cube of the distance to the center. Matlab anyone?

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim

There isnt a way that we will be able to understand the creator. But he has to exist. Why 100? Why not infinity? Why? If they just pop up. But because there is no time, they haveto have popped up from the beginning but thats not possible...

You cannot just assume stupid explainations. The simple fact that the universe exist tells us that there has to be a creator. Also how did nothingness come into being? How did the thing that created that small dot that caused the bing bang become.

Why did the universe come? Just outof nowhere? Not possible? Then this nothingness would haveto be something. To make something of nothing is only God's quality.

Useless discussion becuase there is no way we will be able to prove all this. Simple explaination is that there has to be a creator.

Is this a highly technical debate or a religious debate? I'm hoping this'll be locked eventually since you summed up this entire thread quite nicely. This is a useless discussion. Just because an explaination is simple does not mean it's correct.

This would be highly technical if you can offer an argument as of why things cannot come from nothing. We gave examples of where we observed such a thing. You seem to ignore all those points.

 

[The Green Bean]

Tux; it doesnt make any sense. Nothingness knows no volume, no colour, no nothing, so how can such a large universe full of everything thats anything but nothing exist without someone creating it?

 

[DrPizza]

hatim.. that it "doesn't make any sense" depends on who the recipient of the knowledge is. I'm sure a lot of things don't make any sense to you. However, it's a horrible mistake to, when faced with something you don't understand or can't explain using current knowledge, attribute that phenomenom to a supreme deity. YES, I *DO* believe in a supreme being. Nonetheless, when science is faced with problems that it cannot explain, you're treading on thin water when you attribute that phenomenom to God. Because, if science says "ah ha!" and realizes a simple solution, you've suddenly seen a "special power" of your God disproved as being attributed to your God. I don't know what religion you do believe in, but I'll provide the Christian Bible as a prime example: There are *numerous* places in the Bible that show it was believed the earth was flat and the center of the universe. For ages, people believed it was all the workings of God, making it rise on one side and set on the other side... But, eventually science explained the roundness of the earth as well as the solar system.... some of the foundation of religion crumbled, because that foundation was built up on an explanation for something that wasn't understood.

Nonetheless, apparently your sole motivation for starting this thread was to turn it into a religious thread, one which is hardly "highly technical." A discussion about the physiology of death, or quantum mechanics would have qualified.. and, perhaps some discussion of religion. But, you started this thread with 4 questions, the answers to which you already "know" are God.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
hatim.. that it "doesn't make any sense" depends on who the recipient of the knowledge is. I'm sure a lot of things don't make any sense to you. However, it's a horrible mistake to, when faced with something you don't understand or can't explain using current knowledge, attribute that phenomenom to a supreme deity. YES, I *DO* believe in a supreme being. Nonetheless, when science is faced with problems that it cannot explain, you're treading on thin water when you attribute that phenomenom to God. Because, if science says "ah ha!" and realizes a simple solution, you've suddenly seen a "special power" of your God disproved as being attributed to your God. I don't know what religion you do believe in, but I'll provide the Christian Bible as a prime example: There are *numerous* places in the Bible that show it was believed the earth was flat and the center of the universe. For ages, people believed it was all the workings of God, making it rise on one side and set on the other side... But, eventually science explained the roundness of the earth as well as the solar system.... some of the foundation of religion crumbled, because that foundation was built up on an explanation for something that wasn't understood.

Nonetheless, apparently your sole motivation for starting this thread was to turn it into a religious thread, one which is hardly "highly technical." A discussion about the physiology of death, or quantum mechanics would have qualified.. and, perhaps some discussion of religion. But, you started this thread with 4 questions, the answers to which you already "know" are God.

Nothing that my religion has said has ever been proven wrong yet.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Nonetheless, apparently your sole motivation for starting this thread was to turn it into a religious thread, one which is hardly "highly technical." A discussion about the physiology of death, or quantum mechanics would have qualified.. and, perhaps some discussion of religion. But, you started this thread with 4 questions, the answers to which you already "know" are God.

So science doesnt have an answer for it. Thats what I was wondering. Becuase western science does not beleive in God.

 

[Shalmanese]

Originally posted by: hatim

Nothing that my religion has said has ever been proven wrong yet.

Including the bit about bats being birds and not mammals?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Shalmanese

Originally posted by: hatim

Nothing that my religion has said has ever been proven wrong yet.

Including the bit about bats being birds and not mammals?

read nothing about that...however: all animals whose ears are visible dont give eggs. They give direct babies.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim
Nothing that my religion has said has ever been proven wrong yet.

:roll: Tell me something that could even come close to proving your religion wrong.

Your reasoning is flawed. "What happens inside black holes?" Light cannot escape? Time slows down at the event horizon? But no one can explain what happens inside a blackhole. There must be a supreme being inside of it. I mean, science has no explaination, and science cannot prove that there's a being inside a blackhole that's somehow regurgitating x-rays back out of it. I'm not bashing your religion, I'm just bashing your deductive reasoning. It does not follow.

What religion are you anyways? You said you're not Christian or Buddhist... the last two possibilities that I know of is Muslim or Hindu.

Oh.. then there's the Shinto religion... can't think of any other popular religions.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim
Nothing that my religion has said has ever been proven wrong yet.

:roll: Tell me something that could even come close to proving your religion wrong.

Your reasoning is flawed. "What happens inside black holes?" Light cannot escape? Time slows down at the event horizon? But no one can explain what happens inside a blackhole. There must be a supreme being inside of it. I mean, science has no explaination, and science cannot prove that there's a being inside a blackhole that's somehow regurgitating x-rays back out of it. I'm not bashing your religion, I'm just bashing your deductive reasoning. It does not follow.

What religion are you anyways? You said you're not Christian or Buddhist... the last two possibilities that I know of is Muslim or Hindu.

Oh.. then there's the Shinto religion... can't think of any other popular religions.

Never read anything about that yet either. That is something science might be able to explain...I know for sure that there must be something about black holes in my religion but I havent got the chance to read it.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Nonetheless, apparently your sole motivation for starting this thread was to turn it into a religious thread, one which is hardly "highly technical." A discussion about the physiology of death, or quantum mechanics would have qualified.. and, perhaps some discussion of religion. But, you started this thread with 4 questions, the answers to which you already "know" are God.

So science doesnt have an answer for it. Thats what I was wondering. Becuase western science does not beleive in God.

If that's all you're wondering, then as far as I know, science does not know what happened at the exact moment of the proposed big bang and no knowledge as to what happened prior to it. There is only speculation at this point.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim
Nothing that my religion has said has ever been proven wrong yet.

:roll: Tell me something that could even come close to proving your religion wrong.

Your reasoning is flawed. "What happens inside black holes?" Light cannot escape? Time slows down at the event horizon? But no one can explain what happens inside a blackhole. There must be a supreme being inside of it. I mean, science has no explaination, and science cannot prove that there's a being inside a blackhole that's somehow regurgitating x-rays back out of it. I'm not bashing your religion, I'm just bashing your deductive reasoning. It does not follow.

What religion are you anyways? You said you're not Christian or Buddhist... the last two possibilities that I know of is Muslim or Hindu.

Oh.. then there's the Shinto religion... can't think of any other popular religions.

Never read anything about that yet either. That is something science might be able to explain...I know for sure that there must be something about black holes in my religion but I havent got the chance to read it.

Name of your religion = ?. Seems like a very unique religion if you believe it'll address black holes.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: hatim
Nothing that my religion has said has ever been proven wrong yet.

:roll: Tell me something that could even come close to proving your religion wrong.

Your reasoning is flawed. "What happens inside black holes?" Light cannot escape? Time slows down at the event horizon? But no one can explain what happens inside a blackhole. There must be a supreme being inside of it. I mean, science has no explaination, and science cannot prove that there's a being inside a blackhole that's somehow regurgitating x-rays back out of it. I'm not bashing your religion, I'm just bashing your deductive reasoning. It does not follow.

What religion are you anyways? You said you're not Christian or Buddhist... the last two possibilities that I know of is Muslim or Hindu.

Oh.. then there's the Shinto religion... can't think of any other popular religions.

Never read anything about that yet either. That is something science might be able to explain...I know for sure that there must be something about black holes in my religion but I havent got the chance to read it.

Name of your religion = ?. Seems like a very unique religion if you believe it'll address black holes.

The more I study, the more I get to study, Im sure there will be mention of everything from blackholes to red dwarfs...But I just begninning the journey into greater knowledge. I however donot have permission to tell much of what I learn/have learned.

I am a muslim. Different from most other muslims in beleifs is all I want to tell. However basic actions are the same. Only belifs make sense.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: hatim

I am a muslim. Different from most other muslims in beleifs is all I want to tell. However basic actions are the same. Only belifs make sense.

Very interesting. Shows that I know very little of the Muslim religion. Good luck in your studies.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

What if our perception of time is flawed and there was never a beginning?

 

[Cattlegod]

Couple points.

It is also possible that the universe has always existed and has not always existed at the same time. There are some theories that suggest that time was created when the universe was created. This means that the idea of "Before the universe" is null, because there is no such thing as before the universe. The problem is, most everyone does not comprehend the correct definition of time. Most see it as pages in a never-ending book, there is forward and backward (i.e. each page in the book is a different instance in time). That however is not the case; think of time as a rubber sheet with spikes, waves, and deformities all over it. That sheet represents space and time is represented by the z-axis deformities. This means that things that are in the future and past exist simultaneously on this rubber sheet of space-time. It is a very complex beast, and it is the notion of time that sends most people astray when thinking about the "before" of everything.

Also, on the note mentioned above, someone said that mass couldn't be changed into energy. Well, that is simply false, that is exactly what happens in a nuclear explosion. Also on the point of the universe just *popping* into existence, think of consciousness. You, sitting there have a distinct notion of self-awareness, how did this come to be? You were not always self aware, it just happened.

Another analogy I like to put with the universe is the Internet. No one can seem to picture how large the universe is and where it ends, it tends to confuse people when they attempt to comprehend it. I like to compare it to the Internet. You can ask the same questions about the Internet, how big is it? Where does it end? The questions can be equally as confusing for the Internet if put into that mind frame. The Internet is finite, yet it has no bounds.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
Couple points.

It is also possible that the universe has always existed and has not always existed at the same time. There are some theories that suggest that time was created when the universe was created. This means that the idea of "Before the universe" is null, because there is no such thing as before the universe. The problem is, most everyone does not comprehend the correct definition of time. Most see it as pages in a never-ending book, there is forward and backward (i.e. each page in the book is a different instance in time). That however is not the case; think of time as a rubber sheet with spikes, waves, and deformities all over it. That sheet represents space and time is represented by the z-axis deformities. This means that things that are in the future and past exist simultaneously on this rubber sheet of space-time. It is a very complex beast, and it is the notion of time that sends most people astray when thinking about the "before" of everything.

Also, on the note mentioned above, someone said that mass couldn't be changed into energy. Well, that is simply false, that is exactly what happens in a nuclear explosion. Also on the point of the universe just *popping* into existence, think of consciousness. You, sitting there have a distinct notion of self-awareness, how did this come to be? You were not always self aware, it just happened.

Another analogy I like to put with the universe is the Internet. No one can seem to picture how large the universe is and where it ends, it tends to confuse people when they attempt to comprehend it. I like to compare it to the Internet. You can ask the same questions about the Internet, how big is it? Where does it end? The questions can be equally as confusing for the Internet if put into that mind frame. The Internet is finite, yet it has no bounds.

mass can be changed to energy....energy cant be changed to mass

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
Couple points.

It is also possible that the universe has always existed and has not always existed at the same time. There are some theories that suggest that time was created when the universe was created. This means that the idea of "Before the universe" is null, because there is no such thing as before the universe. The problem is, most everyone does not comprehend the correct definition of time. Most see it as pages in a never-ending book, there is forward and backward (i.e. each page in the book is a different instance in time). That however is not the case; think of time as a rubber sheet with spikes, waves, and deformities all over it. That sheet represents space and time is represented by the z-axis deformities. This means that things that are in the future and past exist simultaneously on this rubber sheet of space-time. It is a very complex beast, and it is the notion of time that sends most people astray when thinking about the "before" of everything.

Also, on the note mentioned above, someone said that mass couldn't be changed into energy. Well, that is simply false, that is exactly what happens in a nuclear explosion. Also on the point of the universe just *popping* into existence, think of consciousness. You, sitting there have a distinct notion of self-awareness, how did this come to be? You were not always self aware, it just happened.

Another analogy I like to put with the universe is the Internet. No one can seem to picture how large the universe is and where it ends, it tends to confuse people when they attempt to comprehend it. I like to compare it to the Internet. You can ask the same questions about the Internet, how big is it? Where does it end? The questions can be equally as confusing for the Internet if put into that mind frame. The Internet is finite, yet it has no bounds.

mass can be changed to energy....energy cant be changed to mass

 

[Cattlegod]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
......

mass can be changed to energy....energy cant be changed to mass

Actually, energy can also be converted into mass. It takes a significant amount of energy to create mass, but it is possible. A gamma photon that grazes a heavy atomic nucleus will produce an electron-positron pair in a particle accelerator.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Cattlegod

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
......

mass can be changed to energy....energy cant be changed to mass

Actually, energy can also be converted into mass. It takes a significant amount of energy to create mass, but it is possible. A gamma photon that grazes a heavy atomic nucleus will produce an electron-positron pair in a particle accelerator.

And, don't forget in a particle accelerator, they take that electron and positron, accelerate them in opposite directions to a very high energy (kinetic energy), and smash them into each other... This creates some even more massive objects (far more than the rest mass of the electron and positron)

 

[The Green Bean]

another Q

When you die, why do you die in an instant...If only a few cells in your body stop to work, why does your entire body stop at that instant? Why not 5 mins later. If you heart stops, why cant you speak even though the cells are still active?

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: hatim
another Q<BR><BR>When you die, why do you die in an instant...If only a few cells in your body stop to work, why does your entire body stop at that instant? Why not 5 mins later. If you heart stops, why cant you speak even though the cells are still active?

Actually, if the heart stops, you can be consciously aware of it. Fatal heart attack victims will clutch their chest. Also, you could be pierced through the heart with a bullet, but remain conscious for several seconds. (about 10)

This is often the case when hunting.. I've seen several deer that have been shot through the heart, virtually exploding the heart within the chest cavity.... yet those deer are capable of running as much as 100 yards before collapsing. (which is just a couple of seconds) And, yes I know they've been shot through the heart.. when gutting a deer, the heart and liver are two organs that are saved by most of the hunters I know. The preferred shot is through the lungs, which is just as effective (and the lungs provide a larger target)

Ironically, most of our images of people dying come from movies and television... a place where a lot of extra drama is added, regardless of its accuracy. (people do NOT go flying back when shot.)