Before you pack for Ottawa

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0


PULL QUOTE:

The anti-Americanism I experience generally takes this form: Canadians bring up "the States" or "Americans" to make comparisons or evaluations that mix a kind of smug contempt with a wariness that alternates between the paranoid and the absurd.
==========================================

washingtonpost.com
Before You Flee to Canada, Can We Talk?
By Nora Jacobson
Sunday, November 28, 2004; Page B02

TORONTO

I moved to Canada after the 2000 election. Although I did it mainly for career reasons -- I got a job whose description read as though it had been written precisely for my rather quirky background and interests -- at the time I found it gratifying to joke that I was leaving the United States because of George W. Bush. It felt fine to think of myself as someone who was actually going to make good on the standard election-year threat to leave the country. Also, I had spent years of my life feeling like I wasn't a typical American and wishing I could be Canadian. I wanted to live in a country that was not a superpower, a country I believe to have made the right choices about fairness, human rights and the social compact.

So I could certainly identify with the disappointed John Kerry supporters who started fantasizing about moving to Canada after Nov. 2. But after nearly four years as an American in the Great White North, I've learned it's not all beer and doughnuts. If you're thinking about coming to Canada, let me give you some advice: Don't.

Although I enjoy my work and have made good friends here, I've found life as an American expatriate in Canada difficult, frustrating and even painful in ways that have surprised me. As attractive as living here may be in theory, the reality's something else. For me, it's been one of almost daily confrontation with a powerful anti-Americanism that pervades many aspects of life. When I've mentioned this phenomenon to Canadian friends, they've furrowed their brows sympathetically and said, "Yes, Canadian anti-Americanism can be very subtle." My response is, there's nothing subtle about it.

The anti-Americanism I experience generally takes this form: Canadians bring up "the States" or "Americans" to make comparisons or evaluations that mix a kind of smug contempt with a wariness that alternates between the paranoid and the absurd.

Thus, Canadian media discussion of President Bush's upcoming official visit on Tuesday focuses on the snub implied by his not having visited earlier. It's reported that when he does come, he will not speak to a Parliament that's so hostile it can't be trusted to receive him politely. Coverage of a Canadian athlete caught doping devolves into complaints about how Americans always get away with cheating. The "Blame Canada" song from the "South Park" movie is taken as documentary evidence of Americans' real attitudes toward this country. The ongoing U.S. ban on importing Canadian cattle (after a case of mad cow disease was traced to Alberta) is interpreted as a form of political persecution. A six o'clock news show introduces a group of parents and children who are convinced that the reason Canadian textbooks give short shrift to America's failed attempts to invade the Canadian territories in the War of 1812 is to avoid antagonizing the Americans -- who are just waiting for an excuse to give it another try.

My noisy neighbors revel in Canada's two hockey golds at the 2002 Olympics because "We beat the Americans in America!" The first gay couple to wed in Ontario tells the press, before they say anything else, that they are glad they don't live in the United States. A PR person at the hospital where I work, who has been eager to talk to me about a book I've published, puts down her pen when she learns that I'm American and that the book is nearly devoid of "Canadian content."

More seriously, in the wake of 9/11, after the initial shock wore off, it was common to hear some Canadians voice the opinion that Americans had finally gotten what they deserved. The attacks were just deserts for years of interventionist U.S. foreign policy, the increasing inequality between the world's poorest nations and the wealthiest one on earth, and a generalized arrogance. I heard similar views expressed after Nov. 2, when Americans were perceived to have revealed their true selves and thus to "deserve" a second Bush term.

Canadians often use three metaphors to portray their relationship with the United States. They describe Canada as "sleeping with an elephant." Even when the elephant is at rest, they worry that it may suddenly roll over and crush them. They refer to the U.S.-Canadian border as "the longest one-way mirror in the world" -- Canadians peer closely at Americans, trying to make sense of their every move, while the United States sees only its own reflection. Finally, they liken Canada to a gawky teenage girl with a hopeless crush on the handsome and popular boy next door. You know, the one who doesn't even know she exists.

The self-image conveyed in these metaphors is timid and accommodating. Perhaps this is how Canadians see themselves (or would like to be seen), but my experience is that they are extremely aggressive (if somewhat passively so) when it comes to demonstrating their deep ambivalence toward Americans. Take the popular TV show "Talking to Americans," which simultaneously showcases Americans' ignorance about Canada and mocks Canadians' unhealthy preoccupation with what Americans really think of them. Of course, there's often something of the stalker in that gawky teenage girl, isn't there?

Part of what's irksome about Canadian anti-Americanism and the obsession with the United States is that it seems so corrosive to Canada. Any country that defines itself through a negative ("Canada: We're not the United States") is doomed to an endless and repetitive cycle of hand-wringing and angst. For example, Canadians often point to their system of universal health care as the best example of what it means to be Canadian (because the United States doesn't provide it), but this means that any effort to adjust or reform that system (which is not perfect) precipitates a national identity crisis: To wit, instituting co-payments or private MRI clinics will make Canada too much like the United States.

The rush to make comparisons sometimes prevents meaningful examination of the very real problems that Canada faces. (For me, it has become the punch line of a private joke that whenever anything bad happens here, the first response is a chagrined cry of "But we're Canadian!" -- the "not American" can be inferred.) As a Canadian social advocate once told me, when her compatriots look at their own societal problems, they are often satisfied once they can reassure themselves that they're better off than the United States. As long as there's still more homelessness, racism and income inequality to the south, Canadians can continue to rest easy in their moral superiority.

Many Canadians have American relatives or travel frequently to the United States, but a large number are pretty naive about their neighbors to the south. A university student confidently told me that there had been "no dissent" in the United States during the run-up to the Iraq war. Toronto boosters argue that American cities lack the ethnic diversity found in Canada's largest metropolis. The author of a popular book on the differences between the Canadian and American characters (a topic of undying interest here) promotes the view that Americans are all authority-loving conformists.

Ultimately, Canadian anti-Americanism says more about Canada than it does about the United States. Because some 80 to 90 percent of this country's trade is with the United States, the reality is that Canadians need Americans to sustain their economy and thus the quality of life they value. Such dependence breeds resentment. In "officially multicultural Canada," hostility toward Americans is the last socially acceptable expression of bigotry and xenophobia. It would be impossible to say the things about any other nationality that Canadians routinely say -- both publicly and privately -- about Americans. On a human level, it can be rude and hurtful. (As it was on the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, when an acquaintance angrily told me that she would now have to curtail her travel plans because she was afraid she might be mistaken for an American.) And there's no way to argue against it. An American who attempts to correct a misconception or express even the mildest approval for the policies of U.S. institutions is likely to be dismissed as thin-skinned or offensive, and as demonstrating those scary nationalistic tendencies that threaten the world.

I felt a strong tug toward America when the borders shut for several hours on the afternoon of 9/11, and again after the election this month. Canadian friends were honestly shocked when I, a caricature of a bluestocking blue-stater (I've spent most of my life in Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland and Wisconsin, with short stays in Washington state and the bluest part of Colorado), said that I would in many ways prefer to live in the United States, and not just because it's home. They assume that it's better, more comfortable, to be in a place seemingly more in tune with one's own political and philosophical leanings. Right after the election, many asked me if I would now apply for Canadian citizenship.

I don't intend to do that, because experiencing the anti-Americanism I've described has been instructive: Living here and coping with it has forced me to confront my own feelings about America. And it's helped me discover what I do value about it: its contradictions, its eccentricities, its expansive spirit, all the intensity and opportunity of a deeply flawed, widely inconsistent, but always interesting country. Perhaps I am a typical American, after all.

Author's e-mail:

nora_jacobson@hotmail.com

Nora Jacobson is an American medical sociologist living in Toronto.

© 2004 The Washington Post Company




 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
My 2 residences are in California and Massachusetts, WTF would I want to move to the frozen tundra of Canada? Because the Dub won? Give me a break!
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
My 2 residences are in California and Massachusetts, WTF would I want to move to the frozen tundra of Canada? Because the Dub won? Give me a break!

Maybe I didn't mean you, Dawn. Infohawk, on the other hand, could surely use a little fresh frozen air.

 

aswedc

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 2000
3,543
0
76
I found that article completely unconvincing. Surely there is more to living somewhere then whether they complain about another country. If all you care about is the pride of the United States, WTF are you doing in Canada anyway? Just as an example, one of her points is that a university student thought there was no dissent to the Iraq war. WTF? Oh, so you mean to tell me that theres a possibility youth might not be politically informed? How about the US for uninformed, where 50% think that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 and that George W. Bush is on a mission from God! There are some news networks that cater to anti-American audiences? No really? Here we have an entire 24 hour cable channel devoted to being anti-everything but America!
 

RealityTime

Senior member
Oct 18, 2004
665
0
0
Go to any country other than the usa, and you will find those same sentiments. It's nothing unique to Canada. ;)
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
In "officially multicultural Canada," hostility toward Americans is the last socially acceptable expression of bigotry and xenophobia. It would be impossible to say the things about any other nationality that Canadians routinely say -- both publicly and privately -- about Americans. On a human level, it can be rude and hurtful.
As a Canadian and having lived in this country for 23 years, I can personally attest that much of what it said in that article is true. A friend of mine is a recent American expatriate who moved to Canada when GW Bush won in 2000. She, a hardcore Democrat, tells me that she's found the anti-Americanism pretty hard to deal with - especially in the hall of our university but also elsewhere. Be wary - Canada is not the promised land of multiculturism that people think it is; at least for our closest ally.
 

Kntx

Platinum Member
Dec 11, 2000
2,270
0
71
So he doesn't like the USA and he doesn't like Canada... where to now Nora ?!?!?
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: RealityTime
Go to any country other than the usa, and you will find those same sentiments. It's nothing unique to Canada. ;)

Absolutely, you are infamous all around the world! Nobody likes you! Not even the brits...
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: yllus
In "officially multicultural Canada," hostility toward Americans is the last socially acceptable expression of bigotry and xenophobia. It would be impossible to say the things about any other nationality that Canadians routinely say -- both publicly and privately -- about Americans. On a human level, it can be rude and hurtful.
As a Canadian and having lived in this country for 23 years, I can personally attest that much of what it said in that article is true. A friend of mine is a recent American expatriate who moved to Canada when GW Bush won in 2000. She, a hardcore Democrat, tells me that she's found the anti-Americanism pretty hard to deal with - especially in the hall of our university but also elsewhere. Be wary - Canada is not the promised land of multiculturism that people think it is; at least for our closest ally.
Sheesh, if someone moves to Canada because a thick tongued muddle minded handpuppet became president then he/she is to sensitive for their own good and will have a hard time no matter where they live.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
For me, it's been one of almost daily confrontation with a powerful anti-Americanism that pervades many aspects of life.

Canadians are absolutely obsessed with the US and, IMO, are one of the most nationalistic people when talking about the United States. It was very sickening.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: RealityTime
Go to any country other than the usa, and you will find those same sentiments. It's nothing unique to Canada. ;)

Um, no. Canada takes it to a whole new level - its entire 'culture' is based on the obsession of the United States. It has developed a national inferiority complex through this obsession.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
For example, Canadians often point to their system of universal health care as the best example of what it means to be Canadian (because the United States doesn't provide it), but this means that any effort to adjust or reform that system (which is not perfect) precipitates a national identity crisis

I've been saying this for a while. It's been a very successful propaganda effort to make it part of the Canadian identity. The elite win, everyone else thinks they win when they actually lose.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
I have no idea why there is an anti-american sentiment in Canada...
I personally like discussing with americans global issues and policy, that's why im here.

I'd probably make a point that Canadians tend to be more compassionate, left leaning...Americans may be too extreme for Canadians.

Like if you proposed private healthcare here...it would be looked down on severely. There is a very communal sentiment here, i guess with such a diversified population we have to be. (ie. Newfoundland's unemployment is 4 times Ontario's)

Another reason could be that phase of Canadian jokes on tv. We get a lot of american broadcasting...and there were a lot of uninformed jokes...like that we live in igloos and stuff. This does not help the percieved intelligence factor.

All in all it is a good place to live, the climate is a little less than ideal...but i recommend to anyone...i would like to see the anti-american sentiment die down a bit.

I actually find myself defending bush's policies at some points as there is a very large antibush population here.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Stunt

I actually find myself defending bush's policies at some points as there is a very large antibush population here.
As there is here in the States.

 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Stunt

I actually find myself defending bush's policies at some points as there is a very large antibush population here.
As there is here in the States.

But even more so...as all three major parties here are socially liberal.
You are hard pressed to find a social conservative in Canada.

So right out of the gates you have 80-90% taking the dem side.
Then if you look back at dem terms, they were somewhat fiscally responsible, were decent with spending and encouraged trade. All things typical of a right leaning party.

So i can see Canadians all fitting into the dem, green and nader areas, just based on values and principles.

That is precisely why i am a Canadian conservative, but was pro-Kerry.

There are a lot of people who would just never vote Republican...that's where a lot of the antibush stuff comes from. That and he is an easy target as everythign seems to be going downhill...and his bushisms.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
I have no idea why there is an anti-american sentiment in Canada...

I believe that a large portion of it is due to envy and a massive inferiority complex. Much of the Canadian identity and culture is now focused upon it. It was so sickening to live in it. Thankfully not everyone in Canada suffers from such an affliction.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
For example, Canadians often point to their system of universal health care as the best example of what it means to be Canadian (because the United States doesn't provide it), but this means that any effort to adjust or reform that system (which is not perfect) precipitates a national identity crisis

I've been saying this for a while. It's been a very successful propaganda effort to make it part of the Canadian identity. The elite win, everyone else thinks they win when they actually lose.

Umm. . . How do the elite win? I don't deny that our view of our healthcare system does have blinders on, I've said so myself a few times on this forum. But I'm having difficulty seeing how that benefits the elite.

And we don't worship the Queen, we barely think about her.

That being said, except for some minor overstatements, the article was on balance accurate.

One thing I disagree with:

anadians often use three metaphors to portray their relationship with the United States. They describe Canada as "sleeping with an elephant." Even when the elephant is at rest, they worry that it may suddenly roll over and crush them.


What I disagree with is the assertion that this is irrational. The author in the OP failed to finish the quote about the elephant, which ends with "no matter how good-natured or even tempered the beast, one is affected by every twitch and grunt." This is true. The smallest change in trade or border policy affects every Canadian. 80-90% of our trade is with you, and 1/3 of our economy is based on trade. We are put out of work when Greenspan sneezes. Every Canadian has friends, brothers, uncles, parents in the US. We are scared when you want to fingerprint us at the border. You might say that we should be less dependent on you. Thing is, you are the only nation we border. Who else are we going to trade with? Your currently low dollar is helping us diversify our exports, but that will always be a marginal effect. It's a problem of geography: we are next door to the richest market in the world. It would be stupid to ignore that.

Canadians are absolutely obsessed with the US and, IMO, are one of the most nationalistic people when talking about the United States. It was very sickening.

I agree that we are "one of the most nationalistic people when talking about the US." I also agree that this in some cases leads to anti-Americanism, and that this is unfortunate. But our "obsession" with the US is rational. It's neccessary. And any instance of irrationality you could point to could likely be matched with a comparable irrationality on the same topic by 10 Americans.

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Anti-American sentiment in Canada runs pretty deep, but the author of the article is also falling back on American nationalistic tendencies.

For example, she (I'm assuming Nora is a she) misinterprets, for the most part, the causal analysis of 9/11. Terrorism is an inherently rational act, even when perpetrated by an irrational attacker, and is normally calculated to produce a particular effect (namely, to generate fear). When you are the target of terrorism, it behooves you to take stock of why this might have happened; to claim that American foreign policy had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks is extremely ignorant; it should be easy to understand this, and it does not require making a value judgement about the relevent foreign policy in order to do this.

Personally - and my view reflects the view of many Canadians - I think American foreign policy has a tendency towards heavy-handedness, and I can understand how it would lead to resentment. Is it 'wrong'? I don't know; a lot of it comes down to the differential value you place on your own interests relative to the interests of others (and we all know that our own interests come first; it's a matter of 'by how much').

I also think it is unavoidable to conclude that America's choice of policies in over the last few years have exacerbated anti-American sentiment. Right or wrong, the benefits of unilateral action (no need to 'compromise') have to be balanced with the expected resentment of explicitly choosing not to value the opinions of allies. Just as our (former) prime minister elected to walk his own path on foreign policy, criticizing the invasion of Iraq heavily, and undeniably weakening Canadian-American relations, the invasion of Iraq in itself required America to choose weakened relations with dissenting countries in return for the ability to completely control foreign policy. In either case it would be highly ego-centric to expect the policy choice not to carry with it the implied foreign relations effects. Sadly, ego-centrism (though of slightly different sorts) is something Americans and Canadians are both pretty darn good at.

Back to the article for a moment: Toronto is a great city, with its own set of serious problems, most of which are analogous to the problems of 'diverse' cities all over the world, including American ones. If you want to talk about ghettoes, race-relations (especially WRT law enforcement), poverty, homelessness, etc, then Toronto has plenty of dirty laundry.

It does however place greater emphasis on respecting and celebrating diversity, compared with virtually any other city on the world; for the author to attack this particular source of 'pride' (pun intended, for those in the know) displays either a lack of knowledge on the subject, or an implicit value judgement that such diversity need not (or should not) be celebrated. Our annual schedule of festivities gives everyone in the city a chance, for a week (or a weekend) to be black, greek, gay, a connoiseur of international jazz music, and the list goes on. I think it's a mistake for Canadians to take pride in multiculturalism relative to anyone else; we have a long way to go in terms of tolerance and understanding, but what we've accomplished so far is worthy of some pride, regardless of what is happening elsewhere.

 

RealityTime

Senior member
Oct 18, 2004
665
0
0
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: Stunt
I have no idea why there is an anti-american sentiment in Canada...

I believe that a large portion of it is due to envy and a massive inferiority complex. Much of the Canadian identity and culture is now focused upon it. It was so sickening to live in it. Thankfully not everyone in Canada suffers from such an affliction.

Don't flatter yourself. We are afraid is all, who wouldn't be with a madman just south of our border in charge of the largest cache of killing machines and weapons in the world. And to enlighten you, much of the Canadian aversion to america has nothing to do with the people there, many of us, myself included have many friends and relatives who live there. Many of my relatives were born there. Our main fear/aversion is because of bush, not the people at large. Although it is true that we are left-leaning up here, compassion is more our mainstay. We have a much more European mindset. Whereas the usa is a secular, you must assimilate sort of place. But please, don't flatter yourself, you are not the envy of anyone, except perhaps the most unfortunate people of this world, who lack good food, clean water, and a decent place to live. Much of the world abhors the notion of being an american. It's that very mindset among some of your countrymen, that you are envied, that also aids in fostering the aversion. Get over it. Check out the ratings on the best places in the world to live. The u.s. doesn't make the top 10. Get over it.

 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: RealityTime
Don't flatter yourself. We are afraid is all, who wouldn't be with a madman just south of our border in charge of the largest cache of killing machines and weapons in the world. And to enlighten you, much of the Canadian aversion to america has nothing to do with the people there, many of us, myself included have many friends and relatives who live there. Many of my relatives were born there. Our main fear/aversion is because of bush, not the people at large. Although it is true that we are left-leaning up here, compassion is more our mainstay. We have a much more European mindset. Whereas the usa is a secular, you must assimilate sort of place. But please, don't flatter yourself, you are not the envy of anyone, except perhaps the most unfortunate people of this world, who lack good food, clean water, and a decent place to live. Much of the world abhors the notion of being an american. It's that very mindset among some of your countrymen, that you are envied, that also aids in fostering the aversion. Get over it. Check out the ratings on the best places in the world to live. The u.s. doesn't make the top 10. Get over it.

Canada is very much unlike most other countries. Much of its identity is based upon not being the US or hating the US. This has been happening well before Bush was in office. Canada is a country where a good portion of its population suffers from some sort of absolute obsession with the US that results in an inferiority complex among a large portion of its population.

When you order pizza in Canada you say 'Hey, I want to order some pizza. BTW, Canadian pizza is better than American pizza.' It was pretty sad to have friends basically be like that. However, in the US, you rarely ever mention Canada and you definitely don't compare everything that is American to anything that is Canadian.

And sorry, but the US was in the top 10 of places in the world to live. Thanks for exactly showing what I was talking about!

It's really sad to see a good country have much of its population fixated on another country, towards such an extent that it is actually detrimental. These Canadians need to realize that there is plenty to be proud of in Canada. You can comment and praise Canada without comparing it to the US. It's possible - I suggest you try it.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
For example, Canadians often point to their system of universal health care as the best example of what it means to be Canadian (because the United States doesn't provide it), but this means that any effort to adjust or reform that system (which is not perfect) precipitates a national identity crisis

I've been saying this for a while. It's been a very successful propaganda effort to make it part of the Canadian identity. The elite win, everyone else thinks they win when they actually lose.

Umm. . . How do the elite win? I don't deny that our view of our healthcare system does have blinders on, I've said so myself a few times on this forum. But I'm having difficulty seeing how that benefits the elite.

90% of heart specialists alone (a very critical function, I wonder what it is for non-critical functions) state that they give preferential treatment based upon non-health factors such as social status. The elite get healthcare while the non-elite have to wait even when their health needs should take a priority. They can't get healthcare, the elite jump in line and get healthcare for 'free' while others that are dying are paying for it. It's a great situation for the elite, and if you question it, you are labeled negatively.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
We have a much more European mindset.

That just leads me to believe you haven't spent much time in Europe, or very little concept of what the European mindset is.

But please, don't flatter yourself, you are not the envy of anyone, except perhaps the most unfortunate people of this world, who lack good food, clean water, and a decent place to live. Much of the world abhors the notion of being an american.

That's twice in one post that you've advised Americans "not to flatter themselves," quite revealing. And from what I've seen, I don't think that "envy" is really the proper word, America is however admired for its scenery, cultural vibrancy, and high standards of living. Don't you find it interesting that while France is the world's top tourist destination, that EuroDisney is in turn France's top tourist destination by far, twice as many people visit there annually than do the Eiffel Tower. This despite the fact that Disney is about as American a cultural phenomenon as you could choose.

And your statement that much of the world "abhors the idea of being an American," is extremely misleading, since most folks in the developed world are pretty much satisfied with their lives and have little desire to subject themselves to what would be required to emmigrate to another country. For example, while I love Ireland and going to visit, that doesn't mean I want to jump through all the hoops it would take to become a citizen. That doesn't mean I "abhor" the idea of being Irish, I just realize it's impractical.