Austistics can't go to heaven

[Kev]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
Yeah, I dunno, that's a tough one. Seems to me it's not really about autism or religion, even though I have very strong feelings on both. It seems that this 6' 225 lbs person intimidates a lot of people with his volatile behavior and the priest received enough complaints in private (given that at church proper channels for discussion lead behind peoples backs) to feel obligated to do something about it.

Now the Christian thing to do would have been to find some sort of special accommodation, but that's probably asking too much for somebody who is different in a scary new way. We're not talking about a nose-ring here, after all.

What accomodation would there be, chain him to the wall so he stops attacking people and peeing on things?

 

[frostedflakes]

I'm normally the first to bash the Catholic church, but in this case I think they're completely justified. I doubt the priest really cares one way or another that the boy is autistic, he's just worried for the safety of attendees. At over 6' and 225lbs, this kid is BIG and could probably do some serious damage, especially to an elderly person or a child.

It's unfortunate their child has autism and that doesn't allow them to participate in the same events a normal family might be able to. It's not fair, but oh well.

Parents seem to be pretty big idiots as well and use the autism thing as a cop-out. I didn't think autistics were supposed to be nearly that violent when unprovoked, maybe his behavior is partly due to lax discipline. Or maybe his case is just very severe. Guess I'll have to do some reading up on autism.

 

[Agentbolt]

I get really sick of people complaining that "accommodations" weren't made. In this case, the church allegedly DID try to work it out and the family wouldn't go with it, they apparently wanted more. I mean, how far does it go? How much money, time, and effort do you have to spend so ONE autistic kid can go to church and not be a threat to himself or others? Is there even a way to do it.

Look, I understand it's not his fault he's autistic, but there has to be a limit here. If he's not safe in a crowded room, then he shouldn't be in a crowded room. Yeah, that's not 100% fair. I don't think anyone over the age of 6 really expects life to be fair 100% of the time.

 

[RightIsWrong]

I think that the first issue is it is automatically assumed that the church is correct and accurate in its assessment of the situation.

1. Church makes claim that he spits - Parents deny that he actually spits but does make a face that appears that he might

2. Church makes claim that he urinates in church - Where does this take place? In the church bathroom where I would assume that the vast majority of all members have urinated up to and including the priest himself? In his pants? Does the church not allow those children that are not potty trained yet in its house of worship? What if he wore Depends or something else?

3. Church claims that parents do not discipline child - Maybe the priest was upset because he couldn't be disciplined the way that Catholic priests have been disciplining adolescent boys for the last couple of decades? Maybe the priest is just an ignorant fuck when it comes to children with disabilities and doesn't realize that no sort of discipline would correct behavior that is uncontrollable?

4. Church claims that he ran out and started two cars in the lot and revved the engines - Are the members that left their keys in their cars being disciplined and suspended from the church as well? If not, why?

5. Church claims that he assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap - Broke the Catholic rule of having it be a girl I guess

6. Church claims that he yells - Family says that they sat in "cry" room for noisy children

7. Church claims that he knocked the old folk over while exiting - Parents would exit with child prior to final hymn to avoid such issue

Why is the church automatically assumed to be telling the truth and accurately describing the situation with their track record? It sounds as if the parents were doing what it took to make the service as undisruptive as possible but the church itself was the one that couldn't deal with it.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.

/thread.

i hate how people will half-ass read the original post and come in here and pass the typical judgment.

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I think that the first issue is it is automatically assumed that the church is correct and accurate in its assessment of the situation.

1. Church makes claim that he spits - Parents deny that he actually spits but does make a face that appears that he might

2. Church makes claim that he urinates in church - Where does this take place? In the church bathroom where I would assume that the vast majority of all members have urinated up to and including the priest himself? In his pants? Does the church not allow those children that are not potty trained yet in its house of worship? What if he wore Depends or something else?

3. Church claims that parents do not discipline child - Maybe the priest was upset because he couldn't be disciplined the way that Catholic priests have been disciplining adolescent boys for the last couple of decades? Maybe the priest is just an ignorant fuck when it comes to children with disabilities and doesn't realize that no sort of discipline would correct behavior that is uncontrollable?

4. Church claims that he ran out and started two cars in the lot and revved the engines - Are the members that left their keys in their cars being disciplined and suspended from the church as well? If not, why?

5. Church claims that he assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap - Broke the Catholic rule of having it be a girl I guess

6. Church claims that he yells - Family says that they sat in "cry" room for noisy children

7. Church claims that he knocked the old folk over while exiting - Parents would exit with child prior to final hymn to avoid such issue

Why is the church automatically assumed to be telling the truth and accurately describing the situation with their track record? It sounds as if the parents were doing what it took to make the service as undisruptive as possible but the church itself was the one that couldn't deal with it.

A bunch of tired old "priests are pedophiles" jokes don't make your case very compelling. Assaulting a girl (and that IS assault, a mentally disabled person pulling you into their lap? Who knows what they're going to do) and having the answer be "Yeah no wonder they were pissed, it wasn't an altar boy! Nyuck nyuck nyuck!!" is reeeeaaal impressive arguing. :roll:

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: jaqie
Nakedfrog: I have an idea of what some of those "special accomidations" suggested may be, and some of them are very demeaning and degrading to the whole family, so If that is the case I wouldn't be surprised they would turn those down.

C'mon, it'd be bad-ass to show up to church all Hannibal Lectered up

PS - the "n" is not capitalized

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I think that the first issue is it is automatically assumed that the church is correct and accurate in its assessment of the situation.

1. Church makes claim that he spits - Parents deny that he actually spits but does make a face that appears that he might

2. Church makes claim that he urinates in church - Where does this take place? In the church bathroom where I would assume that the vast majority of all members have urinated up to and including the priest himself? In his pants? Does the church not allow those children that are not potty trained yet in its house of worship? What if he wore Depends or something else?

3. Church claims that parents do not discipline child - Maybe the priest was upset because he couldn't be disciplined the way that Catholic priests have been disciplining adolescent boys for the last couple of decades? Maybe the priest is just an ignorant fuck when it comes to children with disabilities and doesn't realize that no sort of discipline would correct behavior that is uncontrollable?

4. Church claims that he ran out and started two cars in the lot and revved the engines - Are the members that left their keys in their cars being disciplined and suspended from the church as well? If not, why?

5. Church claims that he assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap - Broke the Catholic rule of having it be a girl I guess

6. Church claims that he yells - Family says that they sat in "cry" room for noisy children

7. Church claims that he knocked the old folk over while exiting - Parents would exit with child prior to final hymn to avoid such issue

Why is the church automatically assumed to be telling the truth and accurately describing the situation with their track record? It sounds as if the parents were doing what it took to make the service as undisruptive as possible but the church itself was the one that couldn't deal with it.

Why would they have any reason to lie (unless you believe the OP's title that the church actually hates autistic people)? If your assumptions are true and he is not loud/dangerous/etc., then why would the church bother involving the police in this matter?

 

[Train]

misleading thread title FTL

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I think that the first issue is it is automatically assumed that the church is correct and accurate in its assessment of the situation.

1. Church makes claim that he spits - Parents deny that he actually spits but does make a face that appears that he might

2. Church makes claim that he urinates in church - Where does this take place? In the church bathroom where I would assume that the vast majority of all members have urinated up to and including the priest himself? In his pants? Does the church not allow those children that are not potty trained yet in its house of worship? What if he wore Depends or something else?

3. Church claims that parents do not discipline child - Maybe the priest was upset because he couldn't be disciplined the way that Catholic priests have been disciplining adolescent boys for the last couple of decades? Maybe the priest is just an ignorant fuck when it comes to children with disabilities and doesn't realize that no sort of discipline would correct behavior that is uncontrollable?

4. Church claims that he ran out and started two cars in the lot and revved the engines - Are the members that left their keys in their cars being disciplined and suspended from the church as well? If not, why?

5. Church claims that he assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap - Broke the Catholic rule of having it be a girl I guess

6. Church claims that he yells - Family says that they sat in "cry" room for noisy children

7. Church claims that he knocked the old folk over while exiting - Parents would exit with child prior to final hymn to avoid such issue

Why is the church automatically assumed to be telling the truth and accurately describing the situation with their track record? It sounds as if the parents were doing what it took to make the service as undisruptive as possible but the church itself was the one that couldn't deal with it.

Newsflash: A judge looked at the information and determined that there was cause for an order to be in effect.

End of story.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Originally posted by: Baked
There are no heaven nor hell. You just die.

Plant food, ftw..

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

Depends...can they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior? I'm not aware of freebies in the bible offered to the handicapped...

 

[markgm]

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

Depends...can they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior? I'm not aware of freebies in the bible offered to the handicapped...

You're forgetting that the Catholic church doesn't exist because of the Bible, but rather the Bible exists because of the Catholic church. The Catholic church also doesn't list as a requirement to Heaven that one must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

 

[SpunkyJones]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I think that the first issue is it is automatically assumed that the church is correct and accurate in its assessment of the situation.

1. Church makes claim that he spits - Parents deny that he actually spits but does make a face that appears that he might

2. Church makes claim that he urinates in church - Where does this take place? In the church bathroom where I would assume that the vast majority of all members have urinated up to and including the priest himself? In his pants? Does the church not allow those children that are not potty trained yet in its house of worship? What if he wore Depends or something else?

3. Church claims that parents do not discipline child - Maybe the priest was upset because he couldn't be disciplined the way that Catholic priests have been disciplining adolescent boys for the last couple of decades? Maybe the priest is just an ignorant fuck when it comes to children with disabilities and doesn't realize that no sort of discipline would correct behavior that is uncontrollable?

4. Church claims that he ran out and started two cars in the lot and revved the engines - Are the members that left their keys in their cars being disciplined and suspended from the church as well? If not, why?

5. Church claims that he assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap - Broke the Catholic rule of having it be a girl I guess

6. Church claims that he yells - Family says that they sat in "cry" room for noisy children

7. Church claims that he knocked the old folk over while exiting - Parents would exit with child prior to final hymn to avoid such issue

Why is the church automatically assumed to be telling the truth and accurately describing the situation with their track record? It sounds as if the parents were doing what it took to make the service as undisruptive as possible but the church itself was the one that couldn't deal with it.

As a younger man I worked with Autistic children, and the level of violence that they can do would amaze you. If this child cannot be controlled by his parents properly, he shouldn't be in a crowded situation which puts himself and others at risk.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.

/thread.

i hate how people will half-ass read the original post and come in here and pass the typical judgment.

Like you and the person that you quoted just did?

Once again:

Catholics who attain the age of reason obliged to assist at Mass on every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. Only serious sickness or a serious obligation in charity or moral impossibly excesses one from this duty. To miss Mass without such a serious reason ends one's friendship with God and a person who does this is guilty of a mortal sin. The third commandment of the Decalogue and the first precept of the Church require Sunday Mass attendance. Of course, Sunday Mass is not only a Christian duty and a Catholic obligation, but it is an enormous privilege and a great source of joy. For a Catholic Sunday Mass should not just be part of the week but the heart of the week.

If you cannot attend church, you are committing a mortal sin. The church is denying the boy entrance which is forcing him to commit a moral since which he is unable to even ask for forgiveness for in confession due to the restraining order.

But I guess doing something like this is just too much work for this particular church.

Jill Fitzpatrick cried when the older of her two sons made his first Holy Communion two years ago, heartbroken that he would be the only one of her children to do so. Taking the religious education classes necessary to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist, she thought, would never be an option for her younger son, C. J., who is severely autistic and almost completely nonverbal.

In the Fitzpatrick family's Roman Catholic faith, the Eucharistic sacrament is literally the body and the blood of Jesus Christ. Children often receive communion, in the form of bread and wine, around second grade, after preparation that seemed beyond C. J.'s abilities.

But on a recent Saturday morning, he and two other autistic boys sat in a makeshift classroom at St. Patrick's Parish Center here and learned that God is part of their families, a lesson in preparation for first Holy Communion.

The boys are taking a class designed by Cathy Boyle, a mother from suburban Boston, that, Ms. Boyle says, allows autistic children to explore spirituality, even if many cannot express it verbally, and gives them and their parents a sense of participating fully in the Catholic community.

"Most parents feel very strongly about their kids' making their first communion," she said. "It's one of the most basic, most fundamental sacraments in the church. In many ways, it's the ticket to being part of the community of faith."

With autism diagnosed in an increasing number of children in recent years, more parents are seeking religious education options. Catholic dioceses and churches around the country offer religious instruction classes for handicapped children. While most of those classes are not specifically for the autistic, the Archdiocese of New Orleans does plan to open an elementary school for autistic children in the fall. Shema Kolainu in Brooklyn, a nondenominational Jewish school and center for autistic children, opened in 1998. And classes for autistic children are also offered by Matan, a group based in New York that helps facilitate Jewish education for disabled youngsters.

The curriculum being taught to C. J., 7, and his classmates was developed by Ms. Boyle to help her own autistic son, Terry, who is now 13. There was no program for disabled children at her church, St. Mary's in the town of Winchester, so she asked the Boston Archdiocese what a child needed to know to receive the sacrament.

But I guess that it is much easier to just take this church's word for all of the efforts and accommodations that they tried without looking to see that many others have encountered the problem and actually DID find solutions to it.

Read the article, there are even more examples of other churches where the leadership wasn't as lazy and dismissive to the needs of their members as the one in the original article.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

Depends...can they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior? I'm not aware of freebies in the bible offered to the handicapped...

lol, the bible doesn't take into account the people who lack free will based on either age(small children) or disability. It's a book written by man, with 2000 years of more power hungry men controlling the masses via fear tactics and some damn fine salesmanship. Many still follow because they fear the unknown.

 

[OdiN]

Who writes this crap??

Carol Race said it all started last June, when Walz and a church trustee visited the Races at their home address the behavior of Adam, who stands taller than six feet and weighs more than 225 pounds.

Hello? Can you hire an editor that knows something?

I get tired of seeing such horrible mistakes in publications.

 

[markgm]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.

/thread.

i hate how people will half-ass read the original post and come in here and pass the typical judgment.

Like you and the person that you quoted just did?

Once again:

Catholics who attain the age of reason obliged to assist at Mass on every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. Only serious sickness or a serious obligation in charity or moral impossibly excesses one from this duty. To miss Mass without such a serious reason ends one's friendship with God and a person who does this is guilty of a mortal sin. The third commandment of the Decalogue and the first precept of the Church require Sunday Mass attendance. Of course, Sunday Mass is not only a Christian duty and a Catholic obligation, but it is an enormous privilege and a great source of joy. For a Catholic Sunday Mass should not just be part of the week but the heart of the week.

If you cannot attend church, you are committing a mortal sin. The church is denying the boy entrance which is forcing him to commit a moral since which he is unable to even ask for forgiveness for in confession due to the restraining order.

snip.

Your own quote answers your post, the kid isn't required to attend Mass. You don't go to hell for missing Mass because you're snowed in. But oddly enough the Bible doesn't mention snow either.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

heaven?? do people still buy into this shit? I can see having a relationship with god but come on.....heaven? 4 realz?

 

[Xylitol]

re-word your title so it's not so misleading

 

[markgm]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
heaven?? do people still buy into this shit? I can see having a relationship with god but come on.....heaven? 4 realz?

87% of Americans do, so I'd guess you're in the minority.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
I'm normally the first to bash the Catholic church, but in this case I think they're completely justified. I doubt the priest really cares one way or another that the boy is autistic, he's just worried for the safety of attendees. At over 6' and 225lbs, this kid is BIG and could probably do some serious damage, especially to an elderly person or a child.

It's unfortunate their child has autism and that doesn't allow them to participate in the same events a normal family might be able to. It's not fair, but oh well.

Parents seem to be pretty big idiots as well and use the autism thing as a cop-out. I didn't think autistics were supposed to be nearly that violent when unprovoked, maybe his behavior is partly due to lax discipline. Or maybe his case is just very severe. Guess I'll have to do some reading up on autism.

Agreed.




OP, did you even read the fucking article?

This thread title makes the OP sound like a stupid moron.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski
This is another example of why I find religion to be stupid; the more people you can exclude from your little club the better it makes you feel about the exclusivity you enjoy.

For the record, although I don't consider myself an atheist, I equally abhor all organized religions.

Uhm..did you even read the article in the OP.

For one, the OP's title is misleading and incorrect as it says nowhere in the article anything about this kid not being able to go to Heaven.

Also...you're talking about excluding someone from a "club"?? Okay...so if you had your own club of some sort and some couples kid was coming and knocking people over, screwing with other peoples property, pissing on your property, etc. that you would be okay with that activity?

The kid is being banned because he presents a danger to others. It does not matter that it isn't his fault that he is this way. The fact is that the danger exists, pure and simple. Whether it be by actions under his control or not, they have every right to prevent him from being on their property and causing harm to others.

If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll just follow you around with a shovel and hit you in the head repeatedly.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.

/thread.

i hate how people will half-ass read the original post and come in here and pass the typical judgment.

Like you and the person that you quoted just did?

Once again:

Catholics who attain the age of reason obliged to assist at Mass on every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. Only serious sickness or a serious obligation in charity or moral impossibly excesses one from this duty. To miss Mass without such a serious reason ends one's friendship with God and a person who does this is guilty of a mortal sin. The third commandment of the Decalogue and the first precept of the Church require Sunday Mass attendance. Of course, Sunday Mass is not only a Christian duty and a Catholic obligation, but it is an enormous privilege and a great source of joy. For a Catholic Sunday Mass should not just be part of the week but the heart of the week.

If you cannot attend church, you are committing a mortal sin. The church is denying the boy entrance which is forcing him to commit a moral since which he is unable to even ask for forgiveness for in confession due to the restraining order.

But I guess doing something like this is just too much work for this particular church.

Jill Fitzpatrick cried when the older of her two sons made his first Holy Communion two years ago, heartbroken that he would be the only one of her children to do so. Taking the religious education classes necessary to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist, she thought, would never be an option for her younger son, C. J., who is severely autistic and almost completely nonverbal.

In the Fitzpatrick family's Roman Catholic faith, the Eucharistic sacrament is literally the body and the blood of Jesus Christ. Children often receive communion, in the form of bread and wine, around second grade, after preparation that seemed beyond C. J.'s abilities.

But on a recent Saturday morning, he and two other autistic boys sat in a makeshift classroom at St. Patrick's Parish Center here and learned that God is part of their families, a lesson in preparation for first Holy Communion.

The boys are taking a class designed by Cathy Boyle, a mother from suburban Boston, that, Ms. Boyle says, allows autistic children to explore spirituality, even if many cannot express it verbally, and gives them and their parents a sense of participating fully in the Catholic community.

"Most parents feel very strongly about their kids' making their first communion," she said. "It's one of the most basic, most fundamental sacraments in the church. In many ways, it's the ticket to being part of the community of faith."

With autism diagnosed in an increasing number of children in recent years, more parents are seeking religious education options. Catholic dioceses and churches around the country offer religious instruction classes for handicapped children. While most of those classes are not specifically for the autistic, the Archdiocese of New Orleans does plan to open an elementary school for autistic children in the fall. Shema Kolainu in Brooklyn, a nondenominational Jewish school and center for autistic children, opened in 1998. And classes for autistic children are also offered by Matan, a group based in New York that helps facilitate Jewish education for disabled youngsters.

The curriculum being taught to C. J., 7, and his classmates was developed by Ms. Boyle to help her own autistic son, Terry, who is now 13. There was no program for disabled children at her church, St. Mary's in the town of Winchester, so she asked the Boston Archdiocese what a child needed to know to receive the sacrament.

But I guess that it is much easier to just take this church's word for all of the efforts and accommodations that they tried without looking to see that many others have encountered the problem and actually DID find solutions to it.

Read the article, there are even more examples of other churches where the leadership wasn't as lazy and dismissive to the needs of their members as the one in the original article.

Unfortunately we don't have all the information, but something like that could very well have been one of the "accommodations" the church offered to the family. Also, I don't see how this helps your argument. From that case, I got the impression that they are educating children outside of Mass and other church gatherings. This would seem to support the idea that most autistic children are not able to attend normal church gatherings, and therefore supports the decision of the priest mentioned in the original story.

EDIT: Nevermind, read through it again and it sounds like these are classes in addition to church attendance.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: markgm

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.

/thread.

i hate how people will half-ass read the original post and come in here and pass the typical judgment.

Like you and the person that you quoted just did?

Once again:

Catholics who attain the age of reason obliged to assist at Mass on every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. Only serious sickness or a serious obligation in charity or moral impossibly excesses one from this duty. To miss Mass without such a serious reason ends one's friendship with God and a person who does this is guilty of a mortal sin. The third commandment of the Decalogue and the first precept of the Church require Sunday Mass attendance. Of course, Sunday Mass is not only a Christian duty and a Catholic obligation, but it is an enormous privilege and a great source of joy. For a Catholic Sunday Mass should not just be part of the week but the heart of the week.

If you cannot attend church, you are committing a mortal sin. The church is denying the boy entrance which is forcing him to commit a moral since which he is unable to even ask for forgiveness for in confession due to the restraining order.

snip.

Your own quote answers your post, the kid isn't required to attend Mass. You don't go to hell for missing Mass because you're snowed in. But oddly enough the Bible doesn't mention snow either.

Funny, the Catholic church doesn't make any exceptions for missing mass b/c of snow either in their laws. Maybe you should talk to them about that?

This thread is about the Catholic church's interpretation of the bible, their laws, the enactment of said laws by this particular franchise and the repercussions of failure to abide by said laws.

In your example of snow days, the person has the opportunity to ask for forgiveness in confession. This particular church took away that right from this child by having a RO issued. He doesn't get that opportunity afforded to him.