Austistics can't go to heaven

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
3. Church claims that parents do not discipline child - Maybe the priest was upset because he couldn't be disciplined the way that Catholic priests have been disciplining adolescent boys for the last couple of decades? Maybe the priest is just an ignorant fuck when it comes to children with disabilities and doesn't realize that no sort of discipline would correct behavior that is uncontrollable?

If he's uncontrollable, he has no business being out in public. A 6'0" 225 pound person who is uncontrollable represents a hazard to himself and to others around him and it is irresponsible to allow such an individual to disrupt any gathering. Any reasonable person understands this. Yes it's unfair, perhaps even tragic, but that's no excuse for allowing this kid to be a danger to others.

This might be one of the most offensive things that I have ever read in my life. What other people do you deem as sub-human and not worthy of being able to go out in public? Uncontrollable is subjective and obviously the family felt that he was controllable enough to be taken to worship. Maybe you or your children could be deemed uncontrollable by some random group and then you can spend the rest of your life in seclusion.

I'm bored, might as well bight on this one.

"Uncontrollable" is indeed subjective in a very broad sense. However, it is, for all practical purposes, objective when applied within a given society at a given time. The minority of Priests about whom you seem most obsessed were "uncontrollable". Why is it OK to you that this kid be allowed to be uncontrollable and not OK to you for the Priests to be? If there are no standards and it's all subjective, then you are logically forced to give those Priests the same pass on their behaviour that you are giving to the kid. What's fair for the goose is fair for the gander and all that rot.

If a person cannot behave within the bounds set by society, that person has no business expecting society to allow him free reign to act as he pleases. Societal boundaries fluctuate over time, but at any given time a person must respect those boundaries and those who cannot are not right to expect society to cater to the individual or even to tolerate the quirk with equanimity. A rational individual understands that society will always act to protect itself; the analogy of a "cultural immune system" comes to mind as applicable.

The family's feelings regarding the kid's controllability are subject to extreme bias and perhaps even cognitive dissonance judging by their lack of reaction to their child's molestation of a young girl. The child may have only been seeking the calming effect of weight, but that is no excuse for traumatizing an innocent girl. Had I been that girl's father, I would have filed a full complaint with the police and pressed charges for molestation against the boy.

Any person who cannot fulfill the basic behavioural requirements set by the society in which he lives should expect the society to, at a minimum, censure him and at a maximum banish him. That is how the game is played; those are the rules.

ZV

 

[ch33zw1z]

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: markgm

Originally posted by: spittledip
There are lots of shut ins who do not attend church. The priests will go and visit them and present communion, etc. The whole thing about autistic people not being able to be "saved" b/c of not attending church is pretty much a non-issue b/c of priest visitation.

While the result is the same, the reason that an autistic person, a shut-in, or an astronaut on the space station are not damned to hell isn't because priests can (or cannot) visit them, it's because God isn't trying to find ways to send us there. He created the Church to help us get to Heaven, not to prevent us from being happy in this life, or the next.

There is nothing 'tricky' about religion (at least not the Catholic faith.) For some poor families it may be an issue that with rising gas prices they simply cannot afford to drive to Mass. God holds who we'd consider 'the least' closest to himself.

what in the hell are you talking about?

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit did not create the church. Man did. It states in the Bible this: Where two or more are gathered, there I am in their midst. That to me says that it doesn't matter where you go, if you are a true believer then you can shun organized religion of any kind and still be escorted into heaven. And since meanings of the scriptures are up for interpretation, also the reason there's so many different types of Christianity, then there's nobody on this planet that can tell me I'm wrong.

 

[markgm]

Originally posted by: ch33zw1z

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: markgm

Originally posted by: spittledip
There are lots of shut ins who do not attend church. The priests will go and visit them and present communion, etc. The whole thing about autistic people not being able to be "saved" b/c of not attending church is pretty much a non-issue b/c of priest visitation.

While the result is the same, the reason that an autistic person, a shut-in, or an astronaut on the space station are not damned to hell isn't because priests can (or cannot) visit them, it's because God isn't trying to find ways to send us there. He created the Church to help us get to Heaven, not to prevent us from being happy in this life, or the next.

There is nothing 'tricky' about religion (at least not the Catholic faith.) For some poor families it may be an issue that with rising gas prices they simply cannot afford to drive to Mass. God holds who we'd consider 'the least' closest to himself.

what in the hell are you talking about?

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit did not create the church. Man did. It states in the Bible this: Where two or more are gathered, there I am in their midst. That to me says that it doesn't matter where you go, if you are a true believer then you can shun organized religion of any kind and still be escorted into heaven. And since meanings of the scriptures are up for interpretation, also the reason there's so many different types of Christianity, then there's nobody on this planet that can tell me I'm wrong.

You're obviously not the first to make this argument, and I'm sure you won't be the last. What I find amazing is someone will take one part of the Bible to prove a point ignoring other parts. Again, this is the danger when we interpret the Bible ourselves. As I've said earlier in the thread, if the Bible never existed the Catholic church still would. It's dangerous to base your faith on something that wasn't meant to do that role. The Bible is a wonderful resource for Catholics, but it's only part of the giant faith pie. I guess the problem for some people is that they want to see things proven from the Bible, but it's like trying to prove property rights in the USA based on the Declaration of Independence. While the Declaration of Independence is a great historic document, we have a Government here which creates the rules and clarifies them. (It's not a very good example, but you might see my point.)

"The word "catholic" means universal. Jesus created one universal church for all of mankind. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus with his words spoken in Matthew 16. Jesus asked his disciples "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" The disciples then offered various answers - "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." But the question that Jesus then asked was crucial: "But who do you say that I am?"



The answer provided by Simon Peter set in motion the formation of the Catholic Church by Jesus. "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." With this answer, Jesus established the Catholic Church with Simon Peter designated the first Pope.



"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."



Many try to imply that it was Peter's faith on which Jesus established the Church. But closer examination of the words of Jesus reveal that the selection was of divine nature.



"For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father." His knowledge of Jesus was not the reason for Peter's confession to the true identity but it was the fact that it had been revealed to him by God. In the words of Jesus gives Peter his new name - "The Rock". A foundation on which his Church will be built.



Many separated from the Catholic Church cling to the notion that the Church was built on the faith of Peter and not him as a man as justification for their position. Unfortunately, their understanding is incorrect.



The bible is full of references to the need for respect of authority. It is also full of references for the need for unity. In one parable Jesus is explaining how he could not be of Satanic origin (Mark 3:22), "How can Satan drive out Satan?" In this parable he points out the importance of leadership. "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." Throughout the scripture we always see - One God, One Son, One Holy Spirit, One Church.



The Church today has become a free enterprise operation. If you can access the Internet you can be ordained in some church. The reformation began a splintering of the Church - in so many words, a kingdom divided.



It is much easier to understand Peter's role of leadership by reading Acts. He is clearly the leader of the Church. One such example, there are others, is Acts 15:6 where Peter addressing the other Apostles clearly states his leadership role: "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth..."



Around or about 45 AD, Peter went to Rome and from there lead the Catholic Church. As of today, there have been 263 Popes in direct succession to Peter. The position of Pope was established by Christ and the office has been maintained in an apostolic manner since the time of Christ. "

 

[RightIsWrong]

Aren't you guilty of what you are accusing others of? You are cherry picking quotes also to justify your faith while ignoring inconsistencies out of convenience. Every one of the questions below have answers that are contradicted within the bible itself. Now, you are claiming that even if the bible did not exist, the church still would. I understand the point that you believe you are making, but disagree with the conclusion. The church might have been started, but to claim that it would have grown to the enormity that it was/is today is asinine.

With that in mind....as I stated above, every one of these questions have contradicting answers in the bible. How does the Catholic church justify/clarify them if they only base a portion of their faith on the bible itself?

Is god a benevolent god or a vengeful god?

Is god biased or impartial in his enforcement of his rules or with his blessings?

Is wisdom something that god wants man to have or does he shun man for seeking it?

Does god want all men saved or does he try to trick man into not being saved or falsely/unjustly allow satan to be blamed for temptation?

Is it fear of god that will keep men from evil or love of god?

Did Jesus assist god in the creation of the universe/world?

Are children innocent in god's eyes or are they sacrificial lambs to be killed as a show of faith?

Why did Mary and Joseph disobey god and not name Jesus Emmanuel like commanded?

Does god want you to exclaim your good works done in his name or not?

Did Jesus come to abolish the law (commandments) or not?

Does Jesus abolish/ban himself to hell for calling a man a fool?

Did Jesus love his enemies or was he quick to denigrate them?

Does god give into temptation or is he able to resist it?

Who will be saved....all those that call on the name of the lord or only a chosen few?

Are we justified by faith or by works?

Did Jesus fail in his attempt to give his disciples the power to heal?

Did Jesus come in peace or wielding a proverbial sword?

Was Jesus afraid of man even though he told others to not be?

Why did you not mention that Jesus cast Peter aside calling him "Satan" in your write up of the creation of the church?

Does Jesus have no power or all power?

Will there be signs preceding the tribulation or not?

Did Jesus or did he not answer the charges brought forth against him by Pontius Pilate?

What was the inscription on the cross Jesus was crucified on?

Is Jesus equal to or lessor than god?

Was Jesus a man approved by god or god incarnate?

Does god judge man?

Is Jesus' bearing witness to himself true or false?

Will some or none of Jesus' followers be lost?

Why would Paul preach in Asia when it was strictly forbidden?

If you sin where there is no law are you perished or is there no transgression?

Is there truly only one god or is there a second?

Are you supposed to avoid or advise non-believers?

 

[markgm]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Aren't you guilty of what you are accusing others of? You are cherry picking quotes also to justify your faith while ignoring inconsistencies out of convenience. Every one of the questions below have answers that are contradicted within the bible itself. Now, you are claiming that even if the bible did not exist, the church still would. I understand the point that you believe you are making, but disagree with the conclusion. The church might have been started, but to claim that it would have grown to the enormity that it was/is today is asinine.

--I'm trying to answer those who will only accept the Bible, and not the authority of the Church. It's difficult to show someone how addition works if they believe that only letters, and not numbers, exist.

With that in mind....as I stated above, every one of these questions have contradicting answers in the bible. How does the Catholic church justify/clarify them if they only base a portion of their faith on the bible itself?

--The faith isn't based on the Bible.

Is god a benevolent god or a vengeful god?

--God is a loving God.

Is god biased or impartial in his enforcement of his rules or with his blessings?

--He gives everyone grace according to their needs.

Is wisdom something that god wants man to have or does he shun man for seeking it?

--Irrelevant, God wants us to know, love, and serve him.

Does god want all men saved or does he try to trick man into not being saved or falsely/unjustly allow satan to be blamed for temptation?

--He wants us all to obtain Heaven.

Is it fear of god that will keep men from evil or love of god?

--It depends on the person. Some people do a good job at work to make their boss happy, some do a good job so they don't get fired.

Did Jesus assist god in the creation of the universe/world?

--There is only one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Are children innocent in god's eyes or are they sacrificial lambs to be killed as a show of faith?

-- Children sin.

Why did Mary and Joseph disobey god and not name Jesus Emmanuel like commanded?

--That's a new one.

Does god want you to exclaim your good works done in his name or not?

--God has never asked me to exclaim my good works in his name, though to be honest, he hasn't said not to either.

Did Jesus come to abolish the law (commandments) or not?

--He came to die for our sins.

Does Jesus abolish/ban himself to hell for calling a man a fool?

--No

Did Jesus love his enemies or was he quick to denigrate them?

--Jesus loves everyone.

Does god give into temptation or is he able to resist it?

--God is not tempted. I guess you're referring to Satan temping Jesus while he was on Earth: http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/temptation/summary.asp

Who will be saved....all those that call on the name of the lord or only a chosen few?

--We don't know. We know for sure that the saints are in Heaven. We know that some have gone to Hell, but other than that, it could be that the entire world except for 20 people will be in Heaven. You'll know when you die, and at that point you won't care.

Are we justified by faith or by works?

--(Edit: I thought you asked if we are judged, perhaps that's what you mean. If so, both, if not, I have no idea what you're asking.)

Did Jesus fail in his attempt to give his disciples the power to heal?

--No

Did Jesus come in peace or wielding a proverbial sword?

--He was born as a baby, I think Mary would have had complications with him being born with any type of sword.

Was Jesus afraid of man even though he told others to not be?

--No

Why did you not mention that Jesus cast Peter aside calling him "Satan" in your write up of the creation of the church?

--Because I didn't find it relevant.

Does Jesus have no power or all power?

--Jesus is God, God is all powerful.

Will there be signs preceding the tribulation or not?

--Beats me.

Did Jesus or did he not answer the charges brought forth against him by Pontius Pilate?

--I don't recall, I'm sure you can Google it if you're really curious.

What was the inscription on the cross Jesus was crucified on?

--It was written in a few languages, but the message was: Jesus, King of the Jews.

Is Jesus equal to or lessor than god?

--I think you asked this question two other times already.

Was Jesus a man approved by god or god incarnate?

--Four times now.

Does god judge man?

--Yes

Is Jesus' bearing witness to himself true or false?

--I don't understand your question.

Will some or none of Jesus' followers be lost?

--We know that some have gone to Hell, that Jesus said. If you're in Hell you didn't follow Jesus, so maybe the answer is no.

Why would Paul preach in Asia when it was strictly forbidden?

--Who forbid it?

If you sin where there is no law are you perished or is there no transgression?

--If you sin then you, um, sinned.

Is there truly only one god or is there a second?

--5th time's a charm I suppose. There is only one god.

Are you supposed to avoid or advise non-believers?

--In your case I'd rather avoid you, but I believe I've been advising.

 

[BudAshes]

Well obviously autistics can't go to heaven. It doesn't exist.

 

[LtPage1]

They're a church, not a public school. They can exclude anyone they want. It sounds like everyone's a jerk in this story.

 

[alkemyst]

Last thing I want in heaven is some spaz terrorizing the place. priest made a good call.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.

/thread.

i hate how people will half-ass read the original post and come in here and pass the typical judgment.

Like you and the person that you quoted just did?

Once again:

Catholics who attain the age of reason obliged to assist at Mass on every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. Only serious sickness or a serious obligation in charity or moral impossibly excesses one from this duty. To miss Mass without such a serious reason ends one's friendship with God and a person who does this is guilty of a mortal sin. The third commandment of the Decalogue and the first precept of the Church require Sunday Mass attendance. Of course, Sunday Mass is not only a Christian duty and a Catholic obligation, but it is an enormous privilege and a great source of joy. For a Catholic Sunday Mass should not just be part of the week but the heart of the week.

If you cannot attend church, you are committing a mortal sin. The church is denying the boy entrance which is forcing him to commit a moral since which he is unable to even ask for forgiveness for in confession due to the restraining order.

Yup. He has a restraining order at one church. He can go to other churches, his parents can find other ways of fulfilling their obligation.

They passed on the options presented by the church. They tried to accommodate and I'm certain that this was a "last option" for them. Furthermore, in the biblical sense of the term, Autism is a sickness that can prevent him from going to church.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: markgm

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Aren't you guilty of what you are accusing others of? You are cherry picking quotes also to justify your faith while ignoring inconsistencies out of convenience. Every one of the questions below have answers that are contradicted within the bible itself. Now, you are claiming that even if the bible did not exist, the church still would. I understand the point that you believe you are making, but disagree with the conclusion. The church might have been started, but to claim that it would have grown to the enormity that it was/is today is asinine.

--I'm trying to answer those who will only accept the Bible, and not the authority of the Church. It's difficult to show someone how addition works if they believe that only letters, and not numbers, exist.

With that in mind....as I stated above, every one of these questions have contradicting answers in the bible. How does the Catholic church justify/clarify them if they only base a portion of their faith on the bible itself?

--The faith isn't based on the Bible.

Is god a benevolent god or a vengeful god?

--God is a loving God.

Some examples of your loving god

Genesis 4:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

.............

Deuteronomy 32:19-27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

19And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

22For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

23I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

24They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

25The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

26I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

27Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.

..............

Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

...........

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

16But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

.............

Joshua 10:40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

.............

Ezekiel 9:5-7 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Is god biased or impartial in his enforcement of his rules or with his blessings?

--He gives everyone grace according to their needs.

I guess some people need to be handicapped:

Exodus 4:11 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Is wisdom something that god wants man to have or does he shun man for seeking it?

--Irrelevant, God wants us to know, love, and serve him.

Then why would he smite those that seek knowledge? Why are Adam and Eve forbidden to eat the apple? Why would he make wisdom foolish?

Genesis 2:17 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

.........

1 Corinthians 1:20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Does god want all men saved or does he try to trick man into not being saved or falsely/unjustly allow satan to be blamed for temptation?

--He wants us all to obtain Heaven.

Really? Maybe someone should tell god then.

1 Kings 22:21-23 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Is it fear of god that will keep men from evil or love of god?

--It depends on the person. Some people do a good job at work to make their boss happy, some do a good job so they don't get fired.

Did Jesus assist god in the creation of the universe/world?

--There is only one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Really? Then why is Jesus referred to as a separate entity?

Isaiah 44:24 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

..................


John 1:1-3 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

...................

Acts 2:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Are children innocent in god's eyes or are they sacrificial lambs to be killed as a show of faith?

-- Children sin.

Original sin, sins of our fathers....or maybe he just liked the sound of it?

Jeremiah 32:18 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

18Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,

.................

Exodus 22:29-30 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

29Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

30Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.

Why did Mary and Joseph disobey god and not name Jesus Emmanuel like commanded?

--That's a new one.

Unless there is a second child of virgin birth out there.....

Matthew 1:23 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Does god want you to exclaim your good works done in his name or not?

--God has never asked me to exclaim my good works in his name, though to be honest, he hasn't said not to either.

Maybe not you personally...but he has spoken both ways on the matter to the whole:

Matthew 5:16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

.............

Matthew 6:1-4 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Did Jesus come to abolish the law (commandments) or not?

--He came to die for our sins.

I guess he had a few other tasks that are not as well known then:

Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

..............

Ephesians 2:13-15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

...........

Hebrews 7:18-19 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Does Jesus abolish/ban himself to hell for calling a man a fool?

--No

So then when he sins...it's not a sin?

Matthew 5:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

..............

Matthew 7:26 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

..............

Luke 11:40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

40Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

Did Jesus love his enemies or was he quick to denigrate them?

--Jesus loves everyone.

Except for those that he didn't.

Matthew 16:3 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

3And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

...............

Matthew 22:18 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

18But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

.............

Matthew 23:13-15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Does god give into temptation or is he able to resist it?

--God is not tempted. I guess you're referring to Satan temping Jesus while he was on Earth: http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/temptation/summary.asp

No. I'm not talking about that actually.

Judges 6:36-40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

36And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said,

37Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said.

38And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water.

39And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.

40And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.

Who will be saved....all those that call on the name of the lord or only a chosen few?

--We don't know. We know for sure that the saints are in Heaven. We know that some have gone to Hell, but other than that, it could be that the entire world except for 20 people will be in Heaven. You'll know when you die, and at that point you won't care.

"We" know for sure.....how? If you go by the bible...you get conflicting statements.

Acts 2:21 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

..............

Matthew 7:21 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Are we justified by faith or by works?

--(Edit: I thought you asked if we are judged, perhaps that's what you mean. If so, both, if not, I have no idea what you're asking.)

I missed that one....judged was correct. There are certainly statements that lend credence to all three arguments (one, the other, both):

James 2:24 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

.............

John 3:16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

............

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Did Jesus fail in his attempt to give his disciples the power to heal?

--No

Are you sure?

Matthew 10:1-8 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Matthew 10

1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

.......................

Matthew 17:14-16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

14And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

Did Jesus come in peace or wielding a proverbial sword?

--He was born as a baby, I think Mary would have had complications with him being born with any type of sword.

Nice avoidance. But I'm pretty sure you know what was intended.

Matthew 10:34 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

.................

Luke 12:49-53 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

49I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

51Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Was Jesus afraid of man even though he told others to not be?

--No

Once again I have to ask....are you sure? Because, I don't know many people that hide without some level of fear.

Matthew 12:15-16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

15But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

16And charged them that they should not make him known:

................

John 7:1-10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
John 7

1After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

.....................

John 8:59 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

..................

John 10:39 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

...................

John 11:53-54 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

53Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

54Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

Why did you not mention that Jesus cast Peter aside calling him "Satan" in your write up of the creation of the church?

--Because I didn't find it relevant.

So the person that you decree as the patriarch of the Catholic church being called Satan by the foundation of said church isn't relevant? WOW!

Does Jesus have no power or all power?

--Jesus is God, God is all powerful.

Mark 6:5 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

Will there be signs preceding the tribulation or not?

--Beats me.

Did Jesus or did he not answer the charges brought forth against him by Pontius Pilate?

--I don't recall, I'm sure you can Google it if you're really curious.

He did both in different parts. Again...there is no consistency in the stories yet this is the "Holy Book", the "Gospel" and the "Word of God". Can't he get his stories straight?

What was the inscription on the cross Jesus was crucified on?

--It was written in a few languages, but the message was: Jesus, King of the Jews.

I guess that this also depends on where you look in the book:

Matthew 27:37 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

37And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

...............

Mark 15:26 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

26And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

................

Luke 23:38 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

38And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Is Jesus equal to or lessor than god?

........................

John 19:19 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

19And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Is Jesus equal to or lessor than god?

--I think you asked this question two other times already.

Was Jesus a man approved by god or god incarnate?

--Four times now.

Since you have still not sufficiently answered, I'll show you again the inconsistency:

John 1:1 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(Incarnate there....part of the whole, equal to, however you want to phrase it)

................

Acts 2:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

(Not equal to at all but a man simply approved by god)

Does god judge man?

--Yes

Then why does he claim not to?

John 5:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

.............

And if he is leaving it up to the son as stated above.....why does Jesus say that he is incapable of doing so?

John 12:47 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Is Jesus' bearing witness to himself true or false?

--I don't understand your question.

Maybe just seeing the double speak will clarify it for you?

John 5:31 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

................

John 8:14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

Will some or none of Jesus' followers be lost?

--We know that some have gone to Hell, that Jesus said. If you're in Hell you didn't follow Jesus, so maybe the answer is no.

Ehhhhh. Wrong answer. Maybe. I don't know....he says both.

John 10:27-29 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

.....................

1 Timothy 4

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Why would Paul preach in Asia when it was strictly forbidden?

--Who forbid it?

If the bible truly is the word of god and the trinity is god also....then god did.

Acts 16:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

..............

Acts 19:8-10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

8And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

9But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

10And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

If you sin where there is no law are you perished or is there no transgression?

--If you sin then you, um, sinned.

Then I guess sin is actually based on man's law.

Romans 4:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Is there truly only one god or is there a second?

--5th time's a charm I suppose. There is only one god.

Dang it if they don't keep referencing multiples in the bible!

2 Corinthians 4:4 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Unless you want to argue that calling Satan a god of this world isn't really calling him a god.

Are you supposed to avoid or advise non-believers?

--In your case I'd rather avoid you, but I believe I've been advising.

That was actually kind of a cute response. You got a chuckle out of me. Now, the biblical response to that question is.....both?

1 Timothy 6:20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

..................

2 Timothy 2:14-16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness

.....................

2 Timothy 3:1-7 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

2 Timothy 3

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

....................

1 Peter 3:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[RightIsWrong]

Yet another Autistic boy that won't be allowed into the Catholic's version of Heaven.

More here

The Catholic Church has told the parents of a 10-year-old autistic boy that, because the child cannot consume the host, he is not receiving Communion properly. Until he does, church officials say, he cannot partake of the church's most meaningful sacrament.

According to a letter from Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, delivered to the Lake Havasu City family on Feb. 12, the boy cannot accept Communion in the Catholic Church until he can "actually receive the Eucharist, actually take and eat."

Because of his condition, Matthew Moran cannot swallow foods with certain textures.

So Matthew, who received his First Communion nearly three years ago in Pennsylvania, participates in Communion in an unusual way. As his father watches, the boy takes the Communion wafer and places it in his mouth. His father, Nick Moran, then removes it and consumes the host himself.

Otherwise, Matthew would spit it out, his father says.

Moran, who takes only the one host for himself, says it remains in the boy's mouth for several seconds.

He says the bishop's letter has caused anger, anxiety and frustration in his home.

"We are out of our minds over this," said the father, who with his wife, Dr. Jean Weaver, has two other children, one of them also disabled.

Phoenix Diocese officials contend that Matthew has not been prohibited from Communion, only that the bishop is "not able to approve the present practice," according to his letter. He offered assistance, which has come in the form of various hosts for Matthew to try, educational material and other recommendations for the parents, including respite care, in which trained personnel would look after the children while the parents took time for themselves.

"Matthew deserves to be able to take the Eucharist fully and completely," said Isabella Rice of the diocese Office on Disabilities and Pastoral Care. "As long as he is unable to do so, we will keep working with him."

The issue carries extreme importance for Catholics. Communion, a sacrament also known as the Eucharist, is the center of the church's worship life. In his letter to the family, Olmsted says, "The Eucharist is the great treasure of our Catholic faith."

Unlike other denominations with Communion, Catholics believe the hard wafer of unleavened bread, called a host, becomes the actual body of Christ when the priest consecrates a much larger host by holding it up and repeating the words of the Last Supper. The belief in the true presence of Christ results in prohibitions against consumption by those who are not Catholic, those who have not confessed serious sins and those who have not properly prepared.

The church's concern is that the host or wine not be desecrated in any matter. The key rule is that the recipient must "consume" the host before leaving the area of reception. The consumption rule is written in both the directions for the Mass, called the "General Instruction of the Roman Missal," and in a Vatican document called "Redemptionis Sacramentum," the "Redeeming Sacrament."

The bishop is the final authority for matters in his diocese, according to theologian William Cavanaugh of the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minn.

Now, the church is obviously doing everything possible in this case...but the result is still the same. If you can't follow the rules...no heaven for you!

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: jjzelinski
This is another example of why I find religion to be stupid; the more people you can exclude from your little club the better it makes you feel about the exclusivity you enjoy.

For the record, although I don't consider myself an atheist, I equally abhor all organized religions.

I don't think any real religion excludes members, that wouldn't make any sense. I think you're a little confused.

gays, or am I confused?

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
Jesus RightIsWrong, you've lost. Give up. You're not going to convince anyone here of your warped point of view, and you're just embarrassing youself. Stop before you hurt yourself.

I'm so sorry that you find someone that is able to view things in a different manner than you do as warped. But then, if I or the boy in the OP were conformists like yourself or like the priest at this church wanted us to be, we'd be invited into this Catholic church so that we could become a lemming like yourself.

Where you are and have lost is that right and wrong is subjective (hence my handle). There are very few universal truths and even some of those are debatable. Being in the majority does not indicate a correct stance. Maybe you ought to reconsider the arrogance of your beliefs of superiority.

wow.... just wow....


<snip>

"...blinded by your lack of faith."

This is funny to me

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Now, the church is obviously doing everything possible in this case...but the result is still the same. If you can't follow the rules...no heaven for you!

As it has been pointed out to you at least a dozen times in this thread, when there are extenuating circumstances the Church gives you a pass.

Point to me in any Catholic texts that says this boy will go to hell.

 

[markgm]

I'm impressed with your looking up of the quotes. Things like this are exactly why the Catholic faith isn't dependent on the Bible, and part of the reason that I as a Catholic don't understand how other Christian denominations base their faith on it. Catholics (and I guess Christians) would say that the Church was established when Jesus died, or perhaps during his time on Earth. Either way, say somewhere between 0 and 50 AD. The Bible wasn't compiled until 397 AD. The issue with both of us quoting the Bible is that it's a static document and language isn't. I don't speak the language the Bible was written in, and I'm sure meanings are lost in the translation. I'd guess the meaning of 'tempt' is different. Just as when my mom was a kid, she said something was queer, while it means something totally different today. The KJ version of the Bible isn't one that Catholics use, though it's not overly important since my faith isn't based on which translation is used. The second issue is that quoting the Bible never works if it's taken out of context. It's easy for people to hear that the Bible is the word of God and therefore think it means it's the literal word of God. Take the story of creation. Catholics are free to believe that the world was either created in 6 days or not. The point of Genesis isn't to give us a science lesson. It's a story that shows us that God created everything. Not every writer of the gospel used the same method to tell a story. When you hear it's better to cut off your hand to avoid Hell, it's not really saying cut off your hand to avoid sin. This is why Catholics have the Church to teach us what is meant, and not the Bible. And third, it's better to read a large section of the Bible to get a singular thought from it, versus trying to take an entire thought and prove or disprove it by using a single line in the Bible. You don't read one line in a history book to understand how a country is now run. "All men are created equal..." Does this mean that when the country was formed everyone was 5'10", white, 170 pounds? Were only the women different?

If you really want to find answers out about the Catholic church, I'd suggest reading these three books, I'd imagine they'll answer every question you have: http://icatholicism.net/apologetics/radio-replies.html

In hard copy: http://www.amazon.com/Radio-Re...e-Rumble/dp/0895551594

They were written in the 30's but are just as relevant today.

 

[markgm]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: jjzelinski
This is another example of why I find religion to be stupid; the more people you can exclude from your little club the better it makes you feel about the exclusivity you enjoy.

For the record, although I don't consider myself an atheist, I equally abhor all organized religions.

I don't think any real religion excludes members, that wouldn't make any sense. I think you're a little confused.

gays, or am I confused?

Catholic churches don't exclude gays.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: markgm
I'm impressed with your looking up of the quotes. Things like this are exactly why the Catholic faith isn't dependent on the Bible, and part of the reason that I as a Catholic don't understand how other Christian denominations base their faith on it. Catholics (and I guess Christians) would say that the Church was established when Jesus died, or perhaps during his time on Earth. Either way, say somewhere between 0 and 50 AD. The Bible wasn't compiled until 397 AD. The issue with both of us quoting the Bible is that it's a static document and language isn't. I don't speak the language the Bible was written in, and I'm sure meanings are lost in the translation. I'd guess the meaning of 'tempt' is different. Just as when my mom was a kid, she said something was queer, while it means something totally different today. The KJ version of the Bible isn't one that Catholics use, though it's not overly important since my faith isn't based on which translation is used. The second issue is that quoting the Bible never works if it's taken out of context. It's easy for people to hear that the Bible is the word of God and therefore think it means it's the literal word of God. Take the story of creation. Catholics are free to believe that the world was either created in 6 days or not. The point of Genesis isn't to give us a science lesson. It's a story that shows us that God created everything. Not every writer of the gospel used the same method to tell a story. When you hear it's better to cut off your hand to avoid Hell, it's not really saying cut off your hand to avoid sin. This is why Catholics have the Church to teach us what is meant, and not the Bible. And third, it's better to read a large section of the Bible to get a singular thought from it, versus trying to take an entire thought and prove or disprove it by using a single line in the Bible. You don't read one line in a history book to understand how a country is now run. "All men are created equal..." Does this mean that when the country was formed everyone was 5'10", white, 170 pounds? Were only the women different?

If you really want to find answers out about the Catholic church, I'd suggest reading these three books, I'd imagine they'll answer every question you have: http://icatholicism.net/apologetics/radio-replies.html

In hard copy: http://www.amazon.com/Radio-Re...e-Rumble/dp/0895551594

They were written in the 30's but are just as relevant today.

Very nice response. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it further.

I would like to ask you though how you reconcile your (or somebody's) earlier comments about man not being able to interpret the true meaning of the scripture but accepting the church's interpretation seemingly unquestioned.

If the answer to that is in the audio links that you provided, I'm sure that I will eventually stumble upon it. Regardless, I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.

 

[markgm]

I don't mean to say that we can't interpret scripture, it's just that we can interpret it correctly or incorrectly. Just as we can do with our laws today. When two people disagree on the meaning of a law in the US, a judge is there to interpret what was meant. That doesn't mean that we aren't able to pick up the constitution and interpret our laws ourself. We can, we're just not the final say. This is where the Church comes in. What was important about Jesus building the Church on Peter was his promise that the Holy Spirit would be here to forever guide the Church. This is where Papal infallibility comes in. Many people think it means the Pope or the church can't be wrong, but it doesn't. It only applies to issues of faith or morals, or the things that matter to serving God. Wikipedia has a decent explanation of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility The last time a Pope spoke ex cathedra was in 1950.

On a side note, Catholics don't sit here and listen to what the Church tells us like we're brainwashed (at least they're not supposed to.) Until anyone really starts to explore and question their faith I doubt they can truly appreciate it. The questions and issues you bring up have been brought up throughout the centuries. Many people think new rules are created, or new dogmas are created, but they're not, they're defined. The church might say that downloading warez is a sin. That's doesn't mean that in the 1400's it would have not been a sin to steal software, it's just clarifying what has always been the rule.

The links above aren't audio, they're questions and answers that start off with "how do I know there's a God" and end with "why not take literally Christ's words that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven? And that means impossibility." Each question build on the next to explain what the Church teaches.

Here's two typical questions that are in the first few pages:
18. Do you tell me that a good God permits deformed children, with a lifetime of misery before them?

God is certainly good, and if He permits evil of any kind it is only because He knows that He can draw greater good from it in the end. The human race misused its freedom, abandoned God, and found not happiness but misery. It is good to be just, and God's justice permitted this misery. Also, in His wisdom, He may permit a child to be born deformed who with health and strength would fling itself into pleasures which would end in eternal loss. Again, an imbecile is incapable of sin, and it would often seem to us a mercy had some apparently sane people been born imbeciles. Poor people, whether mentally or bodily deformed, do not spend the whole of their lives in misery and suffering. We must not judge them by our own experiences. Likewise, we must remember that what we call "the whole of their lives" is not confined to this earth. There is a continuance of existence in eternity, where all will be rectified.

We might say, "If God be good, why did He allow His Son to go through excruciating torture?" Sin is the real evil, not suffering. Christ found happiness in proving His love by suffering, a greater good than mere health. And the miseries of this world have driven thousands to God who would have been self-sufficient and independent only for the naturally insoluble problem of suffering. If only for this reason we can discern an indication of God's goodness in it.

19. Is it, then, God's will that people should suffer from such terrible diseases as Cancer or Consumption?

We must distinguish between God's positive will, and His permissive will. He positively wills all the good that happens. Suffering He permits to occur, and this only when he foresees that good can result from it. He positively wills that I should be holy. If He foresees that I will make use of good health to sin and to lose my soul, He may mercifully permit my health to be ruined, and thus lead me to Him where He would otherwise lose me. There would have been no diseases had men not sinned. God did not will sin, but having made men free, He permitted it and its consequences. This permission was a less serious thing than would have been the depriving us of our freedom.