Austistics can't go to heaven

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
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I think that this is more P&N, but I wanted to get as many views and/or opinions on this as I could.

Part of the case being made by the church seems pretty far fetched and IMO, completely made up. People leave their keys in their cars at this church?

I can see the disruptions being an issue but maybe I'm wrong in remembering some guy named Jesus that they actually founded/based their entire existence on being a tab more tolerant of people's medical issues.

Source and video of Autistic child.

A Catholic priest has filed a restraining order against the parents of a severely autistic 13-year-old boy in an effort to keep him from attending the church in Bertha on Sundays.
Priest files restraining order against parents with "unruly" autistic 13-yr-old.

The Rev. Daniel Walz alleges that Adam Race's unruly behavior endangers others who attend the Church of St. Joseph.

Race's parents have ignored the restraining order, calling it discriminatory, and Carol Race, Adam's mother, was cited by police and is due to appear in court on Monday for violating the order.

"He said that we did not discipline our son. He said that our son was physically out of control and a danger to everyone at church," Carol Race said. "I can't discipline him out of his autism, and I think that's what our priest is expecting."

Carol Race said it all started last June, when Walz and a church trustee visited the Races at their home address the behavior of Adam, who stands taller than six feet and weighs more than 225 pounds.

In an affidavit, Walz said the church "explored and offered many options for accommodations that would assist the family while protecting the safety of parishioners. The family refused those offers of accommodation."

Carol Race said the family of seven, which has attended St. Joseph since 1996, typically sat in the cry room or in the back pew to keep avoid disrupting the services and did not hear a complaint from the parishioners until Walz showed up at their home in June.

Even after the restraining order was served, the family continued going to the church and would leave during the closing hymn to avoid contact with others, Carol Race said.

The Diocese of St. Cloud issued a statement saying the petition was filed "as a last resort out of a growing concern for the safety of parishioners and other community members due to disruptive and violent behavior on the part of that child."

Walz said the boy's behavior worsened over time, telling authorities that Adam has been "extremely disruptive and dangerous" since last summer.

According to Walz, Adam struck a child during mass, nearly knocks elderly parishioners over when he hastily exits the church, spits and sometimes urinates in church and fights when he is being restrained.

He also one time assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap and, during Easter mass, ran to the parking lot and got into two vehicles, starting them and revving the engine, Walz alleged.

"There were people directly in front of the car who could have been injured or killed if he had put the car in gear," Walz wrote.

Adam's parents have to sit on him and sometimes tie his hands and feet to get control of him, Walz wrote.

Carol Race has an answer to each complaint.

She said her son makes spitting faces but doesn't spit and acknowledged he has occasional problems with incontinence. She says that she and her husband sit on Adam because their weight calms him down, which is why he pulled the girl onto him.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
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From the description of the nonsense he pulls I think the church is more than justified in keeping him away. Autism or no autism.
 

jjzelinski

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2004
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This is another example of why I find religion to be stupid; the more people you can exclude from your little club the better it makes you feel about the exclusivity you enjoy.

For the record, although I don't consider myself an atheist, I equally abhor all organized religions.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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Hmm... I don't see anything in there about any declaration by the church that autistic children can not go to heaven. Your title is not only misleading, it's a complete fabrication.

I don't know what exactly has happened when this family (including the child) attends church since I'm not there, but I'm guessing the church does not those kinds of steps lightly, and they've also (according to the article) offered plenty of alternative solutions. At some point the church has to take into account the safety and welfare of other churchgoers. Further, those folks have no legal rights to be at that church, so if the church doesn't want them there for whatever reason, they'll just need to find another place to attend.
 

E equals MC2

Banned
Apr 16, 2006
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Originally posted by: jjzelinski
This is another example of why I find religion to be stupid; the more people you can exclude from your little club the better it makes you feel about the exclusivity you enjoy.

For the record, although I don't consider myself an atheist, I equally abhor all organized religions.

Agnosticism FTW.

<-- join us.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I think it's fine to keep mumbo from throwing blows to other church members. So he can't help it, fine - just keep him away so he doesn't continue to hurt people.
 

jaqie

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2008
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This is a hard issue to judge one way or the other. I personally have high functioning autism (think somewhere between rain man and completely normal), I can see both sides of the issue. I'm not sure I see a solution or even a proper judgement here...
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
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It sucks, but if the kid is causing the disruptions the church says he is...well, he shouldn't be able to go.
 

MrWizzard

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
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Originally posted by: jjzelinski
This is another example of why I find religion to be stupid; the more people you can exclude from your little club the better it makes you feel about the exclusivity you enjoy.

For the record, although I don't consider myself an atheist, I equally abhor all organized religions.

Ummm, so you are not a atheist but you find all religions to be stupid. :confused:
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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13, over 6 feet tall and weighs over 225? damn, what are they feeding that boy?
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
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Yeah, I dunno, that's a tough one. Seems to me it's not really about autism or religion, even though I have very strong feelings on both. It seems that this 6' 225 lbs person intimidates a lot of people with his volatile behavior and the priest received enough complaints in private (given that at church proper channels for discussion lead behind peoples backs) to feel obligated to do something about it.

Now the Christian thing to do would have been to find some sort of special accommodation, but that's probably asking too much for somebody who is different in a scary new way. We're not talking about a nose-ring here, after all.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
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Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Hmm... I don't see anything in there about any declaration by the church that autistic children can not go to heaven. Your title is not only misleading, it's a complete fabrication.

I don't know what exactly has happened when this family (including the child) attends church since I'm not there, but I'm guessing the church does not those kinds of steps lightly, and they've also (according to the article) offered plenty of alternative solutions. At some point the church has to take into account the safety and welfare of other churchgoers. Further, those folks have no legal rights to be at that church, so if the church doesn't want them there for whatever reason, they'll just need to find another place to attend.

I don't think that the title is misleading according to the Catholic church's stance on attendance:

Going to church can be mandatory in a particular faith. The Catholic Church, for example, makes it compulsory for members to attend church on Sundays and designated holy days. The Catholic faith is centered around the ten commandments, so the third commandment, "Thou shall keep holy the Sabbath" mandates church attendance. As with any other group or organization, if one chooses the Catholic Church, one agrees to abide by the rules

One can make the point that if you are unable to attend church, you are unable to receive the message of the lord as given by the strict guidelines of the church which negates your ability to proceed to the kingdom of heaven.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,275
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As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
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Too bad he can't get some of that healing power of Jesus.

Let me get this straight, too: God made him that way, right? And they're trying to keep him out of God's house?
Does not compute.

But then, I didn't expect it to.;)



Originally posted by: BoomerD
As has already been said, I see NOTHING in the article that says autistic people can't go to Heaven. (if there is such a place)

I DO however support the church's right to keep the kid out. If he's disruptive, potentially violent, and out of control, not only do they have the right to keep him out, they have a duty to the other parishoners to keep him out for their safety.
But if he doesn't go to church to honor the Sabbath, is that not blasphemous? Can he repent his sins? Etc etc etc.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,785
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Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
Yeah, I dunno, that's a tough one. Seems to me it's not really about autism or religion, even though I have very strong feelings on both. It seems that this 6' 225 lbs person intimidates a lot of people with his volatile behavior and the priest received enough complaints in private (given that at church proper channels for discussion lead behind peoples backs) to feel obligated to do something about it.

Now the Christian thing to do would have been to find some sort of special accommodation, but that's probably asking too much for somebody who is different in a scary new way. We're not talking about a nose-ring here, after all.

In an affidavit, Walz said the church "explored and offered many options for accommodations that would assist the family while protecting the safety of parishioners. The family refused those offers of accommodation."

 

jaqie

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2008
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Nakedfrog: I have an idea of what some of those "special accomidations" suggested may be, and some of them are very demeaning and degrading to the whole family, so If that is the case I wouldn't be surprised they would turn those down.
 

jjzelinski

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Aug 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: MrWizzard
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
This is another example of why I find religion to be stupid; the more people you can exclude from your little club the better it makes you feel about the exclusivity you enjoy.

For the record, although I don't consider myself an atheist, I equally abhor all organized religions.

Ummm, so you are not a atheist but you find all religions to be stupid. :confused:

Would you like me to spell it out for you?

I don't presume to make any conclusions about all the existence of "god", however I think all organized efforts to standardize the behaviors and thoughts of others to fit presupposition of what "his/her/its" intentions are to be foolish at best and dangerous at worst.

Anything that diminishes the responsibility of a person to analyze the world around them and make the best and most informed decisions possible based on their own inherent ability to reason is bad news in my book.

I can work on the Sabbath and be a perfectly productive member of society. I can take the image of Allah in vain and still contribute to the betterment of society. I can say, quite comfortably, that I refuse to draw to draw a conclusion about whether a higher power does or does not exist because, frankly, I don't know, I don't care, and I can still be a good person without a religion providing me an ideological template.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm with the church. If someone were to yell out "shitcock!" every 30 seconds because of Touretz, I think an alternate accomodation so that he doesn't disturb family service every week is reasonable. This kid may not be at that level, but if he's uncontrollable, it shouldn't be the church's job to craft a service around him.

"According to Walz, Adam struck a child during mass, nearly knocks elderly parishioners over when he hastily exits the church, spits and sometimes urinates in church and fights when he is being restrained"

Exorcism ftw!
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
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Newsflash: The Catholic church is not a place for people whom the clergy can't control, to be.
 

jaqie

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2008
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Originally posted by: jjzelinski
I don't presume to make any conclusions about all the existence of "god", however I think all organized efforts to standardize the behaviors and thoughts of others to fit presupposition of what "his/her/its" intentions are to be foolish at best and dangerous at worst.

Anything that diminishes the responsibility of a person to analyze the world around them and make the best and most informed decisions possible based on their own inherent ability to reason is bad news in my book.

I can work on the Sabbath and be a perfectly productive member of society. I can take the image of Allah in vain and still contribute to the betterment of society. I can say, quite comfortably, that I refuse to draw to draw a conclusion about whether a higher power does or does not exist because, frankly, I don't know, I don't care, and I can still be a good person without a religion providing me an ideological template.
Thank you for the very eloquent post. This is actually how I feel precisely, but I am not nearly as eloquent as you were in this post about it.
 

markgm

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Hmm... I don't see anything in there about any declaration by the church that autistic children can not go to heaven. Your title is not only misleading, it's a complete fabrication.

I don't know what exactly has happened when this family (including the child) attends church since I'm not there, but I'm guessing the church does not those kinds of steps lightly, and they've also (according to the article) offered plenty of alternative solutions. At some point the church has to take into account the safety and welfare of other churchgoers. Further, those folks have no legal rights to be at that church, so if the church doesn't want them there for whatever reason, they'll just need to find another place to attend.

I don't think that the title is misleading according to the Catholic church's stance on attendance:

Going to church can be mandatory in a particular faith. The Catholic Church, for example, makes it compulsory for members to attend church on Sundays and designated holy days. The Catholic faith is centered around the ten commandments, so the third commandment, "Thou shall keep holy the Sabbath" mandates church attendance. As with any other group or organization, if one chooses the Catholic Church, one agrees to abide by the rules

One can make the point that if you are unable to attend church, you are unable to receive the message of the lord as given by the strict guidelines of the church which negates your ability to proceed to the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, it's misleading. If you are baptized and cannot reason you have taken care of original sin and are not responsible for personal sin. If you're not Catholic or don't know what you're talking about please don't post making up the rules of the church.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
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Originally posted by: sirjonk
Can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm with the church. If someone were to yell out "shitcock!" every 30 seconds because of Touretz, I think an alternate accomodation so that he doesn't disturb family service every week is reasonable. This kid may not be at that level, but if he's uncontrollable, it shouldn't be the church's job to craft a service around him.
Though that would be absolutely hilarious if you'd yell it out instead of "Amen!"

"Praise the Lord!"
"Shitcock!"