[Austin Statesman] AMD sees a way forward (with new Zen design)

[AtenRa]

They share the same socket on the desktop dont they?

And the PCIe lanes are on the CPU die and have nothing to do with the socket.

 

[NTMBK]

And the PCIe lanes are on the CPU die and have nothing to do with the socket.

Socket pinout limits maximum number of PCIe lanes.

 

[NTMBK]

I guess he saw it here:

The rest may only have x8 btw.

Don't forget about the extra 4 PCIe 3.0 lanes dedicated to "processor attached storage". Plenty of connections for both a fast SSD and a dedicated GPU.

 

[AtenRa]

Socket pinout limits maximum number of PCIe lanes.

Im not talking about that,

For example,

If you knew that Carizzo-L only have a single Memory controller would you say that Carizzo also have a single memory controller because they use the same socket ???

 

[redzo]

First ZEN to be release will be for the High-End Desktop/Workstation and Servers. Those SKUs will compete against Intel Socket 2011-V3.

Later ZEN will also power the next AMD APUs that will compete against Intel Socket 1151 or whatever socket Intel will have at that time.

It is beyond me why they're approaching things in this way. I do not think that they stand any chance at all. They should go for the budget/midrange market first with ZEN, gain some traction and then go for the high end. It is though to beat intel at high end this days, almost impossible. Intel is too far ahead. Take a look at AMD GPU high end versus nVidia. Had them gained anything by challenging nvidia like this? More so, that was a fair fight. On the CPU side, intel has all the advantages: the best manufacturing capability and an already proven top of the art uarch.

 

[AtenRa]

It is beyond me why they're approaching things in this way. I do not think that they stand any chance at all. They should go for the budget/midrange market first with ZEN, gain some traction and then go for the high end. It is though to beat intel at high end this days, almost impossible. Intel is too far ahead. Take a look at AMD GPU high end versus nVidia. Had them gained anything by challenging nvidia like this? More so, that was a fair fight. On the CPU side, intel has all the advantages: the best manufacturing capability and an already proven top of the art uarch.

They want to attack the Server (Data Center and Cloud) market first, thus the big dies are first and then the APUs.

 

[Jimzz]

It is beyond me why they're approaching things in this way. I do not think that they stand any chance at all. They should go for the budget/midrange market first with ZEN, gain some traction and then go for the high end. It is though to beat intel at high end this days, almost impossible. Intel is too far ahead. Take a look at AMD GPU high end versus nVidia. Had them gained anything by challenging nvidia like this? More so, that was a fair fight. On the CPU side, intel has all the advantages: the best manufacturing capability and an already proven top of the art uarch.

Why? Server/High end is where the big bucks are. Budget has been replaced by Cat chips, atom, and ARM. Midrange will use what ever they can get that trickles down from highend.

 

[MentalIlness]

http://fudzilla.com/news/processors/38867-amd-gives-tsmc-zen

What is the sound of 16nm FinFET clapping Amid rumours of Globalfoundries' slow 14nm FinFET yield, it appears that AMD has taken its Zen project to TSMC.

GloFlo was responsible for the delays to AMD's last round of make-or-break product launches and it appears that AMD just does not want to take the risk with Zen. A rumour states that Globalfoundries has reportedly suffered a setback recently as a result of its owner, the government of Abu Dhabi, deciding to cut back on expenses after oil prices crashed. To save cash GloFo is apparently attempting to retool its 28nm equipment for 14nm production., but this is taking too long and the yields have been stuffed up..
TSMC has undoubtedly faced its fair share of setbacks but it has successfully managed to iron out most of the kinks and its 16FF+ high performance process is set for volume production this quarter.
Nvidia is taking its Pascal GPUs to TSMC next year. AMD's next generation Arctic Islands will also be produced at TSMC.
AMD has announced that Zen will be available starting next year. The new CPU core will be fabricated using FinFET technology, however the company has not yet specified whether it will be Globalfoundries' 14nm Finfet process or TSMC's 16nm FinFET process.

 

[redzo]

Why? Server/High end is where the big bucks are. Budget has been replaced by Cat chips, atom, and ARM. Midrange will use what ever they can get that trickles down from highend.

I think that they expose themselves too much and they assume too much risk. If they fail on the higher end with the new core, lower end products based on their new core will carry the burden of this failure. No one is going to desire them anymore. At least on the lower end / midrange they can compensate with features and value, but who is going to buy the lower end / midrange after they fail to deliver on the high end side.

Nvidia manages to prove a point at high end with the titan, buyers shop like crazy.
AMD fails to impress with the fury, they loose market share and the irony is that their other gpu's are very competitive and don't deserve this treatment.

 

[frozentundra123456]

My personal guess is that they realized that without HBM Zen APUs will be seriously bottlenecked by bandwidth, and that HBM is not ready/too expensive for anything but high end dgpus. Not to mention the extra cost and time to integrate a new igpu/HBM architecture.

Thus they were forced to bring out the server and igpu-less desktop version or suffer even more delays. And I am sure they are hoping to break into a decent portion of the server market. As has been said, anything except servers without an igpu will be a very niche product.

 

[Headfoot]

I could see HBM based APUs in AMD Ultralights i.e. "Ultrabooks." The reduced PCB space and heat generation allowing thinner/smaller units adds on a pretty big markup (ultrabooks with nearly the same specs as boring 15.6" notebooks cost a few hundred more dollars). Look at how small the pcb on the latest MBA is. Apple would pay a premium to get it even smaller if it meant they could stuff more battery into the same space. Provided, of course, that the actual chip doesn't eat the extra battery and end up with lower total battery life...

I agree though that HBM apus in a "Race to the bottom" notebook will take a while to come

 

[dark zero]

AMD doesn't have a chance to change anything. They are dead this time... Those delays will be the last thing they do and better they declare bankrupt for good and Zen never needs to be released to.avoid the blame they will get.

They can't even.put HBM on laptops and.you think that they will.succeed on the APU...

 

[redzo]

Those delays will be the last thing they do and better they declare bankrupt for good and Zen never needs to be released to.avoid the blame they will get.

You don't make much sense: your're suggesting for someone to just give up. Blame? There is no such thing. Nobody is gonna blame them. They are struggling to deliver and this time I don't foresee a second chance.

 

[Phynaz]

OP hasn't been back since posting. I suspect some AMD astroturfing here.

 

[MrTeal]

Im not talking about that,

For example,

If you knew that Carizzo-L only have a single Memory controller would you say that Carizzo also have a single memory controller because they use the same socket ???

No, but you know there's enough bumps there to support two DDR3 memory channels. If AMD is using a ~1000 pin PGA socket for AM4, there's just not physically enough pins for more than a dual channel controller.

 

[ShintaiDK]

OP hasn't been back since posting. I suspect some AMD astroturfing here.

Seems so.

 

[Arachnotronic]

OP hasn't been back since posting. I suspect some AMD astroturfing here.

Yup.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Why everyone is compering the dual channel and not double the amount of cores vs Kabylake ???

Intels top end socket 1151 Kabylake will be a 4 Core 8 Threads with gen 9.0 iGPU.
ZEN will be up to 8 cores 16 threads no iGPU. Why and how does anyone believe it will compete against Kabylake is beyond me.
I dont expect it to even be in the same price category, ZEN should be more expensive than Socket 1151 Intel CPUs.

3GHz 8C/16T Zen @ Haswell-level IPC would not be as attractive a solution to gamers as a 4.4GHz 4C/8T Kabylake @ Skylake-level IPC, IMO.

We'll see how a 95W 8C/16T AMD chip built on a Samsung low-power process clocks.

 

[redzo]

OP hasn't been back since posting. I suspect some AMD astroturfing here.

Seems so.

Of course. Some member was too "shy" of coming up and posted this news under some other account or it is pure propaganda from somewhere else. But I believe that most of the members discussing this can already tell that judging by the iq of their statements.

 

[Boze]

I'll try not to be bitter in 2016 when I'm sitting on my expensive and fast 8-core / 16-thread Intel CPU while others aren't using any 8-core AMD chips because they'll be busy declaring bankruptcy.

 

[AtenRa]

No, but you know there's enough bumps there to support two DDR3 memory channels. If AMD is using a ~1000 pin PGA socket for AM4, there's just not physically enough pins for more than a dual channel controller.

Do you know the specs of the FM4 socket ??? if yes then by all means post them here. Lets see if the socket can only support 16x PCIe Gen 3.0 lanes.

 

[AtenRa]

I'll try not to be bitter in 2016 when I'm sitting on my expensive and fast 8-core / 16-thread Intel CPU while others aren't using any 8-core AMD chips because they'll be busy declaring bankruptcy.

I thought you were only buying 4-5 year old used Intel systems

 

[AtenRa]

3GHz 8C/16T Zen @ Haswell-level IPC would not be as attractive a solution to gamers as a 4.4GHz 4C/8T Kabylake @ Skylake-level IPC, IMO.

We'll see how a 95W 8C/16T AMD chip built on a Samsung low-power process clocks.

I dont believe any gamer would go for the 8C 16T SKUs, they will most probably opt for the 6C 12T that will be much much cheaper and better for Gaming.

Edit:

A 6C 12T haswell IPC ZEN at 4.0GHz will be more than enough for gaming.

 

[MrTeal]

Do you know the specs of the FM4 socket ??? if yes then by all means post them here. Lets see if the socket can only support 16x PCIe Gen 3.0 lanes.

Of course not, that's why I qualified it with the assumption that AM4 is a ~1000 pin PGA like every AMD PGA socket since Socket 939. Maybe AMD will switch to a higher count LGA, or changing to a 1mm pitch PGA socket, but that would be a little surprising.

Note that I never said it wouldn't be able to fit more than one x16 interface. Another x16 interface isn't really that many pins. Adding another dual channel DDR4 controller is close to 350 pins though.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I dont believe any gamer would go for the 8C 16T SKUs, they will most probably opt for the 6C 12T that will be much much cheaper and better for Gaming.

Edit:

A 6C 12T haswell IPC ZEN at 4.0GHz will be more than enough for gaming.

If it ever exists. Both Haswell IPC (except perhaps in some cherrypicked benchmark) and 4 ghz seem highly unlikely.