Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers.

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: SlickSnake


Too late, already made that error. I will tell you what it's not, Polk or Onkyo. Popular and cheap mad mob favorites. All connected by coathangers, lamp cord and Monoprice. :p

BTW, the retail on my main speakers was supposedly $2900 each when they were first released, LOL. But I never even saw them for more than $1800 anywhere when I looked. I, of course, paid a LOT less than that. But I still don't think that makes me an audiophile. And I don't consider my speaker choices relevant to this thread. I am sure there are those who think Audiovox would sound just as good, for 1/100 of the price. Enough already! :roll:

And I hardly consider paying 50 cents a foot a ripoff for a quality speaker cable. You can barely get lamp cord for that.

I wouldn't consider HK and Infiniti to even be considered high quality. Mid-fi just like Polk and Onkyo.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,184
17,482
126
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Posted By sdifox

Did you by any chance replace all the cables all the way from the nuclear plant to your speakers? How about the tiiny cables in your speaker? And the winding of your speaker coils? Face it, speakers are so inefficient, whatever perceived advantage you get from the cable is erased by the 60% loss imposed by the loudspeaker. The only real requirement on speaker cable is really gauge. Gauge of the conductor (not the cable) . Advanced physics my ass.

For what it's worth, your Z1 may be decent cables, but the termination killed off any benefit of a large gauge speaker cable. And calling other people noob really just shows you are a tool.

WTF is magnetic flux tube, time correct winding, multitwist construction????

The electrical transmission lines do not effect the performance of the speaker wire, unless it's full of line noise. Nice try, though. It's speaker wire that we are debating here, atm. Remember the topic?

The speaker wire used in my speakers is a thick gauge wire, but I could not estimate the thickness without cutting one in half to look at it, it's not listed on the wire. It looks to be 10 or 12 gauge. Remember the part where I discussed the need for a thicker gauge speaker wire on my mains? Also, all the speakers in the series have the same size wire in them.

The speaker coils also have a very large gauge wire wrapped around them, hard to tell exactly, but from what I can see of the 12 inch woofers, it's a thick gauge, looks as large as the internal wiring is.

Also, how exactly does the speaker termination effect the gauge in a negative way, considering all the soldered solid wire connections on the speaker and amp in the first place?

The only people I'm calling a n00b have already proved their toolness by mistaking this topic for Hot Deals on Monoprice cables - let's rag on Monster because I can't afford decent speaker wire - tools.

If you spend good money on your HT then thread crap about lamp wire being as good as a quality speaker wire, you really need more help than I can offer or recommend.

And as far as the specifics of the Z series speaker wire construction you could just email Monster Cable and see what they say. Oh wait, bad idea, you won't believe them anyhow.

Or you could write to someone who is neutral like Floyd E. Toole, PH.D. about that. He is Vice President Acoustical Engineering, Harman International Industries, Inc. and works for Harman Kardon. I'm sure he is much more qualified than myself to answer those questions about speaker wire construction.

Here is a condensed white paper he wrote about audio science. For those who don't have too much ADD and can sit through it all, amidst the uncontrollable urge to post more lamp wire crap here.

So you are saying you can isolate all the way down to the speaker wire as the crucial connection? You can see the winding on the voice coil? I don't ever recall running into a woofer that shows me the voice coil since it is surrounded by the magnet.

Termination has everything to do with conductivity. The Z1's termination is thinner than the gauge of the conductor, thus giving less surface area to the contact surface between the connector and the terminal. You are better off cutting that connector off and screw on the bare wire.

On second thought, maybe the Z1's termination is not thinner than the conductor, since I did not see a picture nor spec of the conductor. Other than some mumbo jumbo passed as spec.

I must have missed the part where Toole talks about the wires. What page please? From his article, he says the room is more important than anything else in your audio system, which I subscribe to.

PS Monter never tells anyone the specs. Real or not, they just won't talk about it. And I am not particularly happy with Harman Group, they've been snatching up smaller companies with good products left right and centre.


 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,184
17,482
126
Originally posted by: gorcorps
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Self-proclaimed audiophiles, like SlickSnake, that use OMG MONSTER are full of it.

My friends call me an audiophile, although I certainly don't think so. Know why? I can hear the difference between a 128 kbps MP3 and a CD..... I didn't spend $500 on Monster Cables; I'm using the stock, extremely thin gauge, hardwired cables on my Sony HTIB that I got on clearance from BB for $134. Or my Shure E4Cs plugged into my iPod. I've got an Alpine deck in my car that I bought on a clearance error at BB for $79; mainly because it has iPod support, but also because it's got a 24 bit DAC, which does sound a little better than my stock headunit. Enjoy your increased definition and imaging and clarity and all that crap, I'll enjoy my cheap consumer electronics :p

Once again, I never claimed to be an audiophile. If you had bothered to read my posts, you would see I already denied this. I'm just not moronic enough to compare thin lamp cord to a decent speaker wire. Be

I bet you'd be hardpressed to tell in a double-blind test. If the difference is so insignificant that you can't find it without KNOWING it's there, then it's not worth paying for...

The point isn't that you can/can't tell, it's that (for the most part) you WILL get what you pay for. I've had great experience with monster warranties so for me they're worth the price. Are there other cables out there which do the job? Of course there are, and nobody can tell the difference. But cheap cables will break, and you don't have anything backing you then. You'll have to buy another cheapo, and another, and eventually it adds up.

Dude, you are not coming anywhere near my gear if you actually used warranty on wires...
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,184
17,482
126
Originally posted by: SlickSnake


Too late, already made that error. I will tell you what it's not, Polk or Onkyo. Popular and cheap mad mob favorites. All connected by coathangers, lamp cord and Monoprice. :p

BTW, the retail on my main speakers was supposedly $2900 each when they were first released, LOL. But I never even saw them for more than $1800 anywhere when I looked. I, of course, paid a LOT less than that. But I still don't think that makes me an audiophile. And I don't consider my speaker choices relevant to this thread. I am sure there are those who think Audiovox would sound just as good, for 1/100 of the price. Enough already! :roll:

And I hardly consider paying 50 cents a foot a ripoff for a quality speaker cable. You can barely get lamp cord for that.

Lol, who believes msrp? I paid 10K for my audio system. Video is another 10. 40K in content... All before I got married, now I am cut off :(

And I use RCA 12GA speaker cable from Home Depot, retail (with profit for HD) C$1.50 (or something like that, don't remember exact figure) a metre.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,184
17,482
126
Damn you people, you are killing my productivity! I can't stop myself from refreshing this page!
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,184
17,482
126
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: sdifox
WTF is magnetic flux tube, time correct winding, multitwist construction????

Bullshit marketing, that's what.

I want my flux capacitor!

The only thing you'll get is ripped off. :eek:

I like those gigantic thermo sized 'capacitor' you see in car accesory stores and when you crack them open it's got this tiny cheapass capacitor inside.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
126
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: gorcorps
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Self-proclaimed audiophiles, like SlickSnake, that use OMG MONSTER are full of it.

My friends call me an audiophile, although I certainly don't think so. Know why? I can hear the difference between a 128 kbps MP3 and a CD..... I didn't spend $500 on Monster Cables; I'm using the stock, extremely thin gauge, hardwired cables on my Sony HTIB that I got on clearance from BB for $134. Or my Shure E4Cs plugged into my iPod. I've got an Alpine deck in my car that I bought on a clearance error at BB for $79; mainly because it has iPod support, but also because it's got a 24 bit DAC, which does sound a little better than my stock headunit. Enjoy your increased definition and imaging and clarity and all that crap, I'll enjoy my cheap consumer electronics :p

Once again, I never claimed to be an audiophile. If you had bothered to read my posts, you would see I already denied this. I'm just not moronic enough to compare thin lamp cord to a decent speaker wire. Be

I bet you'd be hardpressed to tell in a double-blind test. If the difference is so insignificant that you can't find it without KNOWING it's there, then it's not worth paying for...

The point isn't that you can/can't tell, it's that (for the most part) you WILL get what you pay for. I've had great experience with monster warranties so for me they're worth the price. Are there other cables out there which do the job? Of course there are, and nobody can tell the difference. But cheap cables will break, and you don't have anything backing you then. You'll have to buy another cheapo, and another, and eventually it adds up.

Dude, you are not coming anywhere near my gear if you actually used warranty on wires...

Oh I wasn't talking about speaker wire... just monster cables in general. More specifically my guitar cables. They get walked on, run over, all sorts of bad things.

Also sdifox... 5 posts right in a row? That's ridiculous, use the edit button or give a chance to split it up.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,184
17,482
126
Originally posted by: gorcorps
Oh I wasn't talking about speaker wire... just monster cables in general. More specifically my guitar cables. They get walked on, run over, all sorts of bad things.

Also sdifox... 5 posts right in a row? That's ridiculous, use the edit button or give a chance to split it up.

I am pretty sure large venue cables get treated worse than yours. Go with Rubycon's recommendation, Hosa.

Like I said, I should be working...
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,235
2
0
Posted By sdifox:
So you are saying you can isolate all the way down to the speaker wire as the crucial connection? You can see the winding on the voice coil? I don't ever recall running into a woofer that shows me the voice coil since it is surrounded by the magnet.

Termination has everything to do with conductivity. The Z1's termination is thinner than the gauge of the conductor, thus giving less surface area to the contact surface between the connector and the terminal. You are better off cutting that connector off and screw on the bare wire.

On second thought, maybe the Z1's termination is not thinner than the conductor, since I did not see a picture nor spec of the conductor. Other than some mumbo jumbo passed as spec.

I must have missed the part where Toole talks about the wires. What page please? From his article, he says the room is more important than anything else in your audio system, which I subscribe to.

PS Monter never tells anyone the specs. Real or not, they just won't talk about it. And I am not particularly happy with Harman Group, they've been snatching up smaller companies with good products left right and centre.

I have seen exploded cut away views of the construction of the 4 drivers in my speakers. The tweeters naturally have smaller wires running into them. The others are wired internally with large gauge wires. What I can see is the large gauge of the bare wires running into the speaker cone from the connector attached to the speaker.

The termination on the Z1s varies a lot. From the factory there are 3 choices, spades, pins and bananas. Sometimes the connectors are different on each end of the cable. I had to reterminate a few that had pins on one end using Monster connectors, and depending on the application, either used spades or bananas. The Speakers required spades or bananas.
I used bananas on the recievers because the spades got in the way of other wiring running from the recievers. And the spades made more sense on the speakers themselves since it was a more secure connector. The speakers tend to vibrate... a LOT, lol.

Those companies Harman snatch up are hurting in the global march towards cheaper, and would otherwise most likely go under if they didn't buy their companies up. Mark Levinson is a good example. That's also pretty high end, by most standards.
 

Soundmanred

Lifer
Oct 26, 2006
10,780
6
81
Originally posted by: legoman666
LOL, maybe they should use some Power Distribution rated conductors instead of those pathetic wires that they use. Pic I just took of one at work:
http://img180.imageshack.us/im...280948374027700nc8.jpg
http://img180.imageshack.us/im...282738374034150pq8.jpg

Whateva, my voice coils are bigger than that.
At least that's what the men in the white vans told me.
I can't believe their boss ordered too many sets and I got to profit from it!!
Suckers!!!
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Infinity Interlude or Beta speakers. The Interlude IL40 is one of the flattest and most highly regarded speaker in the Interlude series. It is a 3 way speaker that uses an 8 inch woofer.

Interlude IL40 Review from Cnet

Interlude IL40 Reviews from Product Investigator

I use this speaker on my main HT system in the living room, and the sound paired with he IL36c center channel is phenomenal. Polk and some other brands that are touted a lot on forums don't even hold a candle to this speaker series. And unless you have heard them compared with a Polk speaker, you don't have a clue what your not hearing from the sound colored Polks. Interludes can be had for way less than retail on Ebay. But the IL40 seems to be a bit harder to find, for obvious reasons. The only speaker in the Interlude series I was not overly impressed by was the IL50s 3 way powered towers. But as a surround speaker, they would be great. The IL50 just lacked a bit of midrange imaging for my tastes, since they lacked a true midrange driver.

Sometimes Harman Audio Ebay Store or their online site Harman Audio Store might actually carry a refurbed pair for sale, with full warranty.
 

legoman666

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2003
3,628
1
0
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Originally posted by: Soundmanred
And you STILL won't tell us what speakers you have.
Spider.

Let's just say that would open up a whole new ball of wax with the closet audiophiles out there, and leave my speakers out of it for now, heh. My mains are a bit unusual, as speakers go. They are a Harman group brand. I also liked them enough to get one model of each pair of the series for my 2 HT setups.

Can't compete with my conductor's 1.75" of pure copper on the inside with ~3.5" of insulation. The stuff is rated for 2000A @ 69kV.
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,235
2
0
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Infinity Interlude or Beta speakers. The Interlude IL40 is one of the flattest and most highly regarded speaker in the Interlude series. It is a 3 way speaker that uses an 8 inch woofer.

Interlude IL40 Review from Cnet

Interlude IL40 Reviews from Product Investigator

I use this speaker on my main HT system in the living room, and the sound paired with he IL36c center channel is phenomenal. Polk and some other brands that are touted a lot on forums don't even hold a candle to this speaker series. And unless you have heard them compared with a Polk speaker, you don't have a clue what your not hearing from the sound colored Polks. Interludes can be had for way less than retail on Ebay. But the IL40 seems to be a bit harder to find, for obvious reasons. The only speaker in the Interlude series I was not overly impressed by was the IL50s 3 way powered towers. But as a surround speaker, they would be great. The IL50 just lacked a bit of midrange imaging for my tastes, since they lacked a true midrange driver.

Sometimes Harman Audio Ebay Store or their online site Harman Audio Store might actually carry a refurbed pair for sale, with full warranty.



Oh, OUTED! :eek:

But that's only my mains on one of my HTs, Hehehe! Not the main beasts in question atm.

I figured it was only a matter of time before someone did his homework!

GOOD JOB! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

That particular speaker is also bi-wireable. Which is good I guess if you have spare amps lying around to bi-power it.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,184
17,482
126
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Infinity Interlude or Beta speakers. The Interlude IL40 is one of the flattest and most highly regarded speaker in the Interlude series. It is a 3 way speaker that uses an 8 inch woofer.

Interlude IL40 Review from Cnet

Interlude IL40 Reviews from Product Investigator

I use this speaker on my main HT system in the living room, and the sound paired with he IL36c center channel is phenomenal. Polk and some other brands that are touted a lot on forums don't even hold a candle to this speaker series. And unless you have heard them compared with a Polk speaker, you don't have a clue what your not hearing from the sound colored Polks. Interludes can be had for way less than retail on Ebay. But the IL40 seems to be a bit harder to find, for obvious reasons. The only speaker in the Interlude series I was not overly impressed by was the IL50s 3 way powered towers. But as a surround speaker, they would be great. The IL50 just lacked a bit of midrange imaging for my tastes, since they lacked a true midrange driver.

Sometimes Harman Audio Ebay Store or their online site Harman Audio Store might actually carry a refurbed pair for sale, with full warranty.

Yoyo, you think this should be moved?
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Infinity Interlude or Beta speakers. The Interlude IL40 is one of the flattest and most highly regarded speaker in the Interlude series. It is a 3 way speaker that uses an 8 inch woofer.

Interlude IL40 Review from Cnet

Interlude IL40 Reviews from Product Investigator

I use this speaker on my main HT system in the living room, and the sound paired with he IL36c center channel is phenomenal. Polk and some other brands that are touted a lot on forums don't even hold a candle to this speaker series. And unless you have heard them compared with a Polk speaker, you don't have a clue what your not hearing from the sound colored Polks. Interludes can be had for way less than retail on Ebay. But the IL40 seems to be a bit harder to find, for obvious reasons. The only speaker in the Interlude series I was not overly impressed by was the IL50s 3 way powered towers. But as a surround speaker, they would be great. The IL50 just lacked a bit of midrange imaging for my tastes, since they lacked a true midrange driver.

Sometimes Harman Audio Ebay Store or their online site Harman Audio Store might actually carry a refurbed pair for sale, with full warranty.



Oh, OUTED! :eek:

But that's only my mains on one of my HTs, Hehehe! Not the main beasts in question atm.

I figured it was only a matter of time before someone did his homework!

GOOD JOB! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

That particular speaker is also bi-wireable. Which is good I guess if you have spare amps lying around to bi-power it.

Ok, so does that mean you're talking about your IL60s?

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Over 3/4s of what I bought from Harmanaudio on Ebay and on their website as a refurb was clearly brand new in the box, and not a refurb at all. On the few items that were actually refurbs, it was clearly marked on the box as such, including on the UPC label, and you could tell after opening it had been repackaged. I have bought all of my HT receivers, DVD players, 5 disc CD changers, at least 20 HT speakers (2 complete Interlude 5.1 surround systems, of every type made but one, plus 2 12 inch Interlude subs) a JBL mini system and a set of PC speakers from them. The only problem I had was with one set of 2 way Betas that were obviously refurbs, shipped in 2 different boxes, and one had the wrong speaker cover on it. They sent me 2 brand new covers for the 2 speakers! I even ordered 6 JBL 3 way wall hanging speakers once, for whole house use from winning different Ebay auctions, and every single pair was brand new.

I think they are actually selling off warehouse overstock for the most part on Ebay and on their website, not refurbs. But because they have to keep their retail customers happy and appear they are not undercutting them, they just say it's all refurbs. Some of the stuff that I got refurbed was the electronics. A CD changer, DVD player and the mini JBL system were all refurbs. And the 4 way Interlude IL60s were refurbs, and were marked as such. But they are also powered with 500 watt 12 inch subs in them. The rest of my Interludes were all new, including the 2 12 inch IL120 subs! Even 2 sets of 2 way interludes for wall hanging were new, not refurbs.

I can't support people who say their quality control is bad, not knowing if UPS dropped the units in shipping or what. I did get one set of speakers from them, the Interlude 3 way powered model IL50 that were both literally falling out of the box and damaged by UPS delivering it. I had the chance to hear them on my system, and was not overly pleased with the bass sound or speaker imaging (compared to the others) and sent them back, and did not replace those particular speakers.

I also did buy a refurb older model Infinity HPS1000 15" 1000 watt sub with dual 15" passive radiators from Ubid once, which was a one of a kind offer actually shipped from H/Ks warehouse, and it arrived mashed on the bottom on one corner from UPS, with one foot broken off. It rattled horribly, and when I found out H/K would not cover it for warranty repairs after shipping damage, it was sent back, regrettably. And it could not be replaced by H/K. I can hardly blame H/K for shipping damages by UPS on such large heavy items.

But considering what I have spent on Harman Kardon equipment, which even discounted was around 10k, I would have to disagree strongly with that statement that their QC is suspect. I have not had one blown speaker or faulty electronic part in over 6 years. And their refurb stuff is guaranteed with a full factory warranty, not a cheesy 30 to 90 days like a lot of companies do on refurbs. They are obviously standing behind their products.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Infinity Interlude or Beta speakers. The Interlude IL40 is one of the flattest and most highly regarded speaker in the Interlude series. It is a 3 way speaker that uses an 8 inch woofer.

Interlude IL40 Review from Cnet

Interlude IL40 Reviews from Product Investigator

I use this speaker on my main HT system in the living room, and the sound paired with he IL36c center channel is phenomenal. Polk and some other brands that are touted a lot on forums don't even hold a candle to this speaker series. And unless you have heard them compared with a Polk speaker, you don't have a clue what your not hearing from the sound colored Polks. Interludes can be had for way less than retail on Ebay. But the IL40 seems to be a bit harder to find, for obvious reasons. The only speaker in the Interlude series I was not overly impressed by was the IL50s 3 way powered towers. But as a surround speaker, they would be great. The IL50 just lacked a bit of midrange imaging for my tastes, since they lacked a true midrange driver.

Sometimes Harman Audio Ebay Store or their online site Harman Audio Store might actually carry a refurbed pair for sale, with full warranty.

Yoyo, you think this should be moved?

I do.