Atlas Shrugged: Part 1 (Movie)

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bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Alan Greenspan was a huge fan of Ayn Rand, and he implemented some of her economic ideals while he was fed chair.

Did this not turn out to be a failure ?

First off, Rand was no fan of central banking. So Greenspan, who once shared that opposition, did a flip while she turned over in her grave, and began fueling the housing bubble with a whole lot of easy credit after the dot com bubble crashed. To say he "implemented some of her economic ideals while he was fed chair," is a half-story, as he tossed away "some of her economic ideals" when he became Fed chair. It's rather ironic, because those who want to believe the housing bubble was fueled by deregulation blame Greenspan for it, and those who believe the housing bubble was fueled by easy credit, also blame Greenspan. But to blame "Randian economics" is just foolish and ignorant of not only the situation, but of Rand as well.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Whether or not you agree with her ideology, everything she said in that book has or is coming true about the path of our nation. I don't have any expectations for the movie though.

That seems to be the case, but is it for the reasons presented in the book?

For example, we're losing our manufacturing base, not because of socialist economic policies, but rather because free market ideology exposed us to global labor arbitrage, allowing businesses to relocate production to nations where people earn slave wages.

Americans are being displaced from college-education-requiring knowledge-based jobs as a result of free market ideology that allows H-1B and L-1 visas.

Lower class Americans are being displaced from their jobs and suffering from depressed wages as a result of mass immigration, which is consistent with free market ideology.

Our health care system is a mess very much in part because we tried to use a free market system for a service that just doesn't work very well as a market product. (Don't like the price for heart surgery? Then just walk away! You can't do that.) In the meantime, nations with real socialized medicine are spending far less money (as a percentage of their GDP and in dollar terms) on health care while having 100% coverage, zero medical bankruptcies, and (ironically) businesses that aren't burdened by health care concerns. (It's a boon for business!)

I certainly agree that our nation has a great many problems and that the root cause is a lack of reason and rationality but would disagree as to the economic causes of the problem.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
I think she made it abundantly clear that she abhors all of that.

Ayn Rand’s "Superman": A Serial Killer and Rapist

http://www.alternet.org/story/145819/

If you havent noticed sex in her books is a major creepfest, sex to her is being dominated and raped.

Ayn Rand's thinking is that she is a textbook sociopath. In her notebooks Ayn Rand worshiped a notorious serial murderer-dismemberer, and used this killer as an early model for the type of "ideal man" she promoted in her more famous books.


Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman

Ayn Rand never mentions the victim at all in any of her journal entries. The closest she comes is a sneering reference to another girl, "who wrote a letter to Hickman [in jail], asking him 'to get religion so that little girls everywhere would stop being afraid of him.'"

Notice that the Ayn Rand does not bother to tell us that the victim in question was twelve years old, that Hickman tormented her parents with mocking ransom notes, that Hickman killed the girl even though the parents paid the ransom money, or that Hickman cut the girl in half and threw her upper body onto the street in front of her horrified father while scattering her other body parts around the city of Los Angeles.

The best way to get to the bottom of Ayn Rand's beliefs is to take a look at how she developed the superhero of her novel, Atlas Shrugged, John Galt / William Edward Hickman
 
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Oct 30, 2004
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Ayn Rand’s "Superman": A Serial Killer and Rapist.

Thank you for the link. If that's true, then I stand corrected.

Still, you can't say that that's what she advocated or that that's what her philosophy stands for. She made it abundantly clear that she opposed that sort of violence and it would be intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

If you want to attack her philosophy--please do it based on the ideas themselves as expressed, say, in Objectivism: the Philosophy of Ayn Rand, and not that piddly kind of crap. Make a strong argument in favor of socialized medicine or argue that real capitalism won't work or that capitalist elements in our economic policy are responsible for our current mess and a small percentage of the populace owning most of the wealth.

Regarding the serial killer, I suspect that she was horrified while finding some aspect of interest in his psychology. I'm not sure that makes her an "admirer" any more than a psychiatrist who studies the criminally insane and who finds something interesting in a patient's psychology is an admirer. I am going to do some searching to see what the Objectivists have to say about all of this. In all of my (in the past) years as a Rand fan I'd never heard of that before but can't say I'm not surprised I'd never heard of it, even in debates with opponents of Objectivism.

Here's a quote from the comments to the article:

But back to Ayn Rand\\\'s true view of Hickman which you conveniently ignored. In \\"The Journals of Ayn Rand\\", she is clearly quoted: \\"[My hero is] very far from him, of course. The outside of Hickman, but not the inside. Much deeper and much more. A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me.\\"

Her only interest in Hickman was his unconventional attitude and the public\\\'s reaction to it. She was clearly morally against the crime he committed. All throughout her books is the moral requirement that an individual never initiate force against another -- and its philosophical basis: that the basis of an individual\\\'s life is his or her use of reason. Not force.

To leave the impression that Ayn Rand supported the crimes of a kidnapper/murderer is a baseless smear. You are on the edge of libel

I suspect that comment is closer to the truth.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,137
55,663
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Thank you for the link. If that's true, then I stand corrected.

Still, you can't say that that's what she advocated or that that's what her philosophy stands for. She made it abundantly clear that she opposed that sort of violence and it would be intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

If you want to attack her philosophy--please do it based on the ideas themselves as expressed, say, in Objectivism: the Philosophy of Ayn Rand, and not that piddly kind of crap. Make a strong argument in favor of socialized medicine or argue that real capitalism won't work or that capitalist elements in our economic policy are responsible for our current mess and a small percentage of the populace owning most of the wealth.

The strong argument in favor of socialized medicine is the performance of socialized medicine in every OECD country without exception.

The easiest argument against her philosophy is that it is reliant upon a type of human nature that simply does not exist, much as communism did. (irony alert!) People are no more able to completely discount the interests of all others and behave solely in rational self interest than they are able to completely abandon rational self interest and work for the good of all.

That's really the only critique necessary, her theory is based around moon people. Well that and her fundamental theory of value was that all animals exist to survive, when that's clearly not the case. All animals exist to reproduce, which really throws a monkey wrench in her entire line of reasoning. Then again, that comes back to why her theory describes moon people to begin with, she started with a flawed premise.

Objectivism is horrible. It's not just sociopathic, it's insipid and dependent on tautological arguments.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,137
55,663
136
Sure, she got some of the names wrong, and not everything has happened yet, but we are absolutely on the course she predicted. Read the book.

I have read the book several times. (unfortunately, I mean god what a badly written piece of shit) If by 'not everything has happened yet' you mean 'basically nothing that the book describes has happened', then sure.

If you believe that we are headed down the path predicted by the book, show us. Be specific. I want to know exactly what events you believe have occurred recently, are historically unique, and analogous to events in the book. Please explain why you believe the causes to be the same, and what further events from the book you believe we can expect in the relatively near future.
 
May 11, 2008
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First off, Rand was no fan of central banking. So Greenspan, who once shared that opposition, did a flip while she turned over in her grave, and began fueling the housing bubble with a whole lot of easy credit after the dot com bubble crashed. To say he "implemented some of her economic ideals while he was fed chair," is a half-story, as he tossed away "some of her economic ideals" when he became Fed chair. It's rather ironic, because those who want to believe the housing bubble was fueled by deregulation blame Greenspan for it, and those who believe the housing bubble was fueled by easy credit, also blame Greenspan. But to blame "Randian economics" is just foolish and ignorant of not only the situation, but of Rand as well.

Of course it is not mere the Rand philosophy that is responsible for the housing bubble. But what was the case then ? I may be wrong, but i seem to remember that it was cold deregulation of banks and quality control. Easy money and scamming each other with securitization.

What was the cause of the recent crisis ? Responsible banking or being as selfish as possible while in a position of great responsibility ? It may even have been a coke fueled greed rage(according to some London bankers) but still, ironically it does seem to be that some people on important positions have acted as selfish as possible. It may not have been that these people believed in Rand utopia, but they sure acted that way.

I remember the Bachar committee who warned about the dangers in the western banking system prior to the most recent crisis. Luckily some people listened and did not have any trouble at all.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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That seems to be the case, but is it for the reasons presented in the book?

For example, we're losing our manufacturing base, not because of socialist economic policies, but rather because free market ideology exposed us to global labor arbitrage, allowing businesses to relocate production to nations where people earn slave wages.

Americans are being displaced from college-education-requiring knowledge-based jobs as a result of free market ideology that allows H-1B and L-1 visas.

Lower class Americans are being displaced from their jobs and suffering from depressed wages as a result of mass immigration, which is consistent with free market ideology.

Our health care system is a mess very much in part because we tried to use a free market system for a service that just doesn't work very well as a market product. (Don't like the price for heart surgery? Then just walk away! You can't do that.) In the meantime, nations with real socialized medicine are spending far less money (as a percentage of their GDP and in dollar terms) on health care while having 100% coverage, zero medical bankruptcies, and (ironically) businesses that aren't burdened by health care concerns. (It's a boon for business!)

I certainly agree that our nation has a great many problems and that the root cause is a lack of reason and rationality but would disagree as to the economic causes of the problem.
The problem is that none of the systems you listed failed because of free markets - they failed because of market manipulation. For example:

Manufacturing: "The plant's closing was announced after union workers declined to open contract negotiations about three years early." This is in my home town, where people dropped out of high school to go work there for $20+/hour. The unions declared it a victory for labor. It's one of many Muncie factories which have closed - enough to warrant an online photo album. The unions blocked any negotiations, and the law disallowed the plants from hiring outside the union. That put all the power in the union's hands, and they used it to squish their own members. That's not a "free market" by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't know anyone that has lost a job to a visa holder. Visas are a barrier to entry and very expensive for an employer to support. Thus, companies only hire them if there is no one else already around who can do the job for the asking price. We run ads all the time to find PhD chemists, but not a single American will even respond because the government-mandated post-doc salary (set by NIH and NSF) is far lower than they can make in industry. So, we've instead hired one Indian and three Chinese post-docs. Again, the barrier is wage manipulation by the government, forcing wages down in this case. Ironically, the NIH-mandated post-doc salary is right around $40k/year, which is actually less than the unskilled factory workers in Muncie were making before the plants closed.

Low-skilled workers cannot be displaced by immigration, since immigration simply introduces competition. The prevailing wage might go down, as people are willing to do the same work for less. The problem arises because it is illegal for American citizens to compete since they are subject to minimum wage laws which require law-abiding employers to pay more than the prevailing wage. This is a very complex topic that I could probably write a book about, but suffice it to say that the problem is that the law-abiding citizens and companies are penalized because they can't compete with the law breakers such that the law has again become a barrier to the workings of a free market.

Healthcare is similarly complicated. The mixed system we have now is the root of the problem, and it needs to go one way or the other. I'll avoid arguing which way in this thread because there are plenty of other threads on that already.

The bottom line is that the perceived "problems" with the free market are almost always traceable to the regulations which inhibit the market from working as it would in the absence of those regulations. I'm not saying that a free market will work in all cases, but prohibiting the market from equilibrating in response to market forces (e.g. mass immigration) creates huge problems.
 
May 11, 2008
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I do not know full details here. But i have noticed one thing. It is not uncommon that citizens are seen as money by the financial world and the political establishment and that citizens are seen as a stable integrating force.
The whole problem IMHO is that people in the US can be laid of easy. This is good for the companies in some ways, bad in others. It is easy to lay people off in bad times to save money on the short term but companies also loose a lot of good work experience and dedicated employees.
I noticed that when people have job security ( I am not talking about unions, it seems to me that here also abuse of power happens) they also can pay their bills (duh). Thus we could say that in order to have a stable economy we also need people with money on the bank saving for the future. And not people who live day by day spending everything. When comparing different countries i noticed a nations wealth can also be seen in the amount of people working and saving because this group works as a stabilizing force. That is until one takes their savings.

In the US, people where offered houses without checking if they have the financial stability in the long run to pay the loans back. Thus this group did not function as an integrating force on the economy effectively stabilizing it. No they functioned as a differentiating force. Accelerating the instability.
Thus the banking system could have known this in advance.

For example, if you look at 200 people. 100 people have a job for the upcoming 25 years. The other 100 people will have an erratic spending and erratic paying nature. Which group equals stability ? There is your issue.
It is all tied into each other.
 
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Oct 30, 2004
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The problem is that none of the systems you listed failed because of free markets - they failed because of market manipulation. For example:

Manufacturing: "The plant's closing was announced after union workers declined to open contract negotiations about three years early." This is in my home town, where people dropped out of high school to go work there for $20+/hour. The unions declared it a victory for labor. It's one of many Muncie factories which have closed - enough to warrant an online photo album. The unions blocked any negotiations, and the law disallowed the plants from hiring outside the union. That put all the power in the union's hands, and they used it to squish their own members. That's not a "free market" by any stretch of the imagination.

But did plant relocate to another country to to another location in the United States?

I don't know anyone that has lost a job to a visa holder.
Anecdotal stories abound if you go looking for them. There are stories about people who have had to train their replacements, etc.

Visas are a barrier to entry and very expensive for an employer to support. Thus, companies only hire them if there is no one else already around who can do the job for the asking price.
The key word is "asking price". If the asking price is really low then it might be difficult to find people depending on the job.

We run ads all the time to find PhD chemists, but not a single American will even respond because the government-mandated post-doc salary (set by NIH and NSF) is far lower than they can make in industry. So, we've instead hired one Indian and three Chinese post-docs.
Are you in industry or academia? What you say doesn't make much sense unless the compensation you're offering is lower than the government minimum. Why would Americans want to spend 9-10 years in college (undergrad + PhD studies) often working 60 hours/week in the lab for $40,000/year anyway?

Again, the barrier is wage manipulation by the government, forcing wages down in this case. Ironically, the NIH-mandated post-doc salary is right around $40k/year, which is actually less than the unskilled factory workers in Muncie were making before the plants closed.
Do you really think universities and professors are going to want to spend more than $40,000/year on a postdoc? From their own grants? If that $40k/year minimum is true, it probably represents a wage increase for postdocs.

Low-skilled workers cannot be displaced by immigration, since immigration simply introduces competition.
That's ludicrous. What if the competition is willing to do the work for less money or willing to provide more labor output per unit of compensation?

What if the competition is willing to work off-the-books for cash?

Even if the immigrants received the same wages and provided the same amount of labor output per unit of compensation (same value to an employer) they could still displace domestic workers.

The prevailing wage might go down, as people are willing to do the same work for less. The problem arises because it is illegal for American citizens to compete since they are subject to minimum wage laws which require law-abiding employers to pay more than the prevailing wage.
And if they worked for those lower wages we would have new problems such as impoverished working poor people needing food stamps, welfare, and Medicaid.

I don't see how competition to be in a race to the bottom is good for workers.

This is a very complex topic that I could probably write a book about, but suffice it to say that the problem is that the law-abiding citizens and companies are penalized because they can't compete with the law breakers such that the law has again become a barrier to the workings of a free market.
Perhaps the problem is the government's failure to reign in the criminals? Maybe the government enabled all of this by allowing mass immigration and illegal immigration?

Healthcare is similarly complicated. The mixed system we have now is the root of the problem, and it needs to go one way or the other. I'll avoid arguing which way in this thread because there are plenty of other threads on that already.
The problem is that under the way you suggest, millions of people would end up dying due to lack of health care.

The bottom line is that the perceived "problems" with the free market are almost always traceable to the regulations which inhibit the market from working as it would in the absence of those regulations. I'm not saying that a free market will work in all cases, but prohibiting the market from equilibrating in response to market forces (e.g. mass immigration) creates huge problems.
Oh, I fully understand. Remember, I used to be an advocate of laissez-faire myself and engaged in these types of debates all time. If I wanted to play devil's advocate I could convincingly argue what you're arguing; I've made arguments in favor of the free market and argued that government regulations are the real cause of the problems before. However, I now wholeheartedly disagree that the free market will solve these problems satisfactorily and not create other problems.

The solution to American workers losing their jobs to foreigners is not for Americans to accept poverty wages or to remove all environmental and labor regulations. That would just make us even poorer.

I hope you'll question the free market dogma that unregulated markets will magically solve all of our problems. The market works good for some things and bad for others (international trade, health care, general education, land-dependent infrastructure, environmental externalities).
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0
Would Ayn Rand even get a 2nd look if she lived today?

The only reason works like this are so popular is because access to information was so poor back in the dark ages of America.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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But did plant relocate to another country to to another location in the United States?

Anecdotal stories abound if you go looking for them. There are stories about people who have had to train their replacements, etc.

The key word is "asking price". If the asking price is really low then it might be difficult to find people depending on the job.

Are you in industry or academia? What you say doesn't make much sense unless the compensation you're offering is lower than the government minimum. Why would Americans want to spend 9-10 years in college (undergrad + PhD studies) often working 60 hours/week in the lab for $40,000/year anyway?

Do you really think universities and professors are going to want to spend more than $40,000/year on a postdoc? From their own grants? If that $40k/year minimum is true, it probably represents a wage increase for postdocs.

That's ludicrous. What if the competition is willing to do the work for less money or willing to provide more labor output per unit of compensation?

What if the competition is willing to work off-the-books for cash?

Even if the immigrants received the same wages and provided the same amount of labor output per unit of compensation (same value to an employer) they could still displace domestic workers.

And if they worked for those lower wages we would have new problems such as impoverished working poor people needing food stamps, welfare, and Medicaid.

I don't see how competition to be in a race to the bottom is good for workers.

Perhaps the problem is the government's failure to reign in the criminals? Maybe the government enabled all of this by allowing mass immigration and illegal immigration?

The problem is that under the way you suggest, millions of people would end up dying due to lack of health care.

Oh, I fully understand. Remember, I used to be an advocate of laissez-faire myself and engaged in these types of debates all time. If I wanted to play devil's advocate I could convincingly argue what you're arguing; I've made arguments in favor of the free market and argued that government regulations are the real cause of the problems before. However, I now wholeheartedly disagree that the free market will solve these problems satisfactorily and not create other problems.

The solution to American workers losing their jobs to foreigners is not for Americans to accept poverty wages or to remove all environmental and labor regulations. That would just make us even poorer.

I hope you'll question the free market dogma that unregulated markets will magically solve all of our problems. The market works good for some things and bad for others (international trade, health care, general education, land-dependent infrastructure, environmental externalities).
Love it. You're the only person capable of thinking through complex problems, so anyone who has arrived at a different conclusion could only have done so because they are spoonfed their opinions. The stupidity of your position is well summarized by you yourself:
What if the competition is willing to do the work for less money or willing to provide more labor output per unit of compensation?

What if the competition is willing to work off-the-books for cash?
That is the entire point of competition, and working off the books is proof of my point about regulations erecting a barrier between citizens and working, while the law breakers have no problem working outside of those same regulations. You pretend to have it all figured out, but you simply restated the same crap without accounting for anything I said.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I'm one of those people who never made it through any of her books. I wanted to like them, but her writing is, to me, atrocious, stilted and artificial. Her characters are one-dimensional and far too wordy, and I neither liked nor sympathized with any of them.

Maybe I'll see this when it comes on cable. April 21st? Although I'll have to admit the trailer seemed reasonably well done to me.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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I'm one of those people who never made it through any of her books.

I have read about 3 front to back. She really goes on about "socialism bad" for 60-80 pages at a time in one rant. She uses really shoddy non-real world examples of stuff to prove her points and stories in total fantasy-world settings.

Look, I got friends that are dominatrix and stuff who crush dudes balls for cash and the sex stuff I am not the type to get offended over someones kinks. But her 80 pages of Socialism Bad then a passionate rape fantasy.....creepy written like she has major sexual hangups with her femininity where you kinda gotta cringe. She was not even fap worthy. The opposite.

You are lucky, I am a stubborn person who reads the hell out stuff even if I disagree and..it kills me.

The suck is worse then Stephan Kings unabridged It book, that shit was so bad babble for 5000 pages for nothing.

If you look at her life history and the people she was around I can see why she hated the Bolsheviks so much, I would too! But she really went nuts kinda. If anything it annoys me she was pretty disturbed and people have made a cult out of a sad person tbh.

From reading her books I mostly wish free-market anarchist wanna be libertarians would leave her memory be what it is. Really bad literature.
 
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MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
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I have read about 3 front to back. She really goes on about "socialism bad" for 60-80 pages at a time in one rant. She uses really shoddy non-real world examples of stuff to prove her points and stories in total fantasy-world settings.

Look, I got friends that are dominatrix and stuff who crush dudes balls for cash and the sex stuff. Lame. Rape fantasy's. Creepy written like she has major sexual hangups with her femininity where you kinda gotta cringe. She was not even fap worthy. The opposite.

You are lucky, I am a stubborn person who reads the hell out stuff even if I disagree and..it kills me.

The suck is worse then Stephan Kings unabridged It book, that shit was so bad babble for 5000 pages for nothing.

If you look at her life history and the people she was around I can see why she hated the Bolsheviks so much, I would too! But she really went nuts kinda. If anything it annoys me she was pretty disturbed and people have made a cult out of a sad person tbh.

From reading her books I mostly wish free-market anarchist wanna be libertarians would leave her memory be what it is. Really bad literature.

Amen, brother.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I can't abide Objectivism, and her embrace of it shoots down any intellectual credibility as far as I'm concerned.

I'd rather see Rocky MXVII
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Here I can sum the movie up easily.





Capitalism:
train-wreck.jpg

John Galt:Noe! I am rape fantasy man! unpossible!
rape
Socialism Sucks (60 pages)
rape
Socialism is teh bad!
Rape
The rich asshole one-dimensional characters continue to be rich assholes who continue being smug at everyone else for not being the super elite race and live happy ever after being assholes because they can.
The End

(this guide applies to her other "books" too) /facepalm

Why do you think no one actually reads that shit?
 
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That is the entire point of competition, and working off the books is proof of my point about regulations erecting a barrier between citizens and working, while the law breakers have no problem working outside of those same regulations. You pretend to have it all figured out, but you simply restated the same crap without accounting for anything I said.

You missed the entire point. The point was that free trade combined with widespread worldwide poverty (people willing to work for lower wages in one form or another) would result in an averaging out of the U.S. standard of living to third world levels.

Whether or not competition is good and beneficial for society depends on the nature of the competition. I'm not sure Americans benefit from a worldwide competition to see who can work for the least amount of compensation without environmental and labor regulations. Perhaps the top 2% of the population that owns the businesses and that could keep a larger percentage of a worker's contribution to the act of wealth production would benefit, but not the other 98% that's becoming impoverished.

I'm not inherently opposed to having a free market and to competition. I think it's very beneficial under the right circumstances. The issue is whether it is beneficial and good for us as an absolute. One financial writer once said something to the effect that capitalism is good as an internal economic policy but not so good for international trade.
 
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John Galt:Noe! I am rape fantasy man! unpossible!
rape
Socialism Sucks (60 pages)
rape
Socialism is teh bad!
Rape
The rich asshole one-dimensional characters continue to be rich assholes who continue being smug at everyone else for not being the super elite race and live happy ever after being assholes because they can.
The End

(this guide applies to her other "books" too) /facepalm

Why do you think no one actually reads that shit?

I think you're partially confusing Atlas Shrugged with The Fountainhead. If memory serves, there weren't any rapes in Atlas Shrugged and Galt didn't commit any.

The "rape" scene in The Fountainhead wasn't meant to be taken literally as advocacy of rape; it was more for artistic purposes and it was pretty clear what Dominique wanted. If it was rape then it was rape by "engraved invitation". It's like a woman who does everything consistent with wanting to bed down with you to the point of essentially getting naked and climbing into your bed at 2:00 in the morning yet still says, "no" when she really means "yes". Not everything that someone writes about in a novel is meant to be taken as outright advocacy as opposed to being for aesthetic purposes.