ATI Radeon Rage performance / texture popping fix **

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AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,676
3,529
136
Carmack has stated that he worked with both AMD and nVidia. The nVidia drivers released before the game came out work well with it. As usual, AMD released drivers after the game was released. Releasing them before the game came out would be out of character for them.
 

MTDEW

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
4,284
37
91
Carmack has stated that he worked with both AMD and nVidia. The nVidia drivers released before the game came out work well with it. As usual, AMD released drivers after the game was released. Releasing them before the game came out would be out of character for them.
No argument that AMD is slower at releasing game fixes than Nvidia.

How could AMD and id not see the issues before launch?
The final retail game had to be tested on AMD hardware.

This where i get confused, i must not fully understand how a game is tested for retail launch, because i dont see how id and AMD could have missed the issues or claim they didnt encounter the flickering/pop-ups in testing the retail game.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
No argument that AMD is slower at releasing game fixes than Nvidia.

How could AMD and id not see the issues before launch?
The final retail game had to be tested on AMD hardware.

This where i get confused, i must not fully understand how a game is tested for retail launch, because i dont see how id and AMD could have missed the issues or claim they didnt encounter the flickering/pop-ups in testing the retail game.

The game code is burnt on a master disk first, then clone, then package, then ship. This means the game is finished long before its release date. Both AMD and Nvidia are notified about the release date and are expected to release appropriate drivers containing APIs/extensions that are needed to run the game.

Unlike Dx games, Rage requires OGL, which is rarely tested, plus some new extensions that both AMD and Nvidia needs to supply. ID doesn't get a copy of beta driver before us, yet AMD and Nvidia individually send patches to ID for developement. All these patches received by ID are suppose to be in the new driver, but AMD accidentially loaded the incorrect version of OGL packages (or simply forgot) into its latest driver before the game release, and therefore must release a patch to public for the game after its release.

A patch contains code correction for bugs, work around design flaws, and new function points. The problem of patches is that it never gets tested as a whole (Integration Testing.) Without I&T, things that used to work may no longer works, "a fix from one patch may break a fix from another patch", and new bugs and flaws may surface. That means, putting a bunch of patches together and make them all work without breaking other things is, by itself, a difficult task. This is why we have beta/review drivers.

To save time, QA does not test everything (that is all the possible combination of API usages.) Instead, they are given a list of things to test. "Play Rage with the new driver" is not one of these tests, but OGL tests for rage may be in the list. However, just because those tests pass does not mean the game will run flawlessly. As we can see, the game runs, but then artifacts shows up, flickering and bad performance. None of these happened with the patch given by AMD/Nvidia inside ID's lab. It can be the result of "a fix from one patch may break a fix from another patch."

Sending a driver containing nothing but the patches for the game is also very challenging, as the driver may not clean itself properly, it may not support all OS and hardwares. Many of us know how difficult it can be to remove a driver. Some of us know how to use driver sweeper correctly, but most people dont. Not only you have to remove the file associated to the previous driver, but the link to those files within the registry. Unfortunately, Driver sweeper isn't from AMD or Nvidia, it may leave some files, new files/link from beta drivers, behind which lead to problems. The best method is first uninstall the driver, then reboot into safemode, delete all the folders related to the driver(this can be tricky as a)you don't know which folders are related, and b)you may not be able to delete it or its contain due to reference and privilege), and then remove all reference from registry related to the video card(which is also challenging as a mistake can screw up windows completely), and reboot. After all this, the game may run fine but nothing else does. The best way to fix this is to wait for an appropriate driver(not beta or preview) for the game.

Game Engine design is far more complicated than a game design. Game design means "game play", "visual", "sound", and "performance". Game Engine design means "response time", "capabilities", "capacities", "compatibility", "complicity(aka user friendly", "flexibilities", etc which is more to the hardware instead of to the user. Unfortunately, the only way to inteface to hardware, the engine must communicate via the defined set of APIs on the driver. Without APIs, there are no way as each video card use its own language. It is possible to code without a driver, but then the hardware must not change. This is why console is far easier to code as the hardware does not change, and people can code to the hardware directly.

GPU vendor needs to make sure that the API works on all its GPU. However, there are APIs that have not been used for years, and there are physical changes to newer hardwares which make code behind these APIs obsolete, meaning they do not run as fast as it can be, if it still runs at all. I still have games that no longer runs (A-train) because the environment changed so much, and no one really cares.
 
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MTDEW

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
4,284
37
91
The game code is burnt on a master disk first, then clone, then package, then ship. This means the game is finished long before its release date. Both AMD and Nvidia are notified about the release date and are expected to release appropriate drivers containing APIs/extensions that are needed to run the game.

Unlike Dx games, Rage requires OGL, which is rarely tested, plus some new extensions that both AMD and Nvidia needs to supply. ID doesn't get a copy of beta driver before us, yet AMD and Nvidia individually send patches to ID for developement. All these patches received by ID are suppose to be in the new driver, but AMD accidentially loaded the incorrect version of OGL packages (or simply forgot) into its latest driver before the game release, and therefore must release a patch to public for the game after its release.

A patch contains code correction for bugs, work around design flaws, and new function points. The problem of patches is that it never gets tested as a whole (Integration Testing.) Without I&T, things that used to work may no longer works, "a fix from one patch may break a fix from another patch", and new bugs and flaws may surface. That means, putting a bunch of patches together and make them all work without breaking other things is, by itself, a difficult task. This is why we have beta/review drivers.

To save time, QA does not test everything (that is all the possible combination of API usages.) Instead, they are given a list of things to test. "Play Rage with the new driver" is not one of these tests, but OGL tests for rage may be in the list. However, just because those tests pass does not mean the game will run flawlessly. As we can see, the game runs, but then artifacts shows up, flickering and bad performance. None of these happened with the patch given by AMD/Nvidia inside ID's lab. It can be the result of "a fix from one patch may break a fix from another patch."

Sending a driver containing nothing but the patches for the game is also very challenging, as the driver may not clean itself properly, it may not support all OS and hardwares. Many of us know how difficult it can be to remove a driver. Some of us know how to use driver sweeper correctly, but most people dont. Not only you have to remove the file associated to the previous driver, but the link to those files within the registry. Unfortunately, Driver sweeper isn't from AMD or Nvidia, it may leave some files, new files/link from beta drivers, behind which lead to problems. The best method is first uninstall the driver, then reboot into safemode, delete all the folders related to the driver(this can be tricky as a)you don't know which folders are related, and b)you may not be able to delete it or its contain due to reference and privilege), and then remove all reference from registry related to the video card(which is also challenging as a mistake can screw up windows completely), and reboot. After all this, the game may run fine but nothing else does. The best way to fix this is to wait for an appropriate driver(not beta or preview) for the game.

Game Engine design is far more complicated than a game design. Game design means "game play", "visual", "sound", and "performance". Game Engine design means "response time", "capabilities", "capacities", "compatibility", "complicity(aka user friendly", "flexibilities", etc which is more to the hardware instead of to the user. Unfortunately, the only way to inteface to hardware, the engine must communicate via the defined set of APIs on the driver. Without APIs, there are no way as each video card use its own language. It is possible to code without a driver, but then the hardware must not change. This is why console is far easier to code as the hardware does not change, and people can code to the hardware directly.

GPU vendor needs to make sure that the API works on all its GPU. However, there are APIs and has not be used for years, and there are physical changes to newer hardwares which make code behind these APIs obsolete, meaning they do not run as fast as it can be, if it still runs at all. I still have games that no longer runs (A-train) because the environment changed so much, and no one really cares.

Very informative. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks, you explained even more than i asked for.
 

finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
what's wrong with 60 fps? I want my games to run @ 60fps! Anything faster than 60fps, doesn't help the "smoothness" but just increases the overall speed of the game... I don't think we can see anything "smoother" than 60fps...
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,786
789
136
You may want to try doing a complete uninstall (maybe even then running driver sweeper) and then reinstalling the newest rage/bf3 preview driver as it seems to be working fine for most everyone else. It doesn't happen often but every once in a while an install over previous version just seems to go wrong.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

I have it installed on 2 machines (one is literally brand new, v2 drivers are the first to be installed) and after the patch & v2 drivers RAGE is crashing more frequently and suffering large performance drops (Phenom II X6 @ 3.8GHz, 16GB 1600MHz CL7, 5850 1GB CF, 128GB SSD).

I'm shelving RAGE until the new year, hopefully thwey'll have cobbled together enough fixes by then to make it a passable Console port with decent driver support.
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,786
789
136
Tried disabling CF?

CF hasn't been turned on yet, I did try removing one of the cards but the same issue occurs. Strangely on the budget HTPC (if BD was on time this would be a BD system) which has a 6950 2GB (unlocked), Athlon II X4 620 @3.6GGHz, 16GB 1600MHz CL7, Kingston 128GB V100+ SSD and I haven't patched RAGE on is using the v1 drivers without the crashes. Still gets mad texture popup but that is looking more & more like a engine related issue than drivers.

4 PC's, 2 AMD+ATI & 2 Intel+nVidia only 1 of the 4 manages to run RAGE without crashing at every loading screen. Only in the last year have I started to always remove old drivers with sweeper etc since the quality seems to have dropped.

Come January i'm upgrading all 4 systems for the first time since Jan 2010 so i'm gonna spend more time working than playing games for a couple of months to give them time to patch the game & release decent drivers.
 

nenforcer

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2008
1,774
14
81
Hi guys,

I still can not get it to work ok... I installed the patch, nevest "Rage" drivers, tried everything, but game still pauses every few seconds.... Radone 5670 with 512MB of memory... I tried really everything mentioned on the net... what oh what to do?

What CPU Processor do you have?

Try setting the launch option

+vt_maxPPF 8

then if its still to slow try

+vt_maxPPF 4

lastly try

+vt_maxPPF 2

and god forbid you have a single core

+vt_maxPPF 1
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
As of now, the game should not crash if everything configured correctly, or I should say there is at least one configuration for your system to run Rage without crashing. As I have stated Driver sweeper/cleaner does not always do the job as it does not remove all files left by beta/preview drivers. The best way to remove things manually(that is related files, folders, and registries), then use driver sweeper/ccleaner to remove files that are leftover.

If the game still crashes, you will then dig the event log for the crash.

You can try to post the event log associated to the crash, as well as dxdiag log and hijackthis log and some of us may be nice enough to look through it.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
Fail game is fail.

I've pirated to test and its not even worth playing... when its free.


Thanks for the feedback Silver, not that i was ever going to buy a game with as many shades of the color brown as Doom 3, not surprisingly also made by ID.
 

MTDEW

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
4,284
37
91
OK, just one simple queastion?

Did id software use any beta testers???

Almost all players have issues with Rage, and most of them serious ones... how could this game get out in this kind of condition?

Now I got it to "work", but I must say I have never had so much trouble just getting a game to work!

Game experience is killed by technical issues I am experiencing... this is so sad... I`ll just wait for another patch or AMD driver to get out cause I can`t go on loosing my nerves on this one...
But as seero said, all those issues are fixed now.
Did you try creating a cache folder?
Did you try the
AMD Catalyst 11.10 Preview2 [BF3 & RAGE Driver]
?
I'd try those with no custom config.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
Issues are not fixed.... and I tried all of those...
After reading your problem, you experience a pause every few second, which makes the game unplayable. Unfortunately, this seems more like a pc related issue.

If my prediction is correct, the problem is CPU not being utilized correctly on your system. I don't know how it happened, but there are 2 work around, one is to set affinity for the game to all cores, then set the priority to high, or even realtime. The other work around is to run the game with "+jobs_numThreads 0" parameter.

I am assuming that your CPU is not throttling due to heat.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
Hi Seero,

Heat is not the problem, since Mr.Zalman does his job very well :)
I am not the only one with this problem, I`ve read many complaints about this issue on other forums...

But, I have found a solution that works for me just fine.... uninstall ...
I am sorry to hear that, but if that solution works for you, than I have no problems with it. In fact, in your case, that is a wise decision as part of PC Gaming is to re-configure the game to suit hardwares. Finding out which driver has to least bugs along with which OS as well as what settings work best are all parts of the game. Consoles on the other hand, are purely for gaming. Games are plug and play. No driver, no OS, and no settings, just gaming. You don't even need keyboard and mouse, just a joypad.

Think of it, if tweaking isn't part of the game, then why are people upset about the missing GUIs for graphic settings?
 

finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
hmmm... does a demo of this exist? I wanna try it out to see what performance I get ... i7-930 @4.02GHz, 12GB/ GTX480 X-Fi Ti
 

(sic)Klown12

Senior member
Nov 27, 2010
572
0
76
No Demo. But the game is easy to run, and your rig would chew through it without breaking a sweat as long as you didn't try to use the 16K textures. If you did you'd run out of VRAM(needs 1.8+ VRAM) and have horrible stuttering.
 
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finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
i see a ton of videos on youtube with 16k textures running 6850's, 5870's... with 1GB since i have 1.5gb, can't i use 16k?
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
i see a ton of videos on youtube with 16k textures running 6850's, 5870's... with 1GB since i have 1.5gb, can't i use 16k?
Your rig will play the game fine. The game however will not be able to max out your rig as it is optimized for consoles.
 

(sic)Klown12

Senior member
Nov 27, 2010
572
0
76
i see a ton of videos on youtube with 16k textures running 6850's, 5870's... with 1GB since i have 1.5gb, can't i use 16k?

When I use 16K textures, I use all 2GB of VRAM(shown by Afterburner) and see severe stuttering, and a frame rate in the 40s. I also didn't see any noticeable I.Q. gains compared to 8K textures as (my belief)they had to compress the artwork too much to keep the game size down.

This Nvidia link also says that they couldn't get 16K texture running smoothly on anything less than a 3GB GTX 580.
http://www.geforce.com/News/article...-resolution-textures-with-a-few-simple-tweaks
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
This Nvidia link also says that they couldn't get 16K texture running smoothly on anything less than a 3GB GTX 580.
http://www.geforce.com/News/article...-resolution-textures-with-a-few-simple-tweaks
MOST interestingly when they did enable 16K on a 3GB GeForce, they couldn't notice any improvement.
:whiste:
Update: We have now tested the 16384 configuration on a 3GB GeForce GTX 580 and can detect no improvements whatsoever. Based on our new understanding of id Tech 5 it may be possible to see benefits from 16384 at the very highest resolutions in the most demanding situations.
 

cosminache

Junior Member
Apr 2, 2012
3
0
0
i did what you say but still not working please tell me why ??? i have a sapphire ati radeon 6790 at benchmark tell's me is working at hight, but when i run the game rage is running in frames ??? please help me what to do /???
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
i did what you say but still not working please tell me why ??? i have a sapphire ati radeon 6790 at benchmark tell's me is working at hight, but when i run the game rage is running in frames ??? please help me what to do /???

LOL

Be nice...
-ViRGE
 
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BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
I had a play of this last night with my new hardware in eyefinity resolutions and it still doesn't work quite right.

While I didn't notice any texture popping turning on vsync (whether I have tripple buffering enabled in the drivers or not) still results in massive (>500ms!) input lag. If I have vsync off I see enormous amounts of tearing and its really noticeable in this particular game.

Its smooth enough when its running at 60 fps indoors but the moment I get on the buggy it drops to high 20's. This game however in the middle area of ~45 doesn't feel smooth, its stuttering all over the place unless your on 60. Its a shame I really like the combat and I would love to play through it with eyefinity, but with no graphics options I can't fix the darn thing to make it run well enough. They should have spent more time on the name, its a badly chosen name considering what it makes me feel!