ATI not supporting OpenGL with CrossfireX

[Wreckage]

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14355/6

I've excluded the three- and four-way CrossFire X configs here since they don't support OpenGL-based games like this one.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3266&p=7

The three way 3870 solution wasn?t included here because CrossFireX does not yet support OpenGL games

http://www.firingsquad.com/har..._performance/page2.asp

While CrossFire had traditionally supported multiple rendering modes like split frame rendering (SFR), and supertiling, for CrossFireX, the focus (at least initially) is solely on alternate frame rendering (AFR). In addition, for right now CrossFireX support is limited to Direct3D applications,

 

[MegaWorks]

Hey Wreckage, I'm trying to get this. Let's see... What do you exactly want from all this again?

 

[schneiderguy]

This thread is stupid

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

So any games that don't scale above 2 GPU's are "unsupported"?

You should make a thread titled "ATI and nvidia still not supporting 90% of D3D and OpenGL games" to let everyone know

Actually unlike Crossfire you can create your own profiles for games in SLI so that just about all games can be supported.

However I would love to see a link to where you came up with 90% and what you consider that number to be for Crossfire.

Did you not see where I said "ATI and nvidia"? I highly doubt their driver teams spend time optimizing their quad sli/cf drivers for "barbie beach adventures". There are a lot more "kiddie" games released on the PC than "real" games that ATI or nvidia will actually care about.

 

[justly]

Wreckage choose one (and only one).

ATI still not supporting OpenGL

ATI still not supporting CrossfireX (in 3 and 4 way configurations) in OpenGL


Choose the first and (by using your own link in your OP, see below) you are admitting to baiting and disciplinary action should be taken against you.

Choose the second, then edit your threads title to reflect the correction so eveyone can agree and let the thread die a uneventful death.

Choosing neither wont do, that leaves the thread the way it is there by making your choice obvious (the first one).

Using the link from Wreckage in his original post.

The Radeon HD 3870 was able to run an OpenGL benchmark of Enemy Territory, also Crossfired Radeon HD 3870s where also able to run with an improved FPS over a single Radeon HD 3870 at all resolutions.

So obvoiusly ATI is supporting OpenGL.

What is interesting to note is that Wreckage is claiming no OpenGL support because 3 and 4 way Crossfire was "excluded" from the results. He has not proven that 3 and 4 way crossfire prevent the game from running. He also has not pointed out that in two of the three resolutions tested 3 way SLI takes a performance hit when compared to 2 way SLI.

Whats worse, being not yet supported (3 way crossfire) or support that causes a reduction in performance (3 way SLI) ?

 

[nRollo]

My $.02

I think Wreckeage should just change the title to "Crossfire X still has issues with OpenGL" and be done with it.

Obviously ATi supports OpenGL to varying degrees on their products, "still not supporting" isn't specific enough.

CrossfireX (or SLi) having issues with OpenGL is note worthy in a video forum, IMHO.

 

[BFG10K]

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14355/6

I've excluded the three- and four-way CrossFire X configs here since they don't support OpenGL-based games like this one.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3266&p=7
The three way 3870 solution wasn?t included here because CrossFireX does not yet support OpenGL games

http://www.firingsquad.com/har..._performance/page2.asp

While CrossFire had traditionally supported multiple rendering modes like split frame rendering (SFR), and supertiling, for CrossFireX, the focus (at least initially) is solely on alternate frame rendering (AFR). In addition, for right now CrossFireX support is limited to Direct3D applications.

1. ATi's product page states Crossfire X is for two or more GPUs.
   
2. Even if Crossfire X referred to three or more GPUs like you claim, your argument is still wrong since OpenGL games will run, they just won?t scale.
   
3. If scaling is your sole definition of support then I can say something like "nVidia still not supporting tens of thousands of games in SLI".
   
4. Your thread title implies ATi doesn't support OpenGL at all which is grossly inaccurate.
   
5. Your thread title should have been ?OpenGL games not scaling past two GPUs on Crossfire X?, or something similar. Of course you took it as far as possible to the opposite end for baiting/trolling purposes. About the only worse topic title I can think of is ?ATi still not supporting 3D games? which just shows how bad your original title is.

 

[Keysplayr]

Wreckage, you should definitely change your title. Yours is misleading. ATI certainly does support openGL. Just because two or more cards in Xfire doesn't scale with it, doesn't mean the OGL games won't play just fine. If you don't, I'll have to lock the thread for a baiting title. This topic can still be discussed, but not under the pretense of your title.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

ATi's product page states Crossfire X is for two or more GPUs.

What's the difference between Crossfire and CrossfireX? You keep arguing semantics with me, for what reason I have no idea.

Even if Crossfire X referred to three or more GPUs like you claim, your argument is still wrong since OpenGL games will run, they just won?t scale.

CrossfireX is for running games on 3 or more GPUs, except for OpenGL which is not supported, just as Anandtech and Tech Report have stated. You are still arguing semantics instead of the real issue.

If scaling is your sole definition of support then I can say something like "nVidia still not supporting tens of thousands of games in SLI".

Here we go again, turning this into an NVIDIA thing. This thread is not about NVIDIA. Please stop trying to derail the topic. Also your statement is inaccurate because you can use custom profiles for games giving support. However your statement does apply to ATI.

Your thread title implies ATi doesn't support OpenGL at all which is grossly inaccurate.

Your opinion of my thread title is duly noted. People are free to read the thread and understand the issue.

Your thread title should have been ?OpenGL games not scaling past two GPUs on Crossfire X?, or something similar. Of course you took it as far as possible to the opposite end for baiting/trolling purposes. About the only worse topic title I can think of is ?ATi still not supporting 3D games? which just shows how bad your original title is.
[/list]

Can you please refrain from the thinly veiled personal attacks. I think I have responded to you in a much more respectful way, is it too much to ask the same from you? I have now answered your questions. I don't think you need to further attack me or thread crap or derail. Feel free to contact me via a PM if you wish to further discuss it.

EDIT: I have changed the title to address your concerns.

 

[BFG10K]

What's the difference between Crossfire and CrossfireX?

To me it looks like a rebrand of Crossfire with the ability to add up to four GPUs along with more mixing-and-matching capabilities.

In any case ATi's own product page explicitly states it's for two or more GPUs despite what reviewers claim. That?s not semantics, that?s fact.

CrossfireX is for running games on 3 or more GPUs, except for OpenGL which is not supported, just as Anandtech and Tech Report have stated. You are still arguing semantics instead of the real issue.

I'm not arguing semantics, your arguments are simply disingenuous. You're clouding the real issue and making it sound like something it?s not.

Nobody disagrees with your assertion that Crossfire X won?t scale in OpenGL games past two GPUs. I mean how can they given it's a fact?

What we disagree with is your method by which you're communicating this fact.

Also your statement is inaccurate because you can use custom profiles for games giving support.

I've repeatedly pointed out that adding a profile is no guarantee of error-free scaling. Granted, adding a profile is far more flexible than ATi?s non-existent approach, but the issue here is with your definition of ?support?.

Then there's the other matter of games that aren't even 3D so an SLI profile won?t help those.

However your statement does apply to ATI.

Sure, but I'm not the one producing arguments with a double-standard.

Your opinion of my thread title is duly noted. People are free to read the thread and understand the issue.

?Duly noted?? LOL, your thread title was nothing more than a troll designed to bait people into a response.

Can you please refrain from the thinly veiled personal attacks.

Personal attacks? Where? Quote me please.

I've done nothing but attack your arguments with facts and logic. That's not only allowed on a tech forum, it's encouraged.

I don't think you need to further attack me or thread crap or derail.

Nice try, but you made the thread title and its contents but now you're not happy when your arguments are called out. Until you fix the thread title you should expect responses to your claims.

EDIT: I have changed the title to address your concerns.

A marginal improvement at best: ATI not supporting OpenGL with CrossfireX

ATi support OpenGL games with Croffire X and not only that, they?ll scale with two GPUs which according to ATi is still considered Crossfire X.

As for 3 or 4 GPUs, they'll still run OpenGL (i.e you don?t have to reduce the system to two GPUs), just not scale which is certainly true, but your thread title doesn?t reflect that.

 

[Wreckage]

BFG I tried to reason with you. I even changed the thread title. I asked to take it to PM so as not to foul up the thread. But it's clear you only want to argue about it and attack me over it. I will from now on just ignore you, as it will be better for everyone.

:thumbsup:

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
BFG I tried to reason with you. I even changed the thread title. I asked to take it to PM so as not to foul up the thread. But it's clear you only want to argue about it and attack me over it. I will from now on just ignore you, as it will be better for everyone.

Wreckage, BFG is attacking, your arguments and succeeding I might add. He has not gotten personal at all.

Your title was a "trollish baiting title" and still is after you changed it although a bit less. You know why? Because CrossfireX systems still support OpenGL, they just don't scale. so people with CrossfireX systems can still run OGL games. Just not across two, three or more (whatever it truly is) cards.

An appropriate thread title would have been,

"Discussion of OpenGL scaling with CrossfireX"
and for the title comment, something like:
"Why doesn't ATI support OGL CrossfireX scaling?"

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
I don't think you need SLI or crossfire for Open GL game :! Name one exclusive Open gl game that requires SLI or crossfire to run smooth at high res.

I'd say OpenGL is a serious problem for ATi Tuteja.

AnandTech just found a 3870X2 is much slower at ET: QW, and that's been out a long time.

ET: QW problem on 3870X2

Oh come on now... Both sides have immature drivers, they are rushing to the market, like any OTHER computer part. Want me to list the bugs in the firmware of the 750GB drives? Each and every company has some. WD causes vista to hang when coming out of hibernate, Seagate comes with most of the cache disabled and requires a bios fix, samsung F1 drop out of raid arrays and hang on Nforce boards unless you manually configure NCQ setting. Etc etc.

It is just the realities of the market of "release or perish"... and if it lasts long enough, it MIGHT be fixed via a patch before it becomes obsolete. CrossfireX sucks at openGL, GX2 can't do 8x AA (crashing or getting unplayable FPS). Both are probably temporary issues, but they will return with force when those cards age somewhat and multi-gpu support for them becomes sketchy.

Normally you are being fair and reasonable nRollo but here you are being unfair. New tech, especially the multiGPU kind, just lags behind in terms of reliability and compatibility

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Wreckage, BFG is attacking, your arguments and succeeding I might add. He has not gotten personal at all.

He was far from successful. Arguing semantics while skirting the issue. He clearly got personal as I can't see his responses any other way. His intent was clear, to derail the thread and ruin any worthwhile discussion. With a fellow mod backing him, I concede defeat as nothing I can say or do will prevent him from having his way.

Your title was a "trollish baiting title" and still is after you changed it although a bit less. You know why? Because CrossfireX systems still support OpenGL, they just don't scale. so people with CrossfireX systems can still run OGL games. Just not across two, three or more (whatever it truly is) cards.

My title was accurate. The support is not there. I never said "games won't run". That's purely false and is disingenuous to accuse me of such statements. For him to then make accusations towards NVIDIA in a thread that has nothing to do with that issue, is even worse. However, his title affords him certain protections from such scrutiny, so I have no choice but to concede.

I see now the eggshells one must walk upon due to current events. Let BFG have his way and lock this thread. He will only keep derailing it until that happens.

An appropriate thread title would have been,

"Discussion of OpenGL scaling with CrossfireX"
and for the title comment, something like:
"Why doesn't ATI support OGL CrossfireX scaling?"

Maybe we should have a sticky thread called "corporate friendly thread titles".


/thread

 

[Keysplayr]

I'm not backing him because he is a fellow mod. He is going after the argument, not you. As far as I could see, he made zero personal attacks toward you. Show me what I missed?

Don't worry, BFG and I disagree plenty about certain issues, and most likely still will. This is not one of those times.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I'm not backing him because he is a fellow mod. He is going after the argument, not you. As far as I could see, he made zero personal attacks toward you. Show me what I missed?

Don't worry, BFG and I disagree plenty about certain issues, and most likely still will. This is not one of those times.

Well clearly I was mistaken. OpenGL works flawlessly with CrossfireX (which is no different from Crossfire) and it was wrong of me to rely on such disreputable sites like Anandtech and the Tech Report.

 

[BFG10K]

He clearly got personal as I can't see his responses any other way.

I'm still waiting for evidence of this. Please post quotes where I attacked you rather than your arguments and/or thread title.

Thanks in advance. If you don't do put up evidence you need to retract your claims as they are false.

My title was accurate.

This is not only false but your thread title still isn't accurate even after an edit.

However, his title affords him certain protections from such scrutiny, so I have no choice but to concede.

See, this could be classed as a personal attack. You can't discredit my arguments so you try to discredit me on the basis that I'm a mod, as if that somehow implies I'm wrong and it?s the only thing stopping you from proving it.

If you feel I'm abusing my powers and/or violating fourm rules go ahead and post in Personal Issues, a forum I don't even have mod powers in. Heck, you can PM Derek directly if you like. I have nothing to hide.

Well clearly I was mistaken. OpenGL works flawlessly with CrossfireX (which is no different from Crossfire) and it was wrong of me to rely on such disreputable sites like Anandtech and the Tech Report.

This is what's known as dodging the issue with a strawman argument.

After all this will you at least acknowledge Crossfire X constitutes two or more cards as per ATi?s page? Or will you not even do that?

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
BFG I tried to reason with you. I even changed the thread title. I asked to take it to PM so as not to foul up the thread. But it's clear you only want to argue about it and attack me over it. I will from now on just ignore you, as it will be better for everyone.

:thumbsup:

 

[BFG10K]

So, no quotes of these alleged personal attacks and not even an admission of ATi classing two GPUs as Crossfire X?

Thanks for making the agenda of your arguments crystal clear to us all.

Also:

Posted by Wreckage at 03/23/2008 11:36 PM:

I never said "games won't run". That's purely false and is disingenuous to accuse me of such statements.

Posted by Wreckage at 03/19/2008 07:27 PM:

Now CrossfireX won't even run OpenGL games.

I'm glad you agree with me that your arguments are disingenuous.

 

[Wreckage]

BFG I tried to reason with you. I even changed the thread title. I asked to take it to PM so as not to foul up the thread. But it's clear you only want to argue about it and attack me over it. I will from now on just ignore you, as it will be better for everyone.

:thumbsup:

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
So, no quotes of these alleged personal attacks and not even an admission of ATi classing two GPUs as Crossfire X?

Thanks for making the agenda of your arguments crystal clear to us all.

Also:

Posted by Wreckage at 03/23/2008 11:36 PM:

I never said "games won't run". That's purely false and is disingenuous to accuse me of such statements.

Posted by Wreckage at 03/19/2008 07:27 PM:

Now CrossfireX won't even run OpenGL games.

I'm glad you agree with me that your arguments are disingenuous.

:Q

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: thilan29

:Q

I'm glad you agree with me.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: thilan29

:Q

I'm glad you agree with me.

I agree that you should have brought this up but I don't agree with your thread title. It's somewhat inaccurate don't you think since it's not as if games will refuse to load with CrossfireX on OpenGL? It's at best a title designed to bring flames.

I know you're capable of having a more civilized discussion...I guess you like these kinds of threads though...unfortunately most of the time they just degrade the forums. I don't personally care but someone who doesn't know much about video cards could think that ATI cards can't run OpenGL games in Crossfire mode, which is not correct.

Anyway, as I said I don't care personally so continue on doing what you want.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: thilan29

I agree that you should have brought this up but I don't agree with your thread title..

ATI has had a long history of poor support for OpenGL. So if this draws more attention to it, that is a good thing. I would love for AMD to step up and fully support OpenGL.

I could have just as easily created a thread titled "ATI not supporting Windows XP" as CrossfireX does not work with XP. If I had an agenda I suppose.

Maybe I should?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Maybe I should?

If you've been doing this much NV PR work for free, then the least they could do would be to give you Rollo's old graphics cards...just make sure he ships them carefully or they'll be...erm...nevermind.

But really if you want to work for NV, that's quite the unpaid internship you have on your CV. :light:

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Maybe I should?

If you've been doing this much NV PR work for free, then the least they could do would be to give you Rollo's old graphics cards...just make sure he ships them carefully or they'll be...erm...nevermind.

But really if you want to work for NV, that's quite the unpaid internship you have on your CV. :light:

Your admiration is payment enough.