ATI is not HDCP ready

[Wreckage]

Have any of the other ATI boardmakers done this, like Sapphire or HIS?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: fierydemise
The tricky part is the phrasing isn't really false, misleading yes but not false.

There's nothing "tricky" about it, its clearly false misrepresentation of the feature set support. The spec page may not be real clear, however the ATI AVIVO whitepaper states: Link

? HD-Disc playback: Next-generation blue-laser optical discs such as Blu-ray and HDDVD

and

? HDCP capability to enable the viewing of protected content

Sounds like BS to me. ATI is also supposedly shipping OEM cards that fully support HDCP, so any excuse that hardware level support is yet to be full worked out would seem t be BS as well.

Having to pay additional costs to enable hardware support for H264 decoding is a poor move IMO, and false claims for hardware feature support concerning HDCP is even worse. Amazingly, some partners sound to be under the false impression that cards could be patched to include the support later down the road....wrong.

Bad move ATI, bad move

i am looking forward to ATi's reply . . . at least they will probably give one.

looking at their Whitepaper, i believe the legal issues will center around the term "capable". . . . and "playback".


Both nVidia and ATi have some recent PR blunders, it seems.

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Have any of the other ATI boardmakers done this, like Sapphire or HIS?

As far as I know, there is no card out today that is HDCP ready besides some Sony cards.

 

[Keysplayr]

How many people here included HDCP into their buying equation and decided to buy ATI because of it? Probably none of us with the exception of rBV5??? He is usually heavy into this stuff. A class action suit would be rediculous. But it is still going to happen anyway isn't it... I myself haven't even heard of HDCP until this thread appeared. People can simply return their cards ya know. And buy another card that doesn't have HDCP support anyway.. Well, I guess its time to make yet another lawyer a bit richer. Sorry for the drama, I just feel the US population is "sue" happy.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
How many people here included HDCP into their buying equation and decided to buy ATI because of it? Probably none of us with the exception of rBV5??? He is usually heavy into this stuff. A class action suit would be rediculous. But it is still going to happen anyway isn't it... I myself haven't even heard of HDCP until this thread appeared. People can simply return their cards ya know. And buy another card that doesn't have HDCP support anyway.. Well, I guess its time to make yet another lawyer a bit richer. Sorry for the drama, I just feel the US population is "sue" happy.

true . . . only the lawyers will benefit.

too bad the lawyers don't get 'coupons' and the public get the cash refund as settlement.

 

[ronnn]

So what is it with this video stuff? Both companies seem to have scandals and make claims they kwow they can't meet. Is it that important a market segment? The embarrassing part is it is over functions that I only half understand and don't use. For my input: Very bad move ATI, is getting time for some real competition in the vid card market. :thumbsdown:

 

[Avalon]

Trying to remove their HDCP compliant specs off the ATI website is really shady. Yes, they're back, but this whole mess just stinks. If there is no hardware/HDCP key support built into the boards, they are not HDCP ready. It won't be affecting me, but it's the principle.

:thumbsdown:

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
How many people here included HDCP into their buying equation and decided to buy ATI because of it? Probably none of us with the exception of rBV5??? He is usually heavy into this stuff. A class action suit would be rediculous. But it is still going to happen anyway isn't it... I myself haven't even heard of HDCP until this thread appeared. People can simply return their cards ya know. And buy another card that doesn't have HDCP support anyway.. Well, I guess its time to make yet another lawyer a bit richer. Sorry for the drama, I just feel the US population is "sue" happy.

true . . . only the lawyers will benefit.

too bad the lawyers don't get 'coupons' and the public get the cash refund as settlement.

If you're unhappy about the possibility of a coupon settlement, then get involved. Class actions get settled for coupons because the action is brought by class members who aren't actually that interested in the case. Everyone here has the opportunity to change that possible outcome.

Edit Thanks to everyone who's PM'd me--keep 'em coming. I think it would be helpful to hear from people in the following states: New York, California, Georgia.

 

[fierydemise]

What I meant was that depending on how you interpret ready, ATI can say their GPUs are HDCP ready but the card doesn't have the necessary features for full HDCP compliance, if a lawsuit appears will be nothing more then an argument of semantics and the losers will be us. nVidia isn't exactly clean on this issue either but the fact that they don't make video cards provides them with a solid out.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
How many people here included HDCP into their buying equation and decided to buy ATI because of it? Probably none of us with the exception of rBV5??? He is usually heavy into this stuff. A class action suit would be rediculous. But it is still going to happen anyway isn't it... I myself haven't even heard of HDCP until this thread appeared. People can simply return their cards ya know. And buy another card that doesn't have HDCP support anyway.. Well, I guess its time to make yet another lawyer a bit richer. Sorry for the drama, I just feel the US population is "sue" happy.

true . . . only the lawyers will benefit.

too bad the lawyers don't get 'coupons' and the public get the cash refund as settlement.

If you're unhappy about the possibility of a coupon settlement, then get involved. Class actions get settled for coupons because the action is brought by class members who aren't actually that interested in the case. Everyone here has the opportunity to change that possible outcome.

Edit Thanks to everyone who's PM'd me--keep 'em coming. I think it would be helpful to hear from people in the following states: New York, California, Georgia.

i remember you vaguely in another case.

Are you a lawyer?


What damages have we suffered and what do you expect to get for us?

i suspect we can get a "full refund" now?

and i believe it only applies to the x1900 series . . . what is sold - so far - by misleading advertising.

and i believe ATi has to respond before you get us all excited with 'big bucks promised' . . . there won't be any.

and it it might be a "semantics" issue with the case revvolving around capable and playback . . . perhaps there is some limited support.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
How many people here included HDCP into their buying equation and decided to buy ATI because of it? Probably none of us with the exception of rBV5??? He is usually heavy into this stuff. A class action suit would be rediculous. But it is still going to happen anyway isn't it... I myself haven't even heard of HDCP until this thread appeared. People can simply return their cards ya know. And buy another card that doesn't have HDCP support anyway.. Well, I guess its time to make yet another lawyer a bit richer. Sorry for the drama, I just feel the US population is "sue" happy.

true . . . only the lawyers will benefit.

too bad the lawyers don't get 'coupons' and the public get the cash refund as settlement.

If you're unhappy about the possibility of a coupon settlement, then get involved. Class actions get settled for coupons because the action is brought by class members who aren't actually that interested in the case. Everyone here has the opportunity to change that possible outcome.

Edit Thanks to everyone who's PM'd me--keep 'em coming. I think it would be helpful to hear from people in the following states: New York, California, Georgia.

i remember you vaguely in another case.

Are you a lawyer?


What damages have we suffered and what do you expect to get for us?

i suspect we can get a "full refund" now?

and i believe it only applies to the x1900 series . . . what is sold - so far - by misleading advertising.

and i believe ATi has to respond before you get us all excited with 'big bucks promised' . . . there won't be any.

and it it might be a "semantics" issue with the case revvolving around capable and playback . . . perhaps there is some limited support.

You remember me? From what case?

Yes, I'm a lawyer. I'm also an active member of this community who is primarily interested in video graphics technology.

And I haven't promised anything to anyone. I'm only suggesting that people get involved in addition to posting here. In any event, a suit against ATI doesn't strike me as one where huge amounts of money are going to be made by anyone (lawyers included). Rather, I see it as a vehicle to make HDCP more accessible to people who are computer enthusiasts and don't want to buy computers from Sony or Dell.

 

[fierydemise]

Why not go after nVidia too, they're excuse that we make HDCP compliant reference designs doesn't cut any ice with me, if they're going to advertise HDCP capability then they should mandate that board partners use the HDCP reference design.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
How many people here included HDCP into their buying equation and decided to buy ATI because of it? Probably none of us with the exception of rBV5??? He is usually heavy into this stuff. A class action suit would be rediculous. But it is still going to happen anyway isn't it... I myself haven't even heard of HDCP until this thread appeared. People can simply return their cards ya know. And buy another card that doesn't have HDCP support anyway.. Well, I guess its time to make yet another lawyer a bit richer. Sorry for the drama, I just feel the US population is "sue" happy.

true . . . only the lawyers will benefit.

too bad the lawyers don't get 'coupons' and the public get the cash refund as settlement.

If you're unhappy about the possibility of a coupon settlement, then get involved. Class actions get settled for coupons because the action is brought by class members who aren't actually that interested in the case. Everyone here has the opportunity to change that possible outcome.

Edit Thanks to everyone who's PM'd me--keep 'em coming. I think it would be helpful to hear from people in the following states: New York, California, Georgia.

i remember you vaguely in another case.

Are you a lawyer?


What damages have we suffered and what do you expect to get for us?

i suspect we can get a "full refund" now?

and i believe it only applies to the x1900 series . . . what is sold - so far - by misleading advertising.

and i believe ATi has to respond before you get us all excited with 'big bucks promised' . . . there won't be any.

and it it might be a "semantics" issue with the case revvolving around capable and playback . . . perhaps there is some limited support.

You remember me? From what case?

Yes, I'm a lawyer. I'm also an active member of this community who is primarily interested in video graphics technology.

And I haven't promised anything to anyone. I'm only suggesting that people get involved in addition to posting here. In any event, a suit against ATI doesn't strike me as one where huge amounts of money are going to be made by anyone (lawyers included). Rather, I see it as a vehicle to make HDCP more accessible to people who are computer enthusiasts and don't want to buy computers from Sony or Dell.

you're asking a LOT of this old guy to remember what transpired over the last 6 years . . . but vaguely it was a Hot Deals issue that spilled over to OT . . . a monitor?

and i think you have been active in a couple of cases here . . . please, refresh our memories . . . i think there were some positive results, too.

anyway, i think talk of a class action lawsuit may be premature . . . at least till ATi responds.

 

[Woofmeister]

Sadly, I can't take credit for anything that has transpired on this forum previously--good, bad or indifferent. While I've certainly been involved in litigation with computer hardware makers before, the most I've done here on AnandTech is written to Nvidia on an issue which they subsequently remedied to everyone's satisfaction and which they may have done in the course of normal driver development rather than in response to my letter. I would like to wait for ATI to respond as well, but a class action will be filed by somebody next week and I'd hate to see the case captured by somebody who's only interested in money rather than what the computer enthusiast community actually needs.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
Sadly, I can't take credit for anything that has transpired on this forum previously--good, bad or indifferent. While I've certainly been involved in litigation with computer hardware makers before, the most I've done here on AnandTech is written to Nvidia on an issue which they subsequently remedied to everyone's satisfaction and which they may have done in the course of normal driver development rather than in response to my letter. I would like to wait for ATI to respond as well, but a class action will be filed by somebody next week and I'd hate to see the case captured by somebody who's only interested in money rather than what the computer enthusiast community actually needs.

it must have been another suit . . . . . . sorry

and i guess in your case it's dual purpose - Money + HW community needs.

you gotta think like a lawyer

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
Sadly, I can't take credit for anything that has transpired on this forum previously--good, bad or indifferent. While I've certainly been involved in litigation with computer hardware makers before, the most I've done here on AnandTech is written to Nvidia on an issue which they subsequently remedied to everyone's satisfaction and which they may have done in the course of normal driver development rather than in response to my letter. I would like to wait for ATI to respond as well, but a class action will be filed by somebody next week and I'd hate to see the case captured by somebody who's only interested in money rather than what the computer enthusiast community actually needs.

I like this lawyer. What a valuable addition to the community.

I know who you are WoofM, and I know what previous legal disputes you've been involved in. I think this is a much better case than the NV one, and this is totally legit, a bit more serious as its not just a driver issue that can be fixed. Its an outright lie, and one they even tried to cover up. I'm sure they put that info back up because of their legal advisors telling them to do so.

I hope you get justice for all the ATI owners. Hopefully something like a mail-in for a HDCP capable card or a cash payout. I'm guessing it will only affect those with genuine Built By ATI cards though.

Its nice to know you are around to defend us as consumers and have an intimate knowledge of the market.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: Crusader
I know who you are WoofM, and I know what previous legal disputes you've been involved in.

How do you know my secret identity?:laugh:

Anyway, still looking for people from New York, California, Georgia.

 

[Sc4freak]

ATI have nothing to worry about - since Nvidia is in the same boat. ATI never said that all their cards support HDCP, I just checked their website. See here:

http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html

It clearly states that the chip itself supports HDCP, however:

http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1900/radeonx1900xtx/specs.html

ATI's X1900XTX product page does not say anywhere that it supports HDCP. Meaning that the chips support it, but none of the board manufacturers (ATI included) have decided to include HDCP support on the boards, even though the chips allow it. I believe that Nvidia is the same.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: Sc4freak
ATI have nothing to worry about - since Nvidia is in the same boat. ATI never said that all their cards support HDCP, I just checked their website. See here:

http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html

It clearly states that the chip itself supports HDCP, however:

http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1900/radeonx1900xtx/specs.html

ATI's X1900XTX product page does not say anywhere that it supports HDCP. Meaning that the chips support it, but none of the board manufacturers (ATI included) have decided to include HDCP support on the boards, even though the chips allow it. I believe that Nvidia is the same.

[Sigh] http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/522_large_atipage.png

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Sc4freak
ATI have nothing to worry about - since Nvidia is in the same boat. ATI never said that all their cards support HDCP, I just checked their website. See here:

All sorts of wrong. As shown above ATI was listing video cards as supporting HDCP.

Also it would be up to the card maker using NVIDIA chips to have HDCP not up to NVIDIA. I have yet to see a link to a NVIDIA from a board maker (EVGA, BFG, etc). So they are not false advertising.

Also, also if you read the f'n article you would see that Sony does have a computer using a NVIDIA GPU that actually has HDCP up and running.

This is about false advertising. Plain and simple.

 

[fierydemise]

Woofmeister (and Wreckage) that screenshot corresponds to the first link Sc4freak posted, both that link and the picture say HDCP ready referring to the GPU. However the X1900 series product page (revering to the actual video card) says nothing about HDCP. It isn't false advertising, it is entirely truthful to say that the GPU is HDCP ready because it is however it needs a board that has an HDCP key.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Woofmeister (and Wreckage) that screenshot corresponds to the first link Sc4freak posted, both that link and the picture say HDCP ready referring to the GPU. However the X1900 series product page (revering to the actual video card) says nothing about HDCP. It isn't false advertising, it is entirely truthful to say that the GPU is HDCP ready because it is however it needs a board that has an HDCP key.

This is the BBA Radeon X1900 XT page: http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/radeonx1900XT/index.html

Others here: http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/Products.html

This is the Radeon X1900 graphics technology page: http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/index.html

On the GPU tech specs, it says DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready.
On the board tech specs, it does not mention HDCP.

Originally it said HDCP, they removed it, now they have it back, and this all applies to the GPU spec page.

/thread

 

[fierydemise]

xknight I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting the last line of your post, are you saying wording about HDCP compliance was removed and readded on both the board and GPU specs page or just on the GPU specs page?

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Woofmeister (and Wreckage) that screenshot corresponds to the first link Sc4freak posted, both that link and the picture say HDCP ready referring to the GPU. However the X1900 series product page (revering to the actual video card) says nothing about HDCP. It isn't false advertising, it is entirely truthful to say that the GPU is HDCP ready because it is however it needs a board that has an HDCP key.

Perhaps I was too glib in my response to Sc4freak in simply posting ATI's attempt to change the GPU spec after the fact and being caught at it. What I meant to say is that ATI obviously doesn't share the view of some here that ATI is off the hook simply because the actual board specs are silent as to HDCP support. If ATI truly believed that, they would not have gone back and attempted to change the GPU spec after the HDCP story broke. Evidence of an attempt to conceal is powerful evidence of guilt. Ask Scott Peterson if you don't believe me.

Moreover, I'm in agreement with the authors of the original Firing Squad Report that broke this story when they referred to the GPU/Product spec discrepency on ATI's website as The Scapegoat of ?Board Level Support.? Not to put too fine a point on it, but the argument is a cop-out. ATI knows that its own products don't support HDCP (nor does any current ATI GPU-based product), so how can they accurately claim HDCP support for the GPU? How many different specs are video card buyers supposed to have to read in order to get a basic understanding of what they are paying for? You buy an ATI GPU-based card, at a minimum, you have a right to expect the reference functionality.

To quote Firing Squad:

When I go to http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html I see HDCP support listed. Am I supposed to know that the board doesn?t support it because I can go to http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1900/radeonx1900xtx/specs.html and see that HDCP is omitted? If that?s the case, am I supposed to know that the board has ?48 shader processors? when it?s only listed in the GPU specifications page?

ATI is in serious trouble and they know it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Woofmeister (and Wreckage) that screenshot corresponds to the first link Sc4freak posted, both that link and the picture say HDCP ready referring to the GPU. However the X1900 series product page (revering to the actual video card) says nothing about HDCP. It isn't false advertising, it is entirely truthful to say that the GPU is HDCP ready because it is however it needs a board that has an HDCP key.

Perhaps I was too glib in my response to Sc4freak in simply posting ATI's attempt to change the GPU spec after the fact and being caught at it. What I meant to say is that ATI obviously doesn't share the view of some here that ATI is off the hook simply because the actual board specs are silent as to HDCP support. If ATI truly believed that, they would not have gone back and attempted to change the GPU spec after the HDCP story broke. Evidence of an attempt to conceal is powerful evidence of guilt. Ask Scott Peterson if you don't believe me.

Moreover, I'm in agreement with the authors of the original Firing Squad Report that broke this story when they referred to the GPU/Product spec discrepency on ATI's website as The Scapegoat of ?Board Level Support.? Not to put too fine a point on it, but the argument is a cop-out. ATI knows that its own products don't support HDCP (nor does any current ATI GPU-based product), so how can they accurately claim HDCP support for the GPU? How many different specs are video card buyers supposed to have to read in order to get a basic understanding of what they are paying for? You buy an ATI GPU-based card, at a minimum, you have a right to expect the reference functionality.

To quote Firing Squad:

When I go to http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html I see HDCP support listed. Am I supposed to know that the board doesn?t support it because I can go to http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1900/radeonx1900xtx/specs.html and see that HDCP is omitted? If that?s the case, am I supposed to know that the board has ?48 shader processors? when it?s only listed in the GPU specifications page?

ATI is in serious trouble and they know it.

i really doubt it

we're now debating semantics
. . . i think they have a way out

and now you seem to have knowledge of their "attempting to conceal"

seems like quite a stretch and i doubt it will ever make it to court . . .

i am gonna wait for ATi's reply