Does anyone have a cached picture of the 7800 technical specs page because I don't see anything about HDCP support on there, they might have done the same thing as ATI without anyone noticing.
Ronin
Diamond Member
Enter the newb question:
What is HDCP, why do we need/want it, what will it do for the user?
We've been doing okay without it, apparently, so.. What's the big deal?
I'd have thought, too, with the recent advertising turmoil that people would have thought to take adverts with a pinch of salt (Perhaps a handful?), if they didn't already.
What is HDCP, why do we need/want it, what will it do for the user?
We've been doing okay without it, apparently, so.. What's the big deal?
I'd have thought, too, with the recent advertising turmoil that people would have thought to take adverts with a pinch of salt (Perhaps a handful?), if they didn't already.
HDCP stands for High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection.
Windows Vista needs an HDCP compliant monitor + video card.
You can't watch HD-DVD/Blu-Ray on your PC in full quality unless your monitor + video card is HDCP-compliant.
In other words, anyone trying to have a card today that can do these things in the future is out of luck because of the misinformation from ATI and nVidia.
Ahh. Now I see.
Does HDCP have any impact on the garbage that Vista is going to try and run to preveent unlicensed music?
I guess this isn't the place, but I don't understand how Vista is going to work that one out. I mean. Upgrading from XP, for example, is obviously not going to have the right things, surely?
Isn't this the same thing as a tv being HD ready? Meaning it can produce an HD picture, but doesn?t have an HD receiver built in. I find it hard to believe that ATI would be stupid enough to advertise a feature that doesn?t exist.
Edit: Just read ATI?s web site. Almost all their cards are listed as HDCP ready. And they are indeed ready. It's the same deal as with HD TV?s, you will need another piece of hardware to make it work. The entire issue will hinge on the word "ready".
A tempest in a teapot is what this really is.
Edit: Just read ATI?s web site. Almost all their cards are listed as HDCP ready. And they are indeed ready. It's the same deal as with HD TV?s, you will need another piece of hardware to make it work. The entire issue will hinge on the word "ready".
A tempest in a teapot is what this really is.
I agree with you here, Apoppin. Technically, ATI has not misrepresented anything. All they are saying is that the GPU itself is HDCP ready. In other words, if placed on a board where the necessary HDCP hardware is there, it will work. To the vultures (lawyers) who would like to make a quick buck off this... good luck. It's not gonna be an easy case for you.
You misunderstand.
They list their cards as HDCP ready, yet NONE of their cards have the licenses built in needed for HDCP. You can't add those after manufacturing. Every card out now will not deal with HD-DVD/Blu Ray in full quality because the copy protection will not allow it without that license. You can't use them in Windows Vista. There's no extra hardware to "add-on" as this has nothing to do with HDTV.
Woofmeister
Golden Member
- Jul 18, 2004
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You all are much too forgiving of ATI and your views are not shared by the vast bulk of the community. And it's nothing like a TV being HD TV ready. A TV that is HD ready will display an HD picture when hooked up to an HD source. There is no current ATI GPU-based card that will provide you with HDCP support. Nor will any card that is based on any current ATI GPU. That's the end of the story.
And I'm getting a little tired of people claiming that I'm trying to make a quick buck off this. The idea that this is some kind of big money case for a lawyer is laughable. The goal is to force HDCP support as was promised by ATI not to get money back. The Class Action Fairness Act assures that the best a lawyer could recover in a case with that kind of recovery is his customary hourly rate. That's not much of an incentive to take the risk of contingency litigation.
And I'm getting a little tired of people claiming that I'm trying to make a quick buck off this. The idea that this is some kind of big money case for a lawyer is laughable. The goal is to force HDCP support as was promised by ATI not to get money back. The Class Action Fairness Act assures that the best a lawyer could recover in a case with that kind of recovery is his customary hourly rate. That's not much of an incentive to take the risk of contingency litigation.
Right. That's like a contractor saying he doesn't want to take a large scale construction job because he'll only be paid his normal hourly rates? That makes absolutely no sense.
The magnitude of a case like this, if won by a lawyer, could help them get other clients and keeps them making bankroll.
You're a lawyer though, why shouldn't we believe your motives? It's ALWAYS about the bottom line. If not, why don't you find another lawyer to represent this case. Someone that has gone to court over these types of cases before.
Either way, ATI has a right to reply to this. We really have no idea what the boards or drivers are capable of. HDCP isn't even being used by an OS yet and you're putting the horse before the cart. This could take a year to iron out.
Woofmeister
Golden Member
- Jul 18, 2004
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You have no idea what you're talking about. Contractors are guaranteed to get paid if they complete the job. Lawyers on contingency are not. You lose the case, not only do you get nothing, you also eat all your expenses, which can run into the millions.
The "magnitude" of this case is pretty underwhelming and probably does not even make my firm's minimum limit to take the case on. It's publicity value seems pretty dubious as well.
Oh, and how do you know it's "always about the bottom line" for me? You don't know me and you don't know how many hours I gave in free legal advice last year to not-for-profits. Also, you don't know whether or not I have successfully litigated these types of cases before. I have and I've done a pretty good job for the class if I do say so myself.
Nobody is saying ATi doesn't have a right to respond to this. ATI can speak to the public any time and they can and will also make their arguments in court and they will hire the finest lawyers money can buy to make those arguments. That would probably be a better course of conduct for ATI than altering their website after being caught.
I'm sorry but your motivation is crystal clear. Of course they have the RIGHT to respond, but you're not giving them the time. You're ready to burn the witches and ask questions later.
"That being said, ATI seems to have clearly lied about their cards being ?HDCP ready? and I?m sure that a class action is in the offing."
They have clearly lied? You have absolute proof that they lied? You have proof there there is no key on any cards? You are basing everything you know about this on an online article. What's funny, in the article it says that ATI responded to them, but it wasn't clear. The odd thing is they never actually post what ATI reponded with.
So you're not just money thirsty and out for blood? You know for a fact they clearly have lied? You are one HORRIBLE lawyer if you have no research and collaborating testimony from companies who build these cards and the specifications they need to be built buy.
Again, you said it yourself...you give your time to charity. How could you NOT benefit from starting an ATI lawsuit and getting your named involved. Didn't your mom teach you anything? Any publicity is good publicity.
"What I meant to say is that ATI obviously doesn't share the view of some here that ATI is off the hook simply because the actual board specs are silent as to HDCP support."
You seem to know a lot about what is going on. For never having talked to the company about this situation.
Sorry I just don't buy your whole "im out for the little guy" routine. It's a job. Everyone knows it's about the bottom line. You work for a firm and they want to see you work on large scale cases. From your own wording, it appears you damn them first...find out the facts second. You're getting people to PM you with info and causing an uproar for what reason? You don't even have the facts straight yet.
GL with your "cause".
Got it! I did indeed missunderstand. Thank you.
I have to admit that I've never even considered Vista when buying hardware. And I never knew what HDCP was untill I read this thread. I had assumed that like most M$ products, it would be bug ridden and almost unuseable for the first year or two, and require new verisions of all the software I own. So based on my world view, vista is at least three years away, prolly more like four.
And just to stay off topic, the point of HDCP is copy protection only? Or am I missing something again?
Woofmeister
Golden Member
- Jul 18, 2004
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No we just live in a sue happy country. Instead of asking questions, lets just sue them!
But you don't respond to personal attacks. Funny.
EDIT: My question was how you "clearly" know that ATI is lying and that it's obvious that ATI doesn't share the views of it's users. That sounds like slander to me.
Woofmeister
Golden Member
- Jul 18, 2004
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One more time, it "seems like ATI is clearly lying" because they changed their website after the story broke, then they were caught making the change and changed it back: http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/522_large_atipage.png
What other credible explanation is there for changing the website with the GPU specifications?
By the way, a defamatory statement communicated in writing is "libel", only spoken words are "slander." And besides the defense of truth, there's a broad privilege against civil liability afforded to statments of opinion, particularly when those statements are qualified with phrases like "seems like."
Still, that would be funny--ATI suing me for drawing the obvious conclusion from their changing their own website.
There was one change on the webpage (and HDCP ready). The problem is there are several reasons why this could have happened. The problem is you don't KNOW the reasons without talking to the company or their PR department. It could be anything from an uploaded document that had changes. Maybe one of their techwriters thought it was an error..after checking with the engineering team it turns out there is HDCP compliance. Also, when was that original webpage image taken? There's no date and you didn't take the original. Do you research the evidence before claiming someone guilty? Have you followed up with any of the individuals that Daily Tech has spoken to?
Don't you find it odd that they say "We spoke to ATI and asked it why the terminology difference and what the difference was in its view, between compliance and ready. Unfortunately, we did not receive a sound response to that question." - and they didn't feel the need to provide the quote or speak on what ATI says?
Here's the problem.
"When I go to http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html I see HDCP support listed. Am I supposed to know that the board doesn?t support it because I can go to http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1900/radeonx1900xtx/specs.html and see that HDCP is omitted? If that?s the case, am I supposed to know that the board has ?48 shader processors? when it?s only listed in the GPU specifications page?"
The HDCP Ready is ONLY listed on the GPU specs. What does HDCP Ready mean? It means the chip is able to display the resolution when they create cards that support HDCP. Currently NO OS provides HDCP support. The card itself does NOT say HDCP Ready/Compliant. The GPU itself could handle HDCP, but the cards do not.
It's like saying because a car company advertises their navigation system, it should come in every car. Regardless if you look at the stick for the actual car you are buying and it isn't in the car? What sort of dumb logic is that.
You have to research the actual item you are buying, not what it "could" have, but what it does have.
Further more "More AIB partners explained to us that upon the release of Vista, a driver update can be applied to enable HDCP output." Even if that's not the case, it says that you could RMA your card potentially and get a new one when they have boards with support if the driver option isn't viable.
I just think there is more to this than just jump up and sue someone. That's the american money grubbing way. If ATI indeed does not offer support for the HDCP cards, that's one thing. But we won't know till they respond. THEN that's the time to act.
Woofmeister
Golden Member
- Jul 18, 2004
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Thank you for managing to come up with a more reasoned and civil response. You see, it's not so hard.
As to your explanation as to why ATI changed the website, if you read the OP, the sequence of events would be clear. Daily Tech showed the edited webpage as of February 17. The Google cache for that page available the same day showed the older page (meaning the change was very recent). Later that day, the original unedited page is back. So you see, I'm not buying your argument that the whole thing was an innocent mixup considering how the page was magically changed right when the HDCP controversy got going.
And you seem to be confused as to how freely corporations respond to inquiries and requests for interviews prior to suit being filed. They won't say anything to me and they would be crazy to do so. That's because whatever I learned would simply be a "free look" that I could use to strengthen my claims. The only way I will get ATI to provide that access is in court-ordered discovery. And in order to get to discovery I will have to survive a motion to dismiss and likely have to get a class certified, both of which are significant hurdles to the case going forward. Do you understand now why lawyers sue big companies rather than asking questions first?
By the way, if anyone from ATI is reading this, I would love to come talk to you about this potential case! Feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to fly up to Canada to speak with your employees.
As to your metaphor of the nav system being an available option on a car, you've actually hit the nail on the head as to why ATI's HDCP representations are false. There's no indication in ATI's literature that HDCP support is an "option" and even if you wanted to order the option, you can't because it doesn't exist in any card sold. ATI is claiming that every car has the nav system because that is a fundamental feature of the product.
I can accept the fact that you think all lawyers are money grubbing SOBs (Do you actually know any lawyers by the way?), but I can't accept the fact that you think that somehow ATI is the victim here.
rbV5
Lifer
- Dec 10, 2000
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I bought my display with HDCP protection in mind, ATI has been touting HDCP compliance since at least 8500 series cards, so in my mind it wasn't an issue with the card...it was a given (wrong). The fact that the marketing teams of these manufacturers continue to tout features that simply aren't enabled or available is an insult to the enthusiast community. It will continue to be an issue as long as the community accepts it as OK.
Class action is one avenue available, forum posting and raising the issue is the avenue I'll take personally.
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