ATI card to use FlowFX like cooling system

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: chizow

can you reasonably buy an Nvidia FX card w/o one??

yes.

Can you buy FX Ultra without one?

 

[paralazarguer]

ALL GF FX Ultras are sold with the dustbuster. That is a FACT

That's wrong. A third party manufacturer made a GeForce 5800 FX Ultra with two normal cooling fans instead of the FLOW FX. Chiznow has tried to explain this several times but some people are too stupid...

 

[paralazarguer]

Can you buy FX Ultra without one?

Yes.

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: paralazarguer

ALL GF FX Ultras are sold with the dustbuster. That is a FACT

That's wrong. A third party manufacturer made a GeForce 5800 FX Ultra with two normal cooling fans instead of the FLOW FX. Chiznow has tried to explain this several times but some people are too stupid...

You mean the ridiculous card where the entire card was inside a box? They just replaced one idiotic cooling-solution with even more idiotic one. Fact remains that Ati-cards can be had with normal-cooling-solutions, FX Ultra can not

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: paralazarguer

Can you buy FX Ultra without one?

Yes.

Can you buy it with NORMAL cooling-solution?

To clarify:

This is normal cooling

This is normal as well

This is not

Neither is this

 

[T9D]

..

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Nemesis77

Originally posted by: paralazarguer

Can you buy FX Ultra without one?

Yes.

Can you buy it with NORMAL cooling-solution?

To clarify:

This is normal cooling

This is normal as well

This is not

Neither is this

Your perception of "normal" cooling is neither here nor there. Advancements in technology require advancements in cooling, plain and simple.

This was "normal" cooling 3 years ago.

Before that, GPUs didn't even require a heatsink. Look at the CPU cooling industry. We've gone through a similar progression, from a simple integrated heatspreader to passive cooling, to active cooling, to water/vapochilll and other forms of cooling. What you consider to be "normal" is a brief snapshot in time. If your perceptions were pervasive, there'd be no innovation, b/c everything existent today would be the end-all, be-all and there would be no need for progress.

- Card-manufacturers are free to use whatever cooling-method they prefer

We've already established that, but somehow people like yourself still insist that all nVidia OEMs are bound to the reference cooler, despite the fact there are examples where this is clearly not the case (for the Ultra and the rest of the FX line).

 

[BoberFett]

chizow

In general, I agree with your statement. However, those previous jumps in cooling methods were accompanied by a simultaneous jump in the technology that was being cooled. In the case of the 5600 Ultra, it's more of an equal to previous technology than it's superior, yet it still needs that new cooling method. I think everyone here would agree that if the 5800 Ultra were far above and beyond what the competition could provide, they'd have a reason to use such a monstrous cooler. As it is, 5% faster but 100% hotter just makes it look like an engineering mistake.

 

[Spicedaddy]

Originally posted by: paralazarguer

ALL GF FX Ultras are sold with the dustbuster. That is a FACT

That's wrong. A third party manufacturer made a GeForce 5800 FX Ultra with two normal cooling fans instead of the FLOW FX. Chiznow has tried to explain this several times but some people are too stupid...

Please tell me you're not referring to that Leadtek abomination??


From DustBuster to GhettoBlaster...

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Spicedaddy

Originally posted by: paralazarguer

ALL GF FX Ultras are sold with the dustbuster. That is a FACT

That's wrong. A third party manufacturer made a GeForce 5800 FX Ultra with two normal cooling fans instead of the FLOW FX. Chiznow has tried to explain this several times but some people are too stupid...

Please tell me you're not referring to that Leadtek abomination??


From DustBuster to GhettoBlaster...

Wow!

Hey, check this cooling out!

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
chizow

In general, I agree with your statement. However, those previous jumps in cooling methods were accompanied by a simultaneous jump in the technology that was being cooled. In the case of the 5600 Ultra, it's more of an equal to previous technology than it's superior, yet it still needs that new cooling method. I think everyone here would agree that if the 5800 Ultra were far above and beyond what the competition could provide, they'd have a reason to use such a monstrous cooler. As it is, 5% faster but 100% hotter just makes it look like an engineering mistake.

I agree that the part is underperforming, but performance and technology aren't always synonymous. .13micron is still in its infancy, but die-shrinks historically yield much better performance after initial "shrinking" pains. Later revisions should result in cooler operating temperatures which would eliminate the need for better cooling (for the time being at least), or as you mentioned they will offer performance increases that may justify the need for more intrusive cooling. But at the end of day, the "normal" cooling argument stands on a slippery slope that is never constant nor fixed in time.

Chiz

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: chizow
Your perception of "normal" cooling is neither here nor there. Advancements in technology require advancements in cooling, plain and simple.

This was "normal" cooling 3 years ago.

Before that, GPUs didn't even require a heatsink. Look at the CPU cooling industry. We've gone through a similar progression, from a simple integrated heatspreader to passive cooling, to active cooling, to water/vapochilll and other forms of cooling. What you consider to be "normal" is a brief snapshot in time. If your perceptions were pervasive, there'd be no innovation, b/c everything existent today would be the end-all, be-all and there would be no need for progress.

- Card-manufacturers are free to use whatever cooling-method they prefer

We've already established that, but somehow people like yourself still insist that all nVidia OEMs are bound to the reference cooler, despite the fact there are examples where this is clearly not the case (for the Ultra and the rest of the FX line).

well, technically, sticking a fan on a heat sink isn't active cooling. a tec or a heat pipe or water cooling is, though.

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: chizow
Your perception of "normal" cooling is neither here nor there. Advancements in technology require advancements in cooling, plain and simple.

And yet, the fact remains that Radeon gets better performance with far less cooling. And if you look what's normal TODAY, you will notice that the cooling on FX Ultra is anything but normal. FlowFX and the like might become the norm sometime in the future, but they are not that TODAY. You keep on talking how things used to be in the past and how they might be in the future. I'm talking about what's reality TODAY.

We've already established that, but somehow people like yourself still insist that all nVidia OEMs are bound to the reference cooler, despite the fact there are examples where this is clearly not the case (for the Ultra and the rest of the FX line).

And the fact remains that every single manufacturer (except one that opted for even more idiotic cooling) uses the dustbuster on their Ultra-model. Sure, they might be free to modify the cooling-solution, but they do not do so. As far the end-user is converned, all FX Ultra's have idiotic cooling-solution, and if you don't want it, you have to get the regural FX (and accept the crappy performance)

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Nemesis77
And yet, the fact remains that Radeon gets better performance with far less cooling. And if you look what's normal TODAY, you will notice that the cooling on FX Ultra is anything but normal. FlowFX and the like might become the norm sometime in the future, but they are not that TODAY. You keep on talking how things used to be in the past and how they might be in the future. I'm talking about what's reality TODAY.

Again, performance has nothing to do with this. You might as well compare a .15 Athlon to a .13 Northwood on a clock for clock basis when comparing performance and temperatures. You just can't do it. It looks like you're basing your arguments as of YESTERDAY, because as of TODAY, technological advancements (.13 micron GPUs) have rendered any perceptions of "normality" to be antiquated.

And the fact remains blah blah blah

I guess you'll have to revise your earlier "facts" as you've obviously got a bad case of selective memory. If you need a refresher on the fact as you stated then TODAY, here they are:

Originally posted by: Nemesis77

Originally posted by: chizow
The irony and double-standards in this thread (and on this board in general) are amusing:

nVidia releases preview GF FX Ultra boards with reference PCB and cooling to reviewers. Despite knowing and acknowledging nVidia doesn't choose the cooling or design for the end-market nVidia graphics cards, fanATics go apesh!t and AT forums are spammed to no end with photochopped links and school yard humor.

Here are the facts:

ALL GF FX Ultras are sold with the dustbuster. That is a FACT. The Dustbuster was the product NV sent to the reviewers. The ones without the dustbuster are regural FX's (the "even slower FX" ).

People laughed at NV because:

-If you want a FX Ultra, you have to get the dustbuster as well
-There is a FX with no dustbuster "available" (still haven't seen them anywhere), but it's considerably slower

Fast forward to today:

An actual AIB maker, albeit an obscure one, releases specifications for a nearly identical cooling solution that will actually be implemented on their shipped retail products, and said fanATics resort to semantics and grammar in attempts to discredit the poster.

The difference is that if you want a 9700Pro (or 9800Pro), you can get it with "normal" cooling. If you want a FX Ultra, you have to get it with that ridiculous cooling-solution.

 

[Spicedaddy]

Nemesis, stop wasting your time, chizow has never been wrong in his life and never will be...

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Nemesis77
And yet, the fact remains that Radeon gets better performance with far less cooling. And if you look what's normal TODAY, you will notice that the cooling on FX Ultra is anything but normal. FlowFX and the like might become the norm sometime in the future, but they are not that TODAY. You keep on talking how things used to be in the past and how they might be in the future. I'm talking about what's reality TODAY.

Again, performance has nothing to do with this.

Yeah, sure. Let's see.... Should I get a vid-card with normal and relatively silent cooling that performs really, really well, or should I get a slower vid-card with ridiculous and noisy cooling? Oh, but according to you, the performance is irrelevant. If we can't compare the performance if the cards, what are we supposed to compare? If we drop the performance from the equation, we still have a (more or less) silent card with reasonable cooling as opposed to one with a turbine on top of it.

You might as well compare a .15 Athlon to a .13 Northwood on a clock for clock basis when comparing performance and temperatures. You just can't do it. It looks like you're basing your arguments as of YESTERDAY, because as of TODAY, technological advancements (.13 micron GPUs) have rendered any perceptions of "normality" to be antiquated.

What the hell are you talking about? Fact is that Dustbusters are a rarity TODAY. 99% of vid cards ship with either a heatsink or heatsink/fan-combo. Elaborate dustbusters or ghettoblasters are an oddity and NOT the norm. Just because NV needs them just to get acceptable performance does NOT make them the norm.

When I compare the vid-cards in question, in this case I look at their performance and the cooling the card requires to reach it. And I see that whole Radeon is perfeclty OK with normal cooling, FX requires insane cooling just to reach parity (barely) with R9700Pro (and don't even get me started on 9800Pro ). But since you seem to be all-knowing, how do you suggest we compare Radeon and FX?

I guess you'll have to revise your earlier "facts" as you've obviously got a bad case of selective memory. If you need a refresher on the fact as you stated then TODAY, here they are:

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Fact still is that all FX Ultras (except the Leadtek monstrosity) comes with the dustbuster. And the fact is that Ati does alot better with alot less cooling.

Chizow fanboi-meter:

NVIDIA[X------|-------]ATI

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Spicedaddy
Nemesis, stop wasting your time, chizow has never been wrong in his life and never will be...

I've never made that claim, I merely state my opinion based on the information available. But at least I don't need to revise my "facts" within a single thread to try to prove a point.

Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Again, what the hell are you talking about? Fact still is that all FX Ultras (except the Leadtek monstrosity) comes with the dustbuster.

There are other examples of non-reference coolers on the Ultra, you're just too ignorant to acknowledge the "fact" unless its bludgeoned across your forehead. Do some research and get your "facts" straight. Nice argument by the way: XYZ = True, mutually exclusive of XY.

You contradict yourself within your own argument: If its fact that all FX Ultras come with the dustbuster, then even 1 instance where that is not the case proves your argument to be invalid. That was the only argument to begin with. The person who originally posted the assumption has accepted the FACT that not all of the Ultra FXs will have the reference cooler, yet you can't. Odd.

And the fact is that Ati does alot better with alot less cooling.

I never said the 9700pro didn't perform better with less cooling, as performance is only an issue b/c you brought it up. The original poster asked if you could purchase an FX w/out the reference cooler, which is true. The original poster asked if you could purchase the 9700pro w/out a similar cooler, which is also true.

Thanks for the nice graphic, I hope you don't mind if I make some adjustments to it.
Nemesis77 fact-accuracy-meter:

BullSh!t[X------|-------]FACT

Have a nice day!

Chiz

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: chizow
There are other examples of non-reference coolers on the Ultra, you're just too ignorant to acknowledge the "fact" unless its bludgeoned across your forehead.

OK. Show me FX Ultras that don't have the dustbuster or equivalent. Something like the cooling-solution on the Radeon for example. And even if you did find one, it is still a FACT overwhelming majority of Ultras ships with the dustbuster or similarly idiotic cooling-solution. Do you dispute that fact?

You contradict yourself within your own argument: If its fact that all FX Ultras come with the dustbuster, then even 1 instance where that is not the case proves your argument to be invalid.

Semantics. The Leadtek monstrosity is just as bad as the dustbuster is. I asked that are there any Ultras with normal cooling. Apparently there are not.

That was the only argument to begin with. The person who originally posted the assumption has accepted the FACT that not all of the Ultra FXs will have the reference cooler, yet you can't. Odd.

Sure, the Leadtek-card doesn't have the reference-cooler, but it has something just as bad. End-result: same. Fact remains that the Ultra requires insane cooling, cooling that can't be reached using normal methods.

I never said the 9700pro didn't perform better with less cooling, as performance is only an issue b/c you brought it up. The original poster asked if you could purchase an FX w/out the reference cooler, which is true. The original poster asked if you could purchase the 9700pro w/out a similar cooler, which is also true.

Can FX Ultra be bought with normal cooling? Nope. At least, I haven't seen any. All I have seen is dustbuster after dustbuster and a ghettoblaster from Leadtek. Overwheliming majority of the Ultras ship with the dustbuster. The one that doesn't ship with the dustbuster, ships with equally stupid ghettoblaster.

And you didn't answer my question: how should we compare Radeon and the FX, is performance is irrelevant?

 

[SexyK]

Semantics. The Leadtek monstrosity is just as bad as the dustbuster is. I asked that are there any Ultras with normal cooling. Apparently there are not.

Not trying to jump into the rediculousness here, but I'm just curious if you could actaully have provide some facts as to why the Leadtek card is "just as bad" as the FXflow. I haven't seen any reviews of it yet, but there's no indication that it's anywhere near as loud as the reference cooler. Who cares what it looks like if it provides a stable card with reasonable noise levels? You seem to write off any cooling system that isn't a fan sitting on a square heatsink as a "monstrosity" for no real reason whatsoever.

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: SexyK

Semantics. The Leadtek monstrosity is just as bad as the dustbuster is. I asked that are there any Ultras with normal cooling. Apparently there are not.

Not trying to jump into the rediculousness here, but I'm just curious if you could actaully have provide some facts as to why the Leadtek card is "just as bad" as the FXflow. I haven't seen any reviews of it yet, but there's no indication that it's anywhere near as loud as the reference cooler. Who cares what it looks like if it provides a stable card with reasonable noise levels? You seem to write off any cooling system that isn't a fan sitting on a square heatsink as a "monstrosity" for no real reason whatsoever.

Well for starters, it has TWO fans. Not one, but two. And it vents that hot air in to the case (something dustbuster doesn't do). And yes, the dustbuster and the ghettoblaster are monstrosities in my book.

 

[SexyK]

Originally posted by: Nemesis77

Originally posted by: SexyK

Semantics. The Leadtek monstrosity is just as bad as the dustbuster is. I asked that are there any Ultras with normal cooling. Apparently there are not.

Not trying to jump into the rediculousness here, but I'm just curious if you could actaully have provide some facts as to why the Leadtek card is "just as bad" as the FXflow. I haven't seen any reviews of it yet, but there's no indication that it's anywhere near as loud as the reference cooler. Who cares what it looks like if it provides a stable card with reasonable noise levels? You seem to write off any cooling system that isn't a fan sitting on a square heatsink as a "monstrosity" for no real reason whatsoever.

Well for starters, it has TWO fans. Not one, but two. And it vents that hot air in to the case (something dustbuster doesn't do). And yes, the dustbuster and the ghettoblaster are monstrosities in my book.

Well, all the heat from ATI's "superior" design is vented straight into the case (actually its not really vented at all, it just sits there) so i don't see your point there. And two fans doesn't mean anything at all. If they are low RPM fans, it's going to be quiet one fan or two. You've probably got 5 or 6 fans in your case as it is anyway.

Kramer

PS - For the record, I'm running a 9500 Pro right now, so I'm no nVidia zealot, I just don't thnk you're being very fair here.

 

[ndee]

what if they use a uber-silent fan? it doesn't look like that system would use another PCI slot.

 

[paralazarguer]

Why? How loud do you think the ghettoblaster is? Why is having two slow fans a bad thing?

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: SexyK
Well, all the heat from ATI's "superior" design is vented straight into the case (actually its not really vented at all, it just sits there) so i don't see your point there.

Yep, but the chip runs cooler to begin with, so it's not as big of a problem than it is with FX.

And two fans doesn't mean anything at all. If they are low RPM fans, it's going to be quiet one fan or two. You've probably got 5 or 6 fans in your case as it is anyway.

Let's see:

Vidcard
CPU
Powersupply

That's three fans. If you add case-fan to the mix, you will have 4. some run 2-3 case-fans, but I guess they are in a minority. And two GPU-fans: more noise.

 

[Spicedaddy]

Originally posted by: paralazarguer
Why? How loud do you think the ghettoblaster is? Why is having two slow fans a bad thing?

You know any quiet GhettoBlasters? It's like they're making a joke out of how noisy their card is by making it look like a stereo.



Seriously though, even if I don't like it, the DustBuster seems to be a better solution than Leadtek's. That metal box looks like it's trapping the heat from the memory, and other components on the card, and I really doubt they're using quiet fans... (we'll see in reviews) At least the DB expells hot air out of the case, it wouldn't be so bad if they made it quieter...