• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Atheists face death in 13 Muslim countries

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Doc Savage Fan said:
Christians have been persecuted in Muslim countries for many, many years. It's estimated that 100,000 Christians are killed annually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians




I find it odd the OP expressed no concern for Christians which carry the brunt of Muslim intolerance. I guess it suddenly hit home with him since he's an atheist and just found out atheists were also being targeted. Well...if that's what it takes to get his attention and concern...then so be it.
Click to expand...

I find your use of this carefully chosen counter-example to be disingenuous.

First of all, the OP was drawing from an article which is about a particular topic: the number of countries which impose the death penalty for atheism. There isn't any data in the article about other groups. One could be critical of the article for that, but then, it shouldn't surprise anyone to know that there are groups which compile data about Christians being persecuted and don't bother to compile data on atheists being persecuted. Such is the way of the world.

Moreover, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The numbers game is particularly misleading. There are at least 20x as many Christians as atheists in the world, and atheists are a bit harder to persecute because they're harder to spot. Religious minorities have a dangerous habit of praying in public.

More importantly, the scope of the article the OP cites is important and non-arbitrary. The importance of laws imposing the death penalty for atheism is that these are theocratic governments and this is an example of what happens with a theocratic form of government. This article isn't really about atheists being persecuted per se. It's about considering the consequences of having no wall of separation between church and state. Another consequence could be laws imposing the death penalty for adhering to a minority religion, say being a Christian in a Muslim country. I don't think any of those countries impose the death penalty for Christianity, but then again they certainly could. It is consistent with concept of a theocratic government.

It is especially significant when a nation through its laws or the actions and behavior of its leaders, either endorses religion, or penalizes either the practice of religion, or the lack thereof. It was only 25 years ago that the President of these United States had this to say about atheists:

No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God.… I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.
Click to expand...

Your citation of statistics regarding Christians being persecuted is another important and weighty topic, but it isn't quite the same topic. One can simply be outraged that a government would impose the death penalty for atheism. It doesn't preclude one from also being outraged at people of various religions being persecuted. Yet the two concerns need not be joined. They are just entirely different discussions topics. You could just as easily trot out any of a myriad of atrocities and inhumanities to add to your counter-example, and ask why he hasn't expressed equal concern about each in his post.
 
Last edited:
ThinClient said:
Wrong.

The Old Testament is still part of the Bible, which defines Christianity. The god of the Old Testament is the same god as the god of the New Testament, that Christians worship. The OT god is guilty of mass murder and genocide, infanticide, and a host of other atrocities.

Christians hypocritically look down their nose at other religions and shake a finger at how violent they are while conveniently ignoring the fact that their god is easily the most violent and capricious figure in philosophical history.

If Christians are going to claim the New Testament, they're required to claim the old as well. The law of the old testament doesn't apply anymore because Christ's dying on the cross fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant, but that doesn't change the fact that their god is still a fucking unethical, immoral animal.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct in stating that God had all those people killed by the Israelites. He also has every right to kill each and every person who was alive since including you and me. The artist has every right to slash the canvas.
 
spittledip said:
The artist has every right to slash the canvas.
Click to expand...
The canvas isn't a sentient individual. Your analogy is bad.

And who says God has that right, in the first place? Rights are the those respectful courtesies we grant to eachother as fellow members of the human race. I know that I do not grant that right to any god.

So he has that right because you say so?
 
spittledip said:
You are absolutely correct in stating that God had all those people killed by the Israelites. He also has every right to kill each and every person who was alive since including you and me. The artist has every right to slash the canvas.
Click to expand...

...while claiming to be a moral, ethical, loving god of peace?

Get the fuck out of here.

Your post is the same kind of bullshit justification that Muslims use to kill people who disagree with them. PRAISE JESUS!
 
Last edited:
ThinClient said:
...while claiming to be a moral, ethical, loving god of peace?

Get the fuck out of here.

Your post is the same kind of bullshit justification that Muslims use to kill people who disagree with them. PRAISE JESUS!
Click to expand...

It is pure logic. The one who makes has the right to destroy. If there is a God who made the universe, then He also makes the rules. If we are found lacking (and, according to the Bible that you are quoting, we are all found lacking being born in sin), He has every right to do as He wishes. Even if we aren't found lacking He can do as He wishes and destroy... however this is against His nature.

Regarding the passages you quoted, you will notice that these only pertain to the nation of Israel during the time of the Theocracy. You will also note that God wanted a holy people unstained from sin, and set rules in place to set the nation apart as far as sin and also in terms of appearances of holiness- imagery relating to perfection. As our friend Kung Lau already posted, Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law in His death. The extreme example of holiness is no longer needed as Christ fulfilled it where Israel, as the example of man's inability to live up to God's holiness, failed. Israel was meant to fail as it is impossible to completely fulfill the law as humans, but not in a way that required the discipline they needed (see Babylonian and Assyrian captivity).

This is not to say that God does not still expect holiness in relation to sin, however He no longer expects the ritualistic aspects as those were the "shadows" that Paul talks about.
 
All this stuff said, obviously it is horrible and bad that people are being executed for their beliefs. I am not sure what there is to argue about in regard to that.
 
To add to that, God doesn't destroy without giving those he's about to destroy the chance to change their ways. It's not something he just does out of the blue, and those that are receive plenty of warning. God may tolerate unholiness for a while, but at some point either in this life or the next, the wicked will be destroyed, and he has every right to do so.
 
spittledip said:
It is pure logic.
Click to expand...
You clearly do not understand what logic is.

The one who makes has the right to destroy.
Click to expand...
Preposterous. This is merely a postulate of yours, not some derived fact.

If there is a God who made the universe, then He also makes the rules.
Click to expand...
What rules?

If we are found lacking (and, according to the Bible that you are quoting, we are all found lacking being born in sin), He has every right to do as He wishes. Even if we aren't found lacking He can do as He wishes and destroy... however this is against His nature.
Click to expand...
Only credulous fools accept this nonsense, and it is the reason why Christians have a reputation for being credulous fools.
 
Ventanni said:
To add to that, God doesn't destroy without giving those he's about to destroy the chance to change their ways.
Click to expand...
Did God know he was going to destroy those people when he created the universe?

It's not something he just does out of the blue, and those that are receive plenty of warning.
Click to expand...
What were the Amalekite babies going to do with that?

God may tolerate unholiness for a while, but at some point either in this life or the next, the wicked will be destroyed, and he has every right to do so.
Click to expand...
Yes, those wicked, wicked infants. Surely they deserved to be put to the sword.
 
spittledip said:
It is pure logic. The one who makes has the right to destroy. If there is a God who made the universe, then He also makes the rules. If we are found lacking (and, according to the Bible that you are quoting, we are all found lacking being born in sin), He has every right to do as He wishes. Even if we aren't found lacking He can do as He wishes and destroy... however this is against His nature.

Regarding the passages you quoted, you will notice that these only pertain to the nation of Israel during the time of the Theocracy. You will also note that God wanted a holy people unstained from sin, and set rules in place to set the nation apart as far as sin and also in terms of appearances of holiness- imagery relating to perfection. As our friend Kung Lau already posted, Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law in His death. The extreme example of holiness is no longer needed as Christ fulfilled it where Israel, as the example of man's inability to live up to God's holiness, failed. Israel was meant to fail as it is impossible to completely fulfill the law as humans, but not in a way that required the discipline they needed (see Babylonian and Assyrian captivity).

This is not to say that God does not still expect holiness in relation to sin, however He no longer expects the ritualistic aspects as those were the "shadows" that Paul talks about.
Click to expand...

Wow, look at all this crazy bullshit.

Ventanni said:
To add to that, God doesn't destroy without giving those he's about to destroy the chance to change their ways. It's not something he just does out of the blue, and those that are receive plenty of warning. God may tolerate unholiness for a while, but at some point either in this life or the next, the wicked will be destroyed, and he has every right to do so.
Click to expand...

Your impotent god hasn't had a kid in over 2000 years, lol (or ever depending on who you ask). Threats of punishment for unbelievers/sinners ring as hollow as the inside of your cranium.
 
The extermination of the Amalekites is a well discussed, studied, and even criticized era of Jewish history. While I can't always claim to understand God's reasoning for his commandments, based on my experiences and my own story, there's probably a good reason behind it that is beyond both yours and my own understanding. This tribe did, after all, stand in the way and attack the Jewish tribes as they left Egypt, and God has made it pretty clear that those who attempt to destroy his chosen people will, in the end, be destroyed themselves. We may be able to argue his methods, but we can't argue his consistency.

I don't disrespect your belief here by the way. For the sake of having an honest, cooperative discussion where we listen to what each other has to say, let's just be honest here; a lot of people have issues with having to accept the fact that not everything that happens in life is something we'll understand. Why did God choose to exterminate the Amalekites? Why do children go hungry and suffer? Heck, I'll even pull an experience with my own life just to show you that I understand where you're coming from; why did the love of my life have to get cancer? Why did I have to lose her like that?

And God has an answer for that - we're not going to understand His reasoning behind everything. For one, God isn't human, and his reasoning and understanding of things greatly differs from our own. And secondly, that's part of having to trust him. No, it's not pulling wool over our eyes and being stupid, it's having faith in Him and trusting His ways even when we don't know or understand. And if we do that, God adheres to his promise that we will not be disappointed. That's one of the nice things about God. He cannot break his promises. 🙂

But back to the point. I can't explain to you why God chose to destroy the Amalekites in the same way I can't explain to you why God chose to remove the one I love from my life. But I still stand by Him as my God, and despite the circumstances, my life has been made much better because of it. In the end, all things will make sense.

Pray To Jesus said:
Stupid atheist scumbag. You don't know what it means to be a Christian. You have a delusional view of the world.
Click to expand...

Whatever your personal belief is, it doesn't give you the right to resort to personal attacks and name calling. Let's act like adults here, please.
 
Ventanni said:
The extermination of the Amalekites is a well discussed, studied, and even criticized era of Jewish history. While I can't always claim to understand God's reasoning for his commandments, based on my experiences and my own story, there's probably a good reason behind it that is beyond both yours and my own understanding. This tribe did, after all, stand in the way and attack the Jewish tribes as they left Egypt, and God has made it pretty clear that those who attempt to destroy his chosen people will, in the end, be destroyed themselves. We may be able to argue his methods, but we can't argue his consistency.

I don't disrespect your belief here by the way. For the sake of having an honest, cooperative discussion where we listen to what each other has to say, let's just be honest here; a lot of people have issues with having to accept the fact that not everything that happens in life is something we'll understand. Why did God choose to exterminate the Amalekites? Why do children go hungry and suffer? Heck, I'll even pull an experience with my own life just to show you that I understand where you're coming from; why did the love of my life have to get cancer? Why did I have to lose her like that?

And God has an answer for that - we're not going to understand His reasoning behind everything. For one, God isn't human, and his reasoning and understanding of things greatly differs from our own. And secondly, that's part of having to trust him. No, it's not pulling wool over our eyes and being stupid, it's having faith in Him and trusting His ways even when we don't know or understand. And if we do that, God adheres to his promise that we will not be disappointed. That's one of the nice things about God. He cannot break his promises. 🙂

But back to the point. I can't explain to you why God chose to destroy the Amalekites in the same way I can't explain to you why God chose to remove the one I love from my life. But I still stand by Him as my God, and despite the circumstances, my life has been made much better because of it. In the end, all things will make sense.



Whatever your personal belief is, it doesn't give you the right to resort to personal attacks and name calling. Let's act like adults here, please.
Click to expand...

The bolded points are very, very good ones. :thumbsup:

...and that's the problem...that people simply don't know why X happened, and to be honest, they're making assumptions (i.e, evil God) based on the sheer lack of supporting facts. What they're doing is the reverse "god of the gaps" argument by using their own conclusions as gap fillers

We'll never have all the facts. It's all about trusting God, basically.
 
Ventanni said:
The extermination of the Amalekites is a well discussed, studied, and even criticized era of Jewish history. While I can't always claim to understand God's reasoning for his commandments, based on my experiences and my own story, there's probably a good reason behind it that is beyond both yours and my own understanding. This tribe did, after all, stand in the way and attack the Jewish tribes as they left Egypt, and God has made it pretty clear that those who attempt to destroy his chosen people will, in the end, be destroyed themselves. We may be able to argue his methods, but we can't argue his consistency.
Click to expand...
What consistency? You're simply postulating ad-hoc that there must be a rational explanation, even though you have no idea what it is.

I don't disrespect your belief here by the way. For the sake of having an honest, cooperative discussion where we listen to what each other has to say, let's just be honest here; a lot of people have issues with having to accept the fact that not everything that happens in life is something we'll understand. Why did God choose to exterminate the Amalekites? Why do children go hungry and suffer? Heck, I'll even pull an experience with my own life just to show you that I understand where you're coming from; why did the love of my life have to get cancer? Why did I have to lose her like that?

And God has an answer for that - we're not going to understand His reasoning behind everything.
Click to expand...
If you can't understand his reasoning, you don't get to call it an answer.

For one, God isn't human, and his reasoning and understanding of things greatly differs from our own.
Click to expand...
I've had plenty of people tell me that God was human -- fully human and fully God -- the "hypostatic union," they called it. I understand you may not believe that, but it is a prevalent belief in the Christian community.

And secondly, that's part of having to trust him. No, it's not pulling wool over our eyes and being stupid, it's having faith in Him and trusting His ways even when we don't know or understand. And if we do that, God adheres to his promise that we will not be disappointed. That's one of the nice things about God. He cannot break his promises. 🙂
Click to expand...
Like when he promised that he would return before his contemporary generation passed away?

But back to the point. I can't explain to you why God chose to destroy the Amalekites in the same way I can't explain to you why God chose to remove the one I love from my life. But I still stand by Him as my God, and despite the circumstances, my life has been made much better because of it. In the end, all things will make sense.
Click to expand...
I'm happy believing these things makes you feel good. I'm simply trying to evaluate the rational bases (or lack thereof, as it were) of the claims you made earlier. An answer to this question would be helpful in doing so, since it seems you ignored it:

Cerpin Taxt said:
Did God know he was going to destroy those people when he created the universe?
Click to expand...

So...?
 
Pray To Jesus said:
Stupid atheist scumbag. You don't know what it means to be a Christian. You have a delusional view of the world.
Click to expand...

I was raised in a protestant church and was a pastor.

I like how you turn the other cheek and I like how the fruits of the spirit flow from your mouth so effortlessly instead of insults and hate and anger.

Clearly, you are a model Christian.
 
Last edited:
spittledip said:
Whatever you may believe, he is the one who brought up the Bible. I am just explaining it to him.
Click to expand...

As if your "it's god, so it's okay to murder innocents" justification is any different than the Muslim justification of "it's god, so it's okay to murder innocents"?
 
This thread is a perfect example.

"With or without religion, good people do good things and bad people do bad things. In order for good people to do bad things, that takes religion."

Here we have religiotards claiming that the murder of innocent people including women and children is somehow justified for THEIR religion, but not someone else's religion. What a fucking joke, indeed.
 
Meh.. The Christian Right would do the same thing to atheists right here in the US if they could.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Back
Top