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Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
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Actually, the U.S. national anthem does refer to God:



<< Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?


On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: &quot;In God is our trust.&quot;
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
>>




Not that this solves the debate. The national anthem has nothing to do with the Constitution. I am a Christian, yet I don't want the government mandating any particular faith, or lack thereof.
 

Dedpuhl

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
10,370
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azazley and eug

I have seen too many shows on TV. I have never set foot in a courtroom so I wasn't sure about the swearing on the bible thing....

eug

Until Athanasius posted the whole national anthem, I didn't think there was a reference to God in it. Now I know.
HOWEVER, I didn't mention the national anthem...I was talking about the pledge of allegiance that kids were once required to say every day at school..

the original version:

I pledge allegiance
To my flag
And to the Republic for which it stands
One nation, indivisible
With libery and justice for all.


The christianed version:

I pledge allegiance
To the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the Republic, for which it stands
One nation, under God
With liberty and justice for all.


does't seem like that big of a difference....
Except for the fact that we were being forced to swear to the xian gawd. I remember people getting in-school suspension if they wouldn't conform....
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,169
1,812
126
Ooops, my bad. Well, what do I know... stupid Canadian. ;) As a kid, I always though it was &quot;Jose, can you see...&quot; :eek:

By the way, my elementary school used to make us recite the Lord's Prayer. I didn't simply because I was not brought up as a Christian and I didn't know the words anyway. However, that is no longer the case.
 

Whitedog

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 1999
3,656
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&quot;I wanted to prove to you that it can be proven.&quot;

hehehe

&quot;<< some theories based on radiation or something like that >>

Your scietific background appears to be above reproach. </sarcasm> &quot;


I appologize for having a scientific background that is &quot;below&quot; yours...

hehehe

I can clearly see here that it is &quot;most&quot; peoples intensions to raise themselves above others intelectually. I guess it gives them a false sense of security. ;)

I'm sorry, but I've fallen for what I was origianlly intended to be against. that's arguing among two sides who disagree. hehe
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
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No big whoop, it actually says in the bible not to swear on it or in gods name. You are supposed to say &quot;May my yes mean yes and my no mean no.&quot;
 

JenniZ

Member
Nov 14, 2000
188
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I just ignore people, who try to &quot;force&quot; their beliefs. Its not hard. I don't force mine on anyone, and I ignore those who try to force theirs on me.

I am not a christian, or a member of any other organized religion.
 

Napalm381

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,724
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<< I can clearly see here that it is &quot;most&quot; peoples intensions to raise themselves above others intelectually. >>

No, merely pointing out the weaknesses in your argument. You attempt to use scientific topics as examples, yet you clearly have little scientific background. In the future, stick to things you actually have knowledge about.
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
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<< In the future, stick to things you actually have knowledge about. >>



What fun would that be?
 

wviperw

Senior member
Aug 5, 2000
824
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it seems like your guys(atheists) are contradicting yourselves. One says &quot;we should find the truth and not leave other people in the dark&quot;, while another says &quot;People are trying to force their religion onto us by showing us what they think is the truth&quot; If you want to be able to share your opinion of truth, then you have to let others.

I think it's all in your viewpoint. Atheists see America getting taken over by Christians, and interpret it as them being forced. Someone else might see it as &quot;proof&quot; that there is a God since a whole nation is abiding by it. Atheists say there are loopholes in the Bible, and Christians come back with arguments againt those. Then Christians say there are loopholes in Atheism, but then Atheists come back with arguments also. It seems like it is all in how you were raised and what your view point is. Even if you were once a proclaimed &quot;christian&quot;, you changed your mind because of the way you started to look at Christianity. It would be interesting to have something like the &quot;Trueman show&quot;. Where a person is raised and isolated from the world and from everybodies ideas of religion and science. Would he believe in a God. I think so. What about the African tribes (or whatever) that live in the deepest part of the jungle and that have no interference with the outside world. They somehow have that intuition which the Transceldentalists wrote about, except for this intuition is that there is a Supreme Being that created them.

Question for you to think about:
With no god, what is the point of life? (no, it's not just to affect the world, because when your dead, having affected the world doesn't really matter)
 

Napalm381

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,724
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<< because when your dead, having affected the world doesn't really matter >>

What?! Albert Einstein's effect on the world doesn't matter? Abraham Lincoln doesn't matter? Gandhi doesn't matter? C'mon, get real. Many people's effects on the world have mattered quite a bit.
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
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If a person was cut off from everyone and was left alone, he would grow up (assuming that he survived) with no imagination. He be no more than a wild animal. Ancient man used the ideas of gods to explain the unexplainable. To give him some control over his enviroment.

It is only when we are with others that we can truley become individuals. We have a need for each other more than we have a need for god. I think if we all realized that there is no such thing as rugged individualism and that when it comes down to it we are all human and that we need each other and begin treating each other that way that any god would be happy. We need to look arround at the world before us and work with that before we look to the heavens.

 

UG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,370
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Athanasius;

<...You mixed me up with appoppin...>

Yep. I was wondering about that very thing while I was writing his name but two things disuaded me from taking the time to double-check: I could remember how to spell Apoppin, and I figured that it really didn't matter anyway because you christians look alike ;) ;) -- you two have the same icon, that is; except Whitedog, who just smells funny. ;)
 

UG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,370
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My school days' version of the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance
To the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the Republic, for which it stands
One nation, and my dog,
Indivisible,
With liberty and justice for all Christians.

Whitedog;

<...I can clearly see here that it is &quot;most&quot; peoples intensions to raise themselves above others intelectually...>

I can see clearly that here it is the intention of most people to raise themselves above others intellectually.

You mean, like that? :)

 

UG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,370
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Actually, Bobtist, I was editing that very word as you were posting. :)
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
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fuzzy logic for Christians-

The belief in god is based in faith
faith is the belief in the unknown
So, if there was ever proof in god then there would be no need for faith.
So there would be no god.

42
 

Whitedog

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 1999
3,656
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azazyel, you were going in the right direction, but you feel off track on your last line ;)

We choose to believe or not to believe based on our Faith. Without it, we wouldn't ba able to choose. When God reveals himself (if, according to your belief)... well, it goes on and I'm sure you don't want to hear the rest ;)

UG,

hehe, exactly. I should add to my sig that my grammer &quot;Is suck&quot; too. hehe :D
 

They're just poking fun. You know how sometimes you see X-mas for Christmas? Xian = Christian. They don't like to say the word, or maybe they're just lazy;). Those Athee's and their theory of Ovulation, jeez.
 

UG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,370
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When you see &quot;xians&quot;, we're tring to be politically correct. If you see &quot;+ians', we're taking aim. ;)

 

wviperw

Senior member
Aug 5, 2000
824
0
76
Napalm
I am saying that once you die, all the stuff you did on earth and the great things you did, they won't affect YOU. Because your DEAD.

jhu
The purpose of God? He created everything. God's purpose is to bring himself glory. Why even have a God you ask? Atleast to me, I have found that the universe needs a God in order it to work. (if that makes sense)

azezyel
A human in isolation, would not be the same as an animal. Humans have a few characteristics that disinguish them from animals. And, no, these aren't because humans need other humans. Animals live with other animals, and you don't see them doing the stuff humans do.
And I think that anchient man knew there was a god because they God inserted that basic intuition into them. It is called the Ontological argument (I think). Which is, since we can think up a God, then he must exist. Though this is a little weak, it still makes sense to me. But you might say that we can think up anything. Actually, everything else would of a different cattegory than God. Things such as math theorems, they can be &quot;proven&quot;, and seen in nature. But something like the idea of God? I dont think it is possible just to make it up.



Edit: oops, it was all in bold. Thats what I get for not checking it when I post. :)

 

Napalm381

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,724
0
0


<< But something like the idea of God? I dont think it is possible just to make it up. >>

So, you say that thinking up the idea of a god makes it right. What about all the other gods that have been envisioned by people of other faiths? Since they made up their gods, that must make them right too, correct?