Atheists check this site out

I'll try and answer before the day is over. Scripture addresses the issue quite passingly, and I know a few different perspectives in the Christian community exist.

To make the question a little more specific first, we're talking about those who have never heard of Jesus' saving grace. For those who have, the bible is clear: You will be judged, and a penalty must be payed for sin against God.

I'll talk with a friend (wiser than myself) and get back when I can sum it up.

 

[LadyJessica]

So I guess all those aborted fetuses are going to heaven then, huh? Thus abortion is a good thing. And infanticide. I hereby sacrifice myself to hell so that others may go to heaven.

 

[Dedpuhl]

<<<For those who have, the bible is clear: You will be judged, and a penalty must be payed for sin against God.>>>

So a 12 year old kid is supposed to defy his family, his beliefs, and his heritage just to be saved by the xian God?

WTF kind of logic is that? Why does an all knowing and all powerful &quot;god&quot; purposely make his creations just to have them proclaimed as sinners and pay a penalty....

 

What are those things compared to the ultimate truth? If you hear the truth and you believe that it's the truth, why would you put it off? &quot;Ok God, I believe you're the beginning and end of everything ever created, and that my purpose on this earth is to have a relationship with you, but... it would go against my heritage, so sorry. No can do.&quot; That logic is also in err.

God made his creations before there was sin in this world. After we joined up with Satan in direct defiance of God, he still loved us, and set up a way that our sins could be forgiven so we could still be with him. Sin cannot enter into God's kingdom, he doesn't allow it.

Also I want to say that God is above our concepts of time. God probably sees what we think of as &quot;history&quot; much differently than we do. A possibility. I don't see why God wouldn't be able to snap his fingers and *bang*, all of history on earth begins and ends. So yeah, God knows all that happens, but not because he's got the VCR remote and he FF's to see how I did on my finals (or whether you're going to worship him), but because he sees it all at once. Difficult to comprehend, but obscure points of theology I would imagine usually are...

 

[Whitedog]

I think some of you people here that are &quot;debating&quot; need to go read This Thread (A Word for all you religious thread posters... )

As quoted from a below post:

&quot;No one wins, and debating goes on for infinity because &quot;they&quot; are too stuborn to change. OH WELL &quot;

&quot;They&quot; is both (sides), not just one... Go on with your lives and stop being bothered what other people &quot;believe&quot;

 

[Athanasius]

<< Why do Christians need web sites to tell them how to defend what they believe? >>



I don't.



<< So a 12 year old kid is supposed to defy his family, his beliefs, and his heritage just to be saved by the xian God? >>



Everyone is responsible to respond to the light one has. Everyone here would probably agree that one should do what that one best understands to be the &quot;Good&quot; thing. If you are at peace and satisfied with yourself that you have consistently embraced what is good, then fine. God knows the twelve year-old's heart far better than anyone here at Anandtech. My burden is to show the Love of God manifested in the Incarnate Word. I believe that this is &quot;good.&quot; Arguing about hypotheticals only polarizes. I know what is asked of me: to love justice, to practice mercy, and to walk humbly before my God.

But I don't think that my logic and resaoning are any more circular than anyone else's on this Board. I'll even call UG, the &quot;Unnecessary God&quot; man himself, as a witness. I would be curious to get UG's personal view on my posts regarding these seemingly endless &quot;atheist&quot; versus &quot;theist&quot; threads.

Come on UG, don't let me down!

 

[Whitedog]

Let me give you all a lesson on the &quot;blief&quot; and &quot;prove it to me&quot; system if I can.

Most of you base your arguments on &quot;I need proof&quot; or &quot;You must believe&quot;... Correct?

The World is Round. Right? You Believe that? or you Know that? It's been Proven! Right? Has it though? For sake of argument, we'll say it hasn't.

Everone has seen pictures it it, it's in every science book, it seems logical, it makes perfect sense! But, what PROOF have you had?
I have to admit, I've never seen it other than from the horizon perspective, and even from the window of an Airplane it still looks pretty flat!

Now before you go calling me whacko, let me go on. Every educated person on the planet &quot;believes&quot; the world is Round, but NO ONE short of people that have flown in Outterspace can &quot;Honestly&quot; say the &quot;KNOW FOR A FACT&quot; that it is indeed round.

Still sound silly? Well, All I've ever seen were pictures of the Earth. It's pretty easy to make a picture isn't it??? Hey, I've seen pictures of GOD too??? Heard and read just about as much about him too...

OK, for those who don't get my point so far, I'll explain... There are so many people that call Christians Full of it because they believe in something that can't be proven... when in fact, there are A LOT of people that belive in a LOT of things that can't be proven either??? Things that everyone just Take for granted, not so sensitive issues.
There are MANY issues that people just assume to be true becuase that's what everyone says, or you've read it, or seem pictures...

I don't think people should question what other people &quot;believe&quot; or &quot;don't believe&quot;, just go with what you know and leave it at that.

Peace.

 

I don't have a problem with discussions like this. As long as they don't get nasty.

<<....Also, If you were born into a Jewish family, odds are you will be a practicing Jew all of your life. If you were born into a Muslim family, you would practice their religion. The point is simple. Is the Christian God supposed to be angry at a little kid that worships Buddha, Ra, Allah, Judge Judy, or the Ice cream man? Is it his fault that his family was raised that way? Is it his fault that he believes what he believes....>>

<<Can a xian please respond to this? I am very interested in knowing why your God creates people that he knows will not worship him....>>

First off, lets address &quot;odds are.&quot; I wasn't born in a Christian family, most of the Christians I know were not. I have friends born into Jewish, Muslim, Hindu families that are Christians... My father, one of the most influencial people in my life, is an atheist. People make their own decisions, just as NoGodHere decided that being a Southern Baptist didn't suit his fancy. It works both ways, each person is accountable to himself and, I believe, to God.

It is God's desire that all would come to know him, but God does not force people to love him. If he did, we would be robots, and I think we all know that's not true. He wanted something that would love him back because it loved him. An analogy could be that of a marraige. I want my wife to love me, not because I keep her chained to a post in the kitchen, but because she wants to be with me.

 

[UG]

Apoppin;

<... I would be curious to get UG's personal view on my posts regarding these seemingly endless &quot;atheist&quot; versus &quot;theist&quot; threads. Come on UG, don't let me down! ...>

Geez, everyone is demanding a recount these days.

I can say with alactrity that very few of Apoppin's posts to those seemingly endless &quot;atheist&quot; versus &quot;theist&quot; threads were submitted by absentee ballot: he is quite capable of successfully using the mechanical one -- most of the time.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< I would suggest ignoring MrPalco. I've had a few discussions about religion with intelligent logical believers who use reason to argue their points - makes for an interesting discussion even if we choose to disagree. MrPalco doesn't seem to be one of these people. >>



Here is the &quot;point&quot;...reason and logic will never by able to open the door of Wisdom....they can only be used in concert with Wisdom...not apart from Her.

 

[UG]

As to the efficacy of the somewhat frequently revisited seemingly endless &quot;atheist&quot; versus &quot;theist&quot; threads, no person should deny the positive benefits to society of unfetterd, reasoned debate on any topic, especially those that bear in important ways upon the public's business at large -- particularly its governance: the roles and activities of the institutions and representatives of governance and, in part, how together they contribute to the shaping of society and culture.

No one can argue that in this country religion, through its subscribers, plays little or no part in our governance: name an Atheist elected to public office in the history of our nation (there may have been some, but I know of none). All our Presidents have been men of 'religion'.

For this reason, if for no other, the views of Atheists must be permited to be discussed in the public square -- encouraged to be vocalized and given due and serious consideration -- if Atheists are not to be automatically 'disenfranchised' by those who would presume to know how best to represent and govern them.

So, no, anyone who says such debates are a nuisance and are unworthy of serious contemplation and frequent visitation by any and all persons so inclined to participate and positively contribute, speaks not for me and I will largely ignore their protestations as intellectually irrelevent.

As to partisan bickering, threads exclusively based on it probably make very little contribution to the public good, other than making some of their participants feel good.

 

[Whitedog]

lmao... UG, where are you from? Your English sounds like something out of a science-fiction book. Sounds like you go to an awful lot of trouble to make yourself sound intelegent.

I'm guessing the next thing from him I'll hear is a list of his degrees and a list of his posessions and income. &quot;seems I remember him boasting on this in the past&quot; hehe

 

[UG]

Whitedog;

I'm from Oregon.

As one's writing style is a work in progress, if you have particular examples of I how I might alter mine for the better I would be grateful if you would share them. Clarity and word efficiency are my principle goals. Where is my message confused by my presentation?

 

[MisterM]

<< Now before you go calling me whacko, let me go on. Every educated person on the planet &quot;believes&quot; the world is Round, but NO ONE short of people that have flown in Outterspace can &quot;Honestly&quot; say the &quot;KNOW FOR A FACT&quot; that it is indeed round. >>




I´ve seen the horizont (sp?), and watched ships dissapear &quot;behind&quot; it as they got farther away from me.

I wouldn`t be able to say I know it for a fact if it hadn`t been proven, but if I would be interested in the problem I would report my finding at my university, get some mathematicians and physicians to watch the ships dissapear, and have them calculate and proof that the earth is round, because of the way ships dissapear behind the horizon (that would be called the MisterMizon or something if I had found it first, of course ), creating proof.

 

[Whitedog]

I KNEW IT!! He works for Miosoft!!! You're the one who writes the help files for Visual Basic aren't you! hehe, j/k UG.

 

You can actually estimate curvature, radius, circumference, surface area, volume, blah blah blah, of the earth if you know the height of the ships mast, your own height from surface, and the distance between you and the ship.

Exciting, huh!

Has to be a pretty clear day to see that far, though. The surface of the earth falls away from horizontal at only 5m per 8000m.

 

[Dedpuhl]

Whitedog

<<<The World is Round. Right? You Believe that? or you Know that? It's been Proven! Right? Has it though? For sake of argument, we'll say it hasn't.>>>

I understand your logic. When man first said the earth was flat, they believed that one would fall over the &quot;edge&quot; of the earth. The last time I heard, no one ever fell off of earth. Well, it is proposed that the earth is a round shape. This can be proven through the use of trig and circles. Explain how I can start at point A (in this example, A is somewhere near/on the equator), move in a straight line ,and end up at point A.
I heard somewhere(I dont remember where) that pilots at very high altitutes can actually see a very very slight bending in the horizon.


<<<All I've ever seen were pictures of the Earth. It's pretty easy to make a picture isn't it??? Hey, I've seen pictures of GOD too??? Heard and read just about as much about him too...>>>

Looking at satellite images is one thing than comparing them to a drawing. If a satellite is a government conspiracy, then how is GPS possible. Man built satellites, had them installed with cameras, shot them into orbit, etc. As far as seeing a picture of the xian gawd goes....that is a complete contradiction. The bible says that no one can see him. So how can a picture be drawn if no one can see em?


Bobtist

<<<...He wanted something that would love him back because it loved him...>>>

An all knowing and all powerful god does not want; it gets. Otherwise, it is not an all powerful god. Besides, the xian god created man knowing exactly the outcome of each man(otherwise this contradicts the definition of God)...


On that note I would like to thank most of you on this board for not flamming anyone. I am glad we have had a chance to express our views. I don't go to message boards and stir up things and flame people (well, maybe 2 times). I don't go to churches and say &quot;you are wrong.&quot; I understand that everyone has a right to their opinion. I do, however, feel threatened by the religious right in this country. This is a country dominated by Christians. The gov't, although purposely designed to keep religion completely separated fromt the state, is bending to the religious chokehold upon America. I have chosen to take the path of scientific fact, logic, and reason.
The bible is so full of contradictions, loopholes, and misconceptions that it is easy to question it....if you are willing to open your minds and let the logic seep in...Consider the &quot;age&quot; of religion with respect to the &quot;age&quot; of man. Xianity is merely a child in the worlds mythology. The amount of xians in the world is a VERY small percentage with respect to the world population. So in xian dogma, almost the entire world is wrong and will feel the wrath of your loving god.......

 

[Whitedog]

Dedpuhl, based on what I've read from you, I can say with the upmost confidence you simply takes too many things out of context.

I simply stated &quot;The World is Round. Right? You Believe that? or you Know that? It's been Proven! Right? Has it though? For sake of argument, we'll say it hasn't.&quot;

Then you go on to try to prove it's round... hehehehe

The earth being round or flat is irrelevant to that post! OK, maybe I should have used an example that was easier to be distinguished as &quot;an example&quot; like, say, the Earth being Millions of years old. Now there we go, there's something that can't be proven with &quot;Hard Core&quot; &quot;I can see them&quot; facts... Just some theories based on radiation or something like that... Given this, how many people argue with this?
I for one don't care what they say. I don't believe the world is millions of years old. but, I can't Prove it! And I Sure don't go around trying to prove it isn't! Would that benifit me if I did?

If someone believes something, and you don't, and it isn't going to affect you one way or the other because you don't, then, WHY do you concern yourself with what the other person believes?

Of course I'm sure you'll go on a tanget trying to prove the world is millions of years old now.

 

[Athanasius]

UG:

You mixed me up with appoppin. Perhaps I benefit from the switch . . .



. . . but where does that leave appoppin?

 

[azazyel]

I am really surprised this thread has lasted this long considering half the people here should know the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything.

Also, Mr. Palco, I am just guessing but are you younger that 17?

 

[Dedpuhl]

Whitedog

<<<..you simply takes too many things out of context...Then you go on to try to prove it's round... hehehehe...>>>

I simply responded to your weak argument of &quot;proving&quot; something. I am not even the first person to &quot;try&quot; to prove it. It sure is funny the finger is pointing in my direction...


<<<...how many people argue with this? I for one don't care what they say...>>>

You would be surprised as to how many people care. But then again I don't see scientific labs set up on every corner with scientists bleating their message to the non believers...


<<<....If someone believes something, and you don't, and it isn't going to affect you one way or the other because you don't, then, WHY do you concern yourself with what the other person believes?...>>>

That is the problem. It IS a very serious problem. Slowly but surely the Xians are force-feeding the government with spoonfuls of faith and dogma. Our money is turning into Gawd's money....our school's are turning into Gawd's schools.
Why are we to swear on a freaking bible if we go to court?
Why was our currency changed to have mention of Gawd on it?
Why was the pledge of allegiance CHANGED to suit the needs of Xians?
Why are Xian's fighting so hard to have a copy of the 10 Common-Senses (commandments) placed next to a copy of the Declaration of Independence?


WHY WHY WHY WHY?? BECAUSE, they are slowly pecking away at the Constitution. The constitution makes it CLEAR that there is to be a separation of church and state. PERIOD. Our founding fathers fled religious persecution. These Political Xians that have been successful in putting a little bit of Gawd here and there know what they are doing. I am afraid when my kids grow up they will be persecuted for being Atheists. If they chose to accept the Xian dogma, then they will be persecuted based on my beliefs. It is very scary to look down the road.


&quot;Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.&quot;
..............James Madison

 

[Napalm381]

<< some theories based on radiation or something like that >>

Your scietific background appears to be above reproach. </sarcasm>

 

[Eug]

<< Why are we to swear on a freaking bible if we go to court? >>

My understanding was that we didn't up here in Canada, and you don't have to in the US either, but I could be wrong.


<< Why was our currency changed to have mention of Gawd on it? >>

Yeah, it's strange. Our money has no religious figures on it, but has the Queen of England on some of it (which makes sense since we are unfortunately a Commonwealth country).

Also, our national anthem refers to God, which is inappropriate for the current very mixed population. What I find odd is the fact that God wasn't in the Weir version, unofficially adopted in 1927, but (S)He was added later in the 1960's. Part of it though I think was because the 1927 version was a bit repetitive, and they wanted it to sound better. However, personally, I think the church and state should be wholly separate, and the adding Him/Her to the national anthem breaks the rule (although to be honest, I don't care that much). The US national anthem makes no reference to God.

 

[MisterM]

<< Dedpuhl, based on what I've read from you, I can say with the upmost confidence you simply takes too many things out of context. >>




I too did attack your argument about the earth beeing flat, and I think I did it because of the same reason as Dedphul:
I wanted to prove to you that it can be proven. I know that the earth is round, and rotates about the sun because there is scientific evidence that proves it. About the earth beeing million years old: I do not know it, but I assume it is true because the majority of scientific evidence points into that direction.



<< I don't believe the world is millions of years old. but, I can't Prove it! And I Sure don't go around trying to prove it isn't! Would that benifit me if I did? >>



If you can`t prove it, no. But if you find evidence proving that your theory could be correct, you should publish it, and if it is very good it will be accepted.
The scientists are not the one`s claiming to have answers to everything, but they are trying their best. Your argument about &quot;proof&quot; is weak IMHO, because it is religion that presumes to know all the answer without having evidence, while science admit`s that it doesn`t (have the answers). Like it or not, but we will never find proof for everything, until then we will have to live with the most plausible explanation...and science is trying to find just that, while religion just &quot;makes it up&quot; (IMHO).



<< If someone believes something, and you don't, and it isn't going to affect you one way or the other because you don't, then, WHY do you concern yourself with what the other person believes? >>



Because I want to know the truth about as much things as possible, and I believe that not trying to get my point to other people and &quot;leaving them in the dark&quot; would prevent me from that. I cannot gather all truth by myself, so I try my hardest to educate other people about what I think, so that they can help expand, or disprove, my theories. I want to hear other peoples ideas, if they concern me or not, and I want them to hear mine, so that we can exchange knowledge and ideas, and hopefully get even better one`s together.
If people would just let everyone believe what they want, keeping their knowledge to themselves and never discussing anything we would probably not be able to have this conversation over the internet right now, because progress requires exchange of knowledge IMHO.

 

[azazyel]

Eug is right, you don't have to swear on the bible in court.

Who ever said that has watched to many cartoons.