wviperw, god's purpose is to bring himself glory? sounds kinda shady to me. well, have fun worshipping an egomaniac (unless you don't of course).
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
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<<since we can think up a God, then he must exist.>>
Huh?! So by that logic anything I can think of must exist. People thought of the Homeric Gods, must they exist? I can think of Pagan Gods, must they exist? That idea does not stand up well (or at all) when confronted by logic. I think there must be something more too it that I have missed. Besides, which god is the right one? The Homeric Gods? The Pagan Gods?
Aaron Meyer
EDIT: Omitted mention of physical object that I could think of as they were clearly excluded upon re-reading the reply.
Huh?! So by that logic anything I can think of must exist. People thought of the Homeric Gods, must they exist? I can think of Pagan Gods, must they exist? That idea does not stand up well (or at all) when confronted by logic. I think there must be something more too it that I have missed. Besides, which god is the right one? The Homeric Gods? The Pagan Gods?
Aaron Meyer
EDIT: Omitted mention of physical object that I could think of as they were clearly excluded upon re-reading the reply.
azazyel
Diamond Member
- Oct 6, 2000
- 5,872
- 1
- 81
wviperw-
So the Mouth of Madness spoke to you. The delusions held by the masses are reality. So if the majority believed that I was god then god I would be.
Any athesist want to learn how to prove that a christian has broken all 10 comandments in one day?
So the Mouth of Madness spoke to you. The delusions held by the masses are reality. So if the majority believed that I was god then god I would be.
Any athesist want to learn how to prove that a christian has broken all 10 comandments in one day?
azazyel
Diamond Member
- Oct 6, 2000
- 5,872
- 1
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My pastor used to do this to us all the time (yes, I am a christian)unfortunately I can not remember the exact verse but I am sure its there.
"everytime you lessen a person in another man's eyes you kill them in gods"
If anyone can find where that is I would really appreciate it. But anyway it is not actually that important to the whole thing.
Basically if a person admits to breaking one commandment they have in turn broken all ten. Sounds silly I know but listen. If anyone knowingly breaks any of the ten commandments (all SP (self proclaimed) christians should know them) they have taken god's law into their own hands. They have put themselves above god. Therefore they have broken the first commandment (AKA the mother of them all) thall shall have no other god than me. You break that one, there is nothing left. You have abandoned your god.
I usually used the above verse to entangle gay bashers. It is fun when they realize that they have committed genocide in their gods eyes.
"everytime you lessen a person in another man's eyes you kill them in gods"
If anyone can find where that is I would really appreciate it. But anyway it is not actually that important to the whole thing.
Basically if a person admits to breaking one commandment they have in turn broken all ten. Sounds silly I know but listen. If anyone knowingly breaks any of the ten commandments (all SP (self proclaimed) christians should know them) they have taken god's law into their own hands. They have put themselves above god. Therefore they have broken the first commandment (AKA the mother of them all) thall shall have no other god than me. You break that one, there is nothing left. You have abandoned your god.
I usually used the above verse to entangle gay bashers. It is fun when they realize that they have committed genocide in their gods eyes.
I am saying that thinking up the IDEA of a God seems to suggest that there is one. I am not saying that it suggests which god of which religion is the REAL god. To decide that one must take all the evidences that are made known to him and make a decision. But in the end it is faith which makes us believe in one god over another god.
So if people can think up that Bill Gates is God, then it doesn't make it true. But it does seem (to me atleast) to indicate that there is a God, not necessarily Bill Gates. Get it?
jhu
Why is it shady to you that God's purpose is to bring glory to Himself? I am just speculating here, but don't you think that would be the purpose of an omnipotent God?
Ok guys, thanks for taking part in this discussion. None of us are just going to change what we believe because someone else argued to us about it. I know my arguments probably won't change anybody. Actions speak louder than words remember. By now, I think this discussion is about dead. Thank You
So if people can think up that Bill Gates is God, then it doesn't make it true. But it does seem (to me atleast) to indicate that there is a God, not necessarily Bill Gates. Get it?
jhu
Why is it shady to you that God's purpose is to bring glory to Himself? I am just speculating here, but don't you think that would be the purpose of an omnipotent God?
Ok guys, thanks for taking part in this discussion. None of us are just going to change what we believe because someone else argued to us about it. I know my arguments probably won't change anybody. Actions speak louder than words remember. By now, I think this discussion is about dead. Thank You
wviperw,
How do you know what god's purpose is? Is it honorable to bring yourself glory? Perhaps. Is it honorable to create sentient beings to worship you in order to make yourself feel better? It sounds like you're describing a god that has an inferiority complex.
How do you know what god's purpose is? Is it honorable to bring yourself glory? Perhaps. Is it honorable to create sentient beings to worship you in order to make yourself feel better? It sounds like you're describing a god that has an inferiority complex.
Xcannibalx: Peoples' beliefs do change. Quite frequently actually.
<<since we can think up a God, then he must exist.>>
<<<Huh?! So by that logic anything I can think of must exist. People thought of the Homeric Gods, must they exist? I can think of Pagan Gods, must they exist? That idea does not stand up well (or at all) when confronted by logic. I think there must be something more too it that I have missed. Besides, which god is the right one? The Homeric Gods? The Pagan Gods?>>>
Zemnervolt: I believe the person that made that original statement was referring to the Ontological Argument by Saint Anslem, which goes something like this:
We have a concept of God as the Greatest possible being. god is that than which nothing greater can be conceived (Greatest possible thing you can think of). To have this idea on the description of God, you are commited to his existence because God existing is greater than not existing. God is perfect and existence is part of perfection. God wouldn't be the greatest if he didn't exist.
Also, I have read your rave on Christianity and I noticed that much of it entailed the parts of the philosophical problem of evil. I also have pondered this at great length and have my own ideas. You have mail.
<<since we can think up a God, then he must exist.>>
<<<Huh?! So by that logic anything I can think of must exist. People thought of the Homeric Gods, must they exist? I can think of Pagan Gods, must they exist? That idea does not stand up well (or at all) when confronted by logic. I think there must be something more too it that I have missed. Besides, which god is the right one? The Homeric Gods? The Pagan Gods?>>>
Zemnervolt: I believe the person that made that original statement was referring to the Ontological Argument by Saint Anslem, which goes something like this:
We have a concept of God as the Greatest possible being. god is that than which nothing greater can be conceived (Greatest possible thing you can think of). To have this idea on the description of God, you are commited to his existence because God existing is greater than not existing. God is perfect and existence is part of perfection. God wouldn't be the greatest if he didn't exist.
Also, I have read your rave on Christianity and I noticed that much of it entailed the parts of the philosophical problem of evil. I also have pondered this at great length and have my own ideas. You have mail.
If an objective, sentient, Center of Reality exists (call it "God"
, it is not arrogant that such a Sentient Center would challenge other sentient beings to be centered on the Center.
Such a scenario would not be arrogance, it would be the Voice of Reason.
If reality has a Central Foundation, then refusing to center on that foundation is delusion. Structures that ignore the foundation would be doomed to collapse.
, it is not arrogant that such a Sentient Center would challenge other sentient beings to be centered on the Center.Such a scenario would not be arrogance, it would be the Voice of Reason.
If reality has a Central Foundation, then refusing to center on that foundation is delusion. Structures that ignore the foundation would be doomed to collapse.
Yes, but the problem is that this supposed first sentient created other sentients to worship it!
Lady Jessica:
Your point is valid if the First Cause created out of egotism. But is it not also the nature of Love to desire to be shared? In which case, one could posit that either Megalomaniacal Egotism or Benevolent Altruism would by nature create other sentient selves.
However, these other sentient selves would then have to choose between egotism and altruism. Yet a megolomaniacal egotist would never tolerate the existence of differing points of view if it were in the power of the egotist to prevent it.
But a benevolent altruist might tolerate the existence of divergent points of view. Perhaps even if such views were destructive to those who held them.
Hence, presupposing Benevolent Altruism as the Original Cause allows for the existence of both egotistical selfishness and benevolent altruism.
But presupposing Egotistical Selfishness as the First Cause doesn't seem to allow for the existence of benevolent altruism.
Yet I believe benevolent altruism exists, even if it is increasingly rare. I also believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the ultimate example of benevolent altruism, even if some of his more militant followers are not.
Your point is valid if the First Cause created out of egotism. But is it not also the nature of Love to desire to be shared? In which case, one could posit that either Megalomaniacal Egotism or Benevolent Altruism would by nature create other sentient selves.
However, these other sentient selves would then have to choose between egotism and altruism. Yet a megolomaniacal egotist would never tolerate the existence of differing points of view if it were in the power of the egotist to prevent it.
But a benevolent altruist might tolerate the existence of divergent points of view. Perhaps even if such views were destructive to those who held them.
Hence, presupposing Benevolent Altruism as the Original Cause allows for the existence of both egotistical selfishness and benevolent altruism.
But presupposing Egotistical Selfishness as the First Cause doesn't seem to allow for the existence of benevolent altruism.
Yet I believe benevolent altruism exists, even if it is increasingly rare. I also believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the ultimate example of benevolent altruism, even if some of his more militant followers are not.
Sure. Let me put it this way. Your parents created you. What would they want out of you? Possibly respect and reciprocation of their love. But do they want you to worship them and perform any other rituals for them?
Lady Jessica Quote:
<< Sure. Let me put it this way. Your parents created you. What would they want out of you? Possibly respect and reciprocation of their love. But do they want you to worship them and perform any other rituals for them? >>
I would frame my response on two key words: "worship" and "rituals". First let's consider worship.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "worship." I would define "worship" as "recognize them as the center of reality." Since my parents are not the center of reality, it would be unloving for them to expect that of me. Of course, many parents are abusive and try to make themselves the absolute center of their children's lives, but that is another story. But God-If-He-Exists (obviously I believe He does) is by nature the center of reality. In such a scenario, it would be in my my own best interests for His other children to try and persuade me of that truth, assuming that they did it in a compassionate and caring way.
Now let's look at "rituals":
I guess I look at it this way: it is hard to apply human standards to God. If we are going to apply human standards to God, then we have to apply them to God as He expressed Himself in human form. According to histroical Christianity, this human incarnation of God's own Word or Reason or Self-Expression occurred once and once only in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
If I look at Jesus, I see the Unseen Heart of God in human form, in a way that I can recognize. In Christ, I see a God of unconquerable benevolence. The only "rituals" Christ asks of His children are few and reasonable: identify with Him (baptism), remember Him (communion/mass), participate in and support local family reunions (church), communicate His love and mercy to those who may be interested (witness), and encourage personal growth (mentoring).
If these are simply rituals for me, I think Jesus himself would say, "Don't bother, you are only fooling yourself." But if I truly love him, then they are not "rituals" anymore than attending family get togethers in a loving family would be rituals. They are simply the forms by which I get to the eseence of what "worship" and "rituals" are all about.
<< Sure. Let me put it this way. Your parents created you. What would they want out of you? Possibly respect and reciprocation of their love. But do they want you to worship them and perform any other rituals for them? >>
I would frame my response on two key words: "worship" and "rituals". First let's consider worship.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "worship." I would define "worship" as "recognize them as the center of reality." Since my parents are not the center of reality, it would be unloving for them to expect that of me. Of course, many parents are abusive and try to make themselves the absolute center of their children's lives, but that is another story. But God-If-He-Exists (obviously I believe He does) is by nature the center of reality. In such a scenario, it would be in my my own best interests for His other children to try and persuade me of that truth, assuming that they did it in a compassionate and caring way.
Now let's look at "rituals":
I guess I look at it this way: it is hard to apply human standards to God. If we are going to apply human standards to God, then we have to apply them to God as He expressed Himself in human form. According to histroical Christianity, this human incarnation of God's own Word or Reason or Self-Expression occurred once and once only in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
If I look at Jesus, I see the Unseen Heart of God in human form, in a way that I can recognize. In Christ, I see a God of unconquerable benevolence. The only "rituals" Christ asks of His children are few and reasonable: identify with Him (baptism), remember Him (communion/mass), participate in and support local family reunions (church), communicate His love and mercy to those who may be interested (witness), and encourage personal growth (mentoring).
If these are simply rituals for me, I think Jesus himself would say, "Don't bother, you are only fooling yourself." But if I truly love him, then they are not "rituals" anymore than attending family get togethers in a loving family would be rituals. They are simply the forms by which I get to the eseence of what "worship" and "rituals" are all about.
<...God has Written his purpose down...>
People can't even read ballots. What makes your god think they'd be able to make proper sense of his writings?
Why doesn't he just talk to us like a normal person if he's so talented?
<-- (Requisite PC smiley.)
People can't even read ballots. What makes your god think they'd be able to make proper sense of his writings?
Why doesn't he just talk to us like a normal person if he's so talented?
<-- (Requisite PC smiley.)<< Why doesn't he just talk to us like a normal person if he's so talented? >>
At this Time...the Written Word is certain...and cannot be polluted by an enemy..
<....the Written Word is certain...and cannot be polluted by an enemy...>
Tell that to Palm Beach County Democrats who think the written ballot was an undemocratic conspiracy to make them look stupid.
If the Written Word is so vital, shouldn't it be as universally necessary and interchangeable as any atmospheric oxygen molecule?
A minority of people think your Written Word is as vital to us all as do you.
Why does the oxygen molecule enjoy greater popular appreciation than your version of universal necessity?
Oxygen is Truth!!
Tell that to Palm Beach County Democrats who think the written ballot was an undemocratic conspiracy to make them look stupid.
If the Written Word is so vital, shouldn't it be as universally necessary and interchangeable as any atmospheric oxygen molecule?
A minority of people think your Written Word is as vital to us all as do you.
Why does the oxygen molecule enjoy greater popular appreciation than your version of universal necessity?
Oxygen is Truth!!
95% of the worlds population believe in a higher power. People believe in what makes them feel better. Instead of dumping on something you should be opened minded enough to listen. Violence is caused by lack of understanding and knowledge, but if you do or don't believe then just listen to both sides. Is one person better than another because he thinks there is or isnt a God, not now but maybe later. But this debate is the oldest there is, and that site does neither side justice, IMHO.
theslowone;
<...Instead of dumping on something you should be opened minded enough to listen...>
An open mind that considers anything worthy and judges nothing inconsequential is as practical as a bottomless bucket.
You must be new here, eh?
<...Instead of dumping on something you should be opened minded enough to listen...>
An open mind that considers anything worthy and judges nothing inconsequential is as practical as a bottomless bucket.
You must be new here, eh?
<< Tell that to Palm Beach County Democrats who think the written ballot was an undemocratic conspiracy to make them look stupid. >>
That may be, however, as I understand it, the ballot was crafted by DEMOCRATS.
<< If the Written Word is so vital, shouldn't it be as universally necessary and interchangeable as any atmospheric oxygen molecule? >>
It is the Word, that allows the oxygen molecule to remain in position.
<< A minority of people think your Written Word is as vital to us all as do you. >>
It is Written...narrow is the way, and there are few that find it.
A minority view, is not the basis to disallow that view.
<< Why does the oxygen molecule enjoy greater popular appreciation than your version of universal necessity? >>
The Man that has not been renewed, is bound to the physical realm, and physical resources are the only power behind his existance.
The majority of Men, give the highest priority of their existance, to the physical realm, (this includes many baby Christians).
<< Oxygen is Truth!! >>
Truth was before Oxygen.
{b]MrPalco[/b];
You do mankind a great service by so diligently working to bring into proper perspective the true, personal benefit of the unfettered Word.
Your mastery of the Word does you appropriate justice.
You do mankind a great service by so diligently working to bring into proper perspective the true, personal benefit of the unfettered Word.
Your mastery of the Word does you appropriate justice.
Being open minded and not judging are two different things. You can listen to a person without being rude to their very existance. Take in what they say if you disagree that is fine but don't say your full of it.
<< You do mankind a great service by so diligently working to bring into proper perspective the true, personal benefit of the unfettered Word.
Your mastery of the Word does you appropriate justice. >>
Is that a signal that you are done with this topic?
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