AT World of Warcraft Thread (Cataclysm, Where do you play, General BS and all that)

[Aikouka]

yeah, raiding as a rogue in vanilla might taint my memories.

I can't think of any fight that didn't boil down to "do dps, don't steal agro" for a rogue, at least up through AQ40/Naxx. BWL introduced the exciting and dynamic change of having to run out of LOS for a couple seconds every minute to let debuffs wear off.

Haha that reminds me of some of the stuff we used to do. We would purposefully try to take aggro off the tank on Garr, because the fight was so ridiculously boring for us. I think one of us managed to pull once before the tank taunted it back. I guess it just didn't help that rogues were really the only melee DPS class (warriors = tank, paladins and shamans = healer), and we brought nothing to the table other than DPS.

That does remind me of how I went Assassination (got bored with Combat), and I would have tons of aggro problems on Vaelastrasz the Corrupt. Giving an Assassination rogue infinite energy (and never getting Burning Adrenaline) is just asking for trouble.

if I remember right, the rogue class call just meant that the MT had to move Nef while the rogues just stood there. haha

Sigh... you know how many times I had to watch all of my rogues die (I was rogue class leader) because the tank wouldn't move when Nefarian teleported/rooted us up front? "Wiseman... you're killing us! Move him!" He didn't really seem to care though. :\

BWD was definitely a lot more interesting than Molten Bore though. I remember how long it took us to defeat Razorgore the Untamed, and all the while we cursed the damn Horde that had Earthbind Totems. We actually used Paladins and having them drag the mobs through consecration just to keep aggro. Then we found out you could just cheese the fight by having Razorgore pull aggro and drop control of him (all aggro went to the controller). Yep... fight became a big joke after that.

I think it took us almost a month to kill him, and a lot of people wouldn't even go. The first time we killed him was with a combined raid from Group 1 and Group 2 (my group).

 

[cronos]

You've mentioned BWD a couple of times although I'm sure you meant BWL

My vanilla raids stopped after killing Razorgore (we did clear Molten Core every week for about a month or so). It was about a month from BC release and a lot of members of our 'casual' raiding guild stopped coming for raids. We did manage to clear ZG and AQ20, and one boss of AQ40, but that's it.

 

[Aikouka]

You've mentioned BWD a couple of times although I'm sure you meant BWL

Argh! Darn acronyms being so close!

 

[Iron Wolf]

I'm not so sure about the talent changes.

http://www.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#w

I'll reserve judgement until the xp comes out, but it looks like they are just basically eliminating the whole talent system completely. You get a choice of three talents at each of six levels, most of which are mods to existing skills/spells in a similar fashion to glyphs, or you get a few new crappy skills. Since it seems like they took the worst of the existing talent trees and incorporated them into the new system, hopefully it means that the existing skills will be made better. Or, maybe what they have shown us so far is just a teaser, and there will be many more choices, like every other level or so.

 

[nageov3t]

I kinda wonder why Blizzard has been screwing with the talent trees so much for the past two expansions... I can only assume that they have data that indicates that new players are confused/intimidated by the way the talent trees work.

if it were up to me, I'd say we needed more talents, not less. pre-Cat, I was really excited to see what builds the community could come up with an extra 5 talent points if they left the system unchanged going into Cataclysm.

 

[Aikouka]

I think that this is pretty much their thought process on it...

"Good players go out and read Elitist Jerks, MMO Champion or some other class dedicated website to find the best build, which is usually figured out by half a dozen people. Everyone else just chooses what they think is good, and sometimes what's good isn't necessarily apparent."

This isn't to state that people not in the first group are all bad players... they may just be your average player that isn't all about min/maxing or may just do casual raiding. So, they're really just making it so the good players no longer really have to look things up. I mean, there may just be one or two talent choices that require a slight bit of theorycrafting to find out if they provide a bit more DPS, but overall... it's just a "choose what sounds cool."

Although, I would argue that certain abilities will possibly provide far more benefit on a fight by fight level, which Blizzard is fine with. They even mentioned during a panel that people would be able to easily switch talents like they do glyphs now, and they were fine with that.

So overall... do I think this is bad? Not really. I think it's a really far departure from standard talent systems that you see almost everywhere (and even from what WoW itself used to use). But see... I don't care about that. What I ultimately care about is that I'll still be able to be a potent player.

 

[chitwood]

Majordomo. As a Rogue, I just fought the add that I was supposed to until it was time to fight Majordomo himself.

You never fight Majordomo. You offtank him, but I believe he had infinite health. The fight ended when all 8 adds died.

especially when you consider that you had to go in there to free Marshall Maxwell to do the Onyxia quest line,

Marshal Windsor, not Maxwell.

 

[nageov3t]

You never fight Majordomo. You offtank him, but I believe he had infinite health. The fight ended when all 8 adds died.

mighta been thinking of Garr... that was a retardedly boring fight.

I would auto-attack on Garr and read a book (this was before I had dual monitors, obv)

 

[rivan]

I think that this is pretty much their thought process on it...

"Good players go out and read Elitist Jerks, MMO Champion or some other class dedicated website to find the best build, which is usually figured out by half a dozen people. Everyone else just chooses what they think is good, and sometimes what's good isn't necessarily apparent."

This isn't to state that people not in the first group are all bad players... they may just be your average player that isn't all about min/maxing or may just do casual raiding. So, they're really just making it so the good players no longer really have to look things up. I mean, there may just be one or two talent choices that require a slight bit of theorycrafting to find out if they provide a bit more DPS, but overall... it's just a "choose what sounds cool."

Although, I would argue that certain abilities will possibly provide far more benefit on a fight by fight level, which Blizzard is fine with. They even mentioned during a panel that people would be able to easily switch talents like they do glyphs now, and they were fine with that.

So overall... do I think this is bad? Not really. I think it's a really far departure from standard talent systems that you see almost everywhere (and even from what WoW itself used to use). But see... I don't care about that. What I ultimately care about is that I'll still be able to be a potent player.

I tend to agree with this.

There was a time that I really enjoyed each patch coming out and the possible changes it'd being to build or rotation. I'd read up on where the test server people were, then I'd fiddle with stuff to make it fit my playstyle a little better, then I'd spend a night or two in front of the dummies, charting results.

That time has passed. Now, I read a site or two, take the build and rotation advice they give and call it good enough.

I'm absolutely fine with this change.

 

[Aikouka]

You never fight Majordomo. You offtank him, but I believe he had infinite health. The fight ended when all 8 adds died.

Haha that's right... he kinda can't go and summon Ragnaros if you kill him. :biggrin: It's been way too long, and I'd prefer to keep it that way!

Marshal Windsor, not Maxwell.

Yeah... while writing it, I was pretty sure I had the name wrong, but couldn't easily look it up. So, I just went with it. Isn't Maxwell the one at the sorry excuse for a camp?

 

[Adrenaline]

That's what happens with self-entitled kids in high school or college.

Second son phase is even easier if you keep an add alive while you work down the bigger adds. This requires people to push/pull the adds around though. We usually just kill 'em.

After that week of people leaving (DK dps, Hunter and took a Holy Paladin) and getting some attempts on Rag in here is what happened:

Following Tuesday:

Did Heroic Shannox and cleared out FL.

This Tuesday:

Did Heroic Shannox and clear out FL with one shotting Rag.

We got approached by about 5 people wanting to join when we had 12-13 people and what appeared to be a solid raiding group for clearing content on regular with a few heroic bosses. So, we take them and grab some more and their group goes 6/7 with Rag tonight.

So, we got some more people and are moving to a 25 man raiding guild. As of now, we need very little other than maybe 2-3 dps (DK with a OS for tanking would be nice, ANYONE care to transfer to Frostmane Alliance?) I was finally happy with a ten man raiding guild and now we are going to 25 man raiding, Tuesday, Sunday and Monday from 9 PM - 12 AM central time.

Also, a guild on our server had their GM supposedly tell people that some were not cutting it and they needed to find a new guild because they were benched. Keeping 19 core raiders to rotate in and out. They push 25 man heroic and I guess they were stuck. I am hoping to get some of those people and just do regulars.

But we could use:
DK dps (OS Tank), have one could use another
Druid Balance (OS Tank), have one could use another
Paladin Holy, don't have one ready for FL
Rogue, have one right now
Shaman Resto, don't have one ready for FL

Here is my armory:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmane/Psychopath/simple

If anyone is interested shoot me a tell or reply here. We start 25 man FL next week.

 

[nageov3t]

banned from the WoW forums for talking about how Aggra servers no purpose in the game other than to reenforce Thrall's heterosexuality

anyone able to recommend a mage leveling build for me (specifically, single-target/questing with the occasional random dungeon, but no PvP)? I finally got around to rolling a Goblin last night after reading all the qq on the official forums about how much better Horde storyline quests are but I feel overwhelmed looking at the talents... I don't get what nuke arcane should be using, why half the fire talents seem AoE-related, and why all the Frost talents seem to refer to "frozen" targets but I don't see any spells that would allow me to freeze other than frost nova. :\

 

[Aikouka]

So I was doing the pumpkin man on my Prot Paladin today. I was thinkin', "Oh yeah... poppa's gunna get a new ring!" I sat there seeing every ring under the sun drop! I started ranting and raving, "What in the heck!? This must be a conspiracy! Entice us to tank for others by this tanking ring and then never drop it! That way, we keep queuing... evil, but genius!!!"

Then, my self-doubt (or is it really self-hate ) sets in, so I open Atlas Loot. Sure enough, I was just guessing that there was a tanking ring. "Oh um... nevermind."

*Unequips his [Tin Foil Hat]*

 

[Wordplay]

banned from the WoW forums for talking about how Aggra servers no purpose in the game other than to reenforce Thrall's heterosexuality

anyone able to recommend a mage leveling build for me (specifically, single-target/questing with the occasional random dungeon, but no PvP)? I finally got around to rolling a Goblin last night after reading all the qq on the official forums about how much better Horde storyline quests are but I feel overwhelmed looking at the talents... I don't get what nuke arcane should be using, why half the fire talents seem AoE-related, and why all the Frost talents seem to refer to "frozen" targets but I don't see any spells that would allow me to freeze other than frost nova. :\

I use to level my mage (I haven't played Cata) when I played with a frost spec. It was the best leveling spec IMO as you wouldn't really run out of mana and your survivability was excellent. Trapping everything and slowing them down helps to AoE a decent sized group of mobs.

 

[zokudu]

banned from the WoW forums for talking about how Aggra servers no purpose in the game other than to reenforce Thrall's heterosexuality

anyone able to recommend a mage leveling build for me (specifically, single-target/questing with the occasional random dungeon, but no PvP)? I finally got around to rolling a Goblin last night after reading all the qq on the official forums about how much better Horde storyline quests are but I feel overwhelmed looking at the talents... I don't get what nuke arcane should be using, why half the fire talents seem AoE-related, and why all the Frost talents seem to refer to "frozen" targets but I don't see any spells that would allow me to freeze other than frost nova. :\

I would say level Frost. I know nothing about Fire just as an FYI. Arcane uses Arcane Blast which is not obtained until level 20. Before then if you want to level as Arcane just use Frostbolt I would say.

As Arcane you tend to just spam 2 spells, Arcane Blast to get stacks up to 4 which increases Arcane Blast damage as well as mana cost. You then use Arcane barrage to cancel stacks if you have not got an Arcane Missiles proc in which case you should use that to break stacks as it costs no mana. (As you gain gear at level 80 I hear you remove missiles but don't quote me on it). Mana doesn't really matter while leveling but Arcanes Mastery increases damage based on your mana % so saving it is a good thing.

For Frost Frozen can also be placed by Cone of Cold with a second tier talent as well at the 4th tier talent Fingers of Frost which ends up being an integral part of your rotation at higher levels. Really any talents referencing Frozen targets are referring to Fingers of Frost. in an average Frost rotation. it ends up being something like:
Ice Lance on FoF > Frost Fire Bolt on Brain Freeze Procs > Frostbolt for leveling. Its a bit more involved while raiding but you probably should go Arcane once you hit 85.

 

[Aikouka]

(As you gain gear at level 80 I hear you remove missiles but don't quote me on it).

You don't remove magic missiles. The spell is used during your conservation phase that you use between each burn phase. Basically, when Evocation is on cooldown, you try and keep your mana bar as full as possible and you do that as you described (AB until x4 -> ABarr) but you also use AM when it procs (regardless of AB stacks -- although, I think you can technically stack it more if you really wanted to).

I had to sort of learn how to play an Arcane Mage while doing the Horseman this weekend. I made sure that I'd be the noob caster with the spirit ring. (Yes, I know Boomkins and Elemental Shamans can use it fine.)

I'm considering starting tanking some trolls on my Paladin. As much as I've been playing as a Boomkin on my Druid, I might switch back to healing too. I'm such a glutton for punishment.

 

[zokudu]

You don't remove magic missiles. The spell is used during your conservation phase that you use between each burn phase. Basically, when Evocation is on cooldown, you try and keep your mana bar as full as possible and you do that as you described (AB until x4 -> ABarr) but you also use AM when it procs (regardless of AB stacks -- although, I think you can technically stack it more if you really wanted to).

I had to sort of learn how to play an Arcane Mage while doing the Horseman this weekend. I made sure that I'd be the noob caster with the spirit ring. (Yes, I know Boomkins and Elemental Shamans can use it fine.)

I'm considering starting tanking some trolls on my Paladin. As much as I've been playing as a Boomkin on my Druid, I might switch back to healing too. I'm such a glutton for punishment.

Go for tanking. If you have the gear as long as you don't push to the limit in ZA it is faceroll easy as a tank. Just know how to interrupt and you'll be good. If you need any tips I have all 4 tank classes at 85 and mostly geared.

Also for Arcane Missiles I was just assuming you wanted the 4 stack every time. I don't play a mage often. Though looking back at my guilds logs for the last weeks our mage uses tons of Missiles so thats my fault it is a 3 button rotation.

 

[Phoenix86]

anyone able to recommend a mage leveling build for me (specifically, single-target/questing with the occasional random dungeon, but no PvP)? I finally got around to rolling a Goblin last night after reading all the qq on the official forums about how much better Horde storyline quests are but I feel overwhelmed looking at the talents... I don't get what nuke arcane should be using, why half the fire talents seem AoE-related, and why all the Frost talents seem to refer to "frozen" targets but I don't see any spells that would allow me to freeze other than frost nova. :\

Frost from initial level until you get mage armor at lvl 68, then go arcane. Something like http://www.wowhead.com/talent#oZZffbhsIsz

Get Enduring Winter asap, avoid ice flows unless you need it to progress to a new tier in the tree, don't get brain freeze until you have frostfire orb.

As far as frozen, you have imp CoC, pet freeze, and frost nova. Also take note of the fingers of frost talent and imp freeze.

With regards to AB, 4xAB->AM was the wrath rotation. In Cata you spam AB as much as your mana allows. This varies by gear level since your regen from mage armor is based on your total mana pool. ABxY->AM where Y keeps you at a mana neutral rotation depending on procs, that's basically the conserve phase. The burn phase is ABx3, pom+AB, pop trinket/mana gem/AP->spam AB until you are at the point where evocate brings you to full mana->Evocate, again basically... There's a great addon called magemanabar which will help with this.

 

[Aikouka]

Go for tanking. If you have the gear as long as you don't push to the limit in ZA it is faceroll easy as a tank. Just know how to interrupt and you'll be good. If you need any tips I have all 4 tank classes at 85 and mostly geared.

My guy is definitely geared from the point that the only things heroics could possibly provide are Justice Points that could maybe get me an epic or two that I don't already have. I already have 2 pieces of T11 and a few other tanking epics. Everything else is pretty much an ilevel 346 blue. I've got 151k HP, 49.22% block, 13.35% dodge and 13.43% parry.

Also for Arcane Missiles I was just assuming you wanted the 4 stack every time. I don't play a mage often. Though looking back at my guilds logs for the last weeks our mage uses tons of Missiles so thats my fault it is a 3 button rotation.

I think it used to be that way in Wrath, but the whole "conservation phase" is all about keeping near 100% mana since I believe that's how their mastery works (more mana = more damage bonus). The burn phase involves spamming the crap out of AB until ~35% mana, which using Evocation will bring you back to 100%.

 

[zokudu]

I think it used to be that way in Wrath, but the whole "conservation phase" is all about keeping near 100% mana since I believe that's how their mastery works (more mana = more damage bonus). The burn phase involves spamming the crap out of AB until ~35% mana, which using Evocation will bring you back to 100%.

This is basically on a 2 minute cycle then due to Arcanes Evocate CD? I.E.Burn to 35% using Arcane Blast Evocate, AB till 4 stacks or a missile proc, till Evocate is about to finish CDing and then blow your mana down to 35% again? Wow that sounds awful. Glad I don't play mage.

I'm messing with healing a lot recently. I am leveling 3 healers, A resto shaman holy paladin and priest. I think Priest is the most capable. Shaman is weird theres a huge reliance on the baseline 3 heals compared to my priest where I can go whole dungeons and not cast any of the Big 3 heals. Paladin uses a lot of Holy Light while leveling but the interaction with beacon is interesting enough for me.

Once the Priest is done I might mess with a cloth caster. I'm thinking warlock because messing with Shadow at times is fun on the Priest. It is a similar playstyle right? I think I like how Destro looks for locks but at that point I may as well be leveling a Mage I guess.

 

[Aikouka]

This is basically on a 2 minute cycle then due to Arcanes Evocate CD? I.E.Burn to 35% using Arcane Blast Evocate, AB till 4 stacks or a missile proc, till Evocate is about to finish CDing and then blow your mana down to 35% again? Wow that sounds awful. Glad I don't play mage.

Pretty much. It's actually not too bad and sometimes you may want to save your burn phase for a specific point in a fight (such as Alysrazor phase 3) rather than just blowing it all willy-nilly. Arcane Mages have almost always been the most boring spec/class to play in the game though. They've always had such a small set of abilities to use or rather... that are useful to use. Arcane Missiles procs for me so damn much that I only ever used Arcane Barrage when I wanted an instant cast, direct damage spell. I would usually end up using AM by 3x AB (it would usually proc right after the 2nd was cast, but I would already be casting #3 before it flashed on the screen).

I'm messing with healing a lot recently. I am leveling 3 healers, A resto shaman holy paladin and priest. I think Priest is the most capable. Shaman is weird theres a huge reliance on the baseline 3 heals compared to my priest where I can go whole dungeons and not cast any of the Big 3 heals. Paladin uses a lot of Holy Light while leveling but the interaction with beacon is interesting enough for me.

Resto Shamans heal through a lot of different types of tools and you usually never just use one. Earth Shield is kind of like an "assist" since it's a reactive heal. Riptide is a pretty cheap direct + HoT that also makes your slower heals much more attractive (as it provides a speed boost for the next 3). There are two different AoE heals: Chain Heal, Healing Rain. You'll probably end up using Chain Heal a lot more in small dungeon groups and Healing Rain more in larger groups.

I don't really have any experience with Holy Paladins, and I haven't done much with my Priest healing-wise in a long time.

Once the Priest is done I might mess with a cloth caster. I'm thinking warlock because messing with Shadow at times is fun on the Priest. It is a similar playstyle right? I think I like how Destro looks for locks but at that point I may as well be leveling a Mage I guess.

I would guess that the only Warlock spec that is similar to a Shadow Priest would be Affliction. Demonology mostly only involves putting Corruption back up as Hand of Gul'dan refreshes Immolate for you. I'm actually considering going to Affliction on my Warlock.

 

[abaez]

I dunno why there is so much hate for vanilla wow raiding. I will *never* forget the first time I saw Ragnaros pop up from the lava. Vent was dead silent while he did his spiel and then when he bitchslapped Majordomo (a guy that had just took us like weeks to kill), we were all thinking holy god this guy is going to rock the shit out of us. I remember making intellect potions and having 10 mana potions thinking it was hardcore back then because no one really used pots like that.

Then the clusterfuck that was BWL on launch day (and the masses of bodies at the orb you had to click on), but once you were in the fights were pretty damn good. Being a healer standing on one of the platforms for Razorgore with 4 tanks all running around kiting like 6 mobs each and tossing hots and minor heals out like crazy thinking that there is no way we'd ever beat this.

Then when you hit Vael and the one hour timer (two?).. I have never seen a faster wipe recovery. Everyone was dead quiet running back and 40 people literally buffed everyone in less than 30 seconds. Killing that guy with like 5 people up was such a rush (and relief after 2 weeks of wiping). The rest of the instance was just ok until Nef.. oh man. When he came down with his voice and that shadow fire breath or whatever covering the entire floor. Just totally badass.

 

[zokudu]

I dunno why there is so much hate for vanilla wow raiding. I will *never* forget the first time I saw Ragnaros pop up from the lava. Vent was dead silent while he did his spiel and then when he bitchslapped Majordomo (a guy that had just took us like weeks to kill), we were all thinking holy god this guy is going to rock the shit out of us. I remember making intellect potions and having 10 mana potions thinking it was hardcore back then because no one really used pots like that.

Then the clusterfuck that was BWL on launch day (and the masses of bodies at the orb you had to click on), but once you were in the fights were pretty damn good. Being a healer standing on one of the platforms for Razorgore with 4 tanks all running around kiting like 6 mobs each and tossing hots and minor heals out like crazy thinking that there is no way we'd ever beat this.

Then when you hit Vael and the one hour timer (two?).. I have never seen a faster wipe recovery. Everyone was dead quiet running back and 40 people literally buffed everyone in less than 30 seconds. Killing that guy with like 5 people up was such a rush (and relief after 2 weeks of wiping). The rest of the instance was just ok until Nef.. oh man. When he came down with his voice and that shadow fire breath or whatever covering the entire floor. Just totally badass.

But it was "hard" and exciting because it was new not because it was hard or exciting. Did you ever play EQ? EQ was doing what WoW was doing before WoW even existed. The mechanics and bosses only seemed epic and tough because WoW brought in a new MMO demographic at the time.

Looking back the fights were simplistic in nature and the most difficult part was fielding 40 people to waste weeks doing it. You only really needed a quality tank and a few decent healers and you could do almost everything in those instances. You could fill the raid with 25 mouth breathing apes and still get through.

Thats like saying the ZA/ZG heroics were hard the first week because no one had done them. they aren't really hard but that first week was a clusterfuck more than anything.

Even now a new boss on heroic can take weeks, is more involved and requires a lot more skill from your average player than anything in vanilla. Games evolve and people with fond memories of vanilla who wish that style of play would return either didn't play it or are flat out masochists.

 

[abaez]

I'm not saying that style of play should come back, but the fact that you even say that all you needed was a bag of rocks to get passed things is not really the right frame of mind. I'm sure the heroics today are much more complicated than back then. I know EQ did alot of it first, but compared to WoW that was really niche. (What % of vanilla WoW players did any sort of hardcore raiding in EQ? 500 maybe?)

You have to think about it at that particular point in time in MMO raiding history, when fully potting up was like the hardest of the hardcore. When guilds would zone into MC and wipe to the first two fire giants at the entrance. When guilds still had the "keep strats secret" mindset from EQ. When going into BWL and having to kite 40+ mobs on the first fight, or guilds (yes, all guilds in the game) spending two weeks figuring out how to get passed phase 1 of the nef fight, I find the contempt and calls of early WoW raiding ezmode a bit specious.

 

[Rebel_L]

But it was "hard" and exciting because it was new not because it was hard or exciting. Did you ever play EQ? EQ was doing what WoW was doing before WoW even existed. The mechanics and bosses only seemed epic and tough because WoW brought in a new MMO demographic at the time.

Looking back the fights were simplistic in nature and the most difficult part was fielding 40 people to waste weeks doing it. You only really needed a quality tank and a few decent healers and you could do almost everything in those instances. You could fill the raid with 25 mouth breathing apes and still get through.

Thats like saying the ZA/ZG heroics were hard the first week because no one had done them. they aren't really hard but that first week was a clusterfuck more than anything.

Even now a new boss on heroic can take weeks, is more involved and requires a lot more skill from your average player than anything in vanilla. Games evolve and people with fond memories of vanilla who wish that style of play would return either didn't play it or are flat out masochists.

Im curious since I have not raided in wow not for quite some time, but what exactly has gotten so hard or new in newer raiding events? Last I did any raiding was in wrath and the mechanics were still all the same as in vanilla just with different window dressing to keep it interesting. Did they give bosses real AI now and have them learn and adapt to group tactics or is it still a nice long script where every player has to learn their dance steps so the performance goes well.

The only real difference I have ever noticed with going towards smaller groups is that its more of a burden to take along anyone who is undergeared or does not seem to know his class well since every person now represents a greater percentage of the groups total output. The fights may be more tightly tuned now but what else would you expect with the gear discrepancies being so small now compared to what they were a long time ago.