At the dealership. Buying my first bike!

[Throckmorton]

*sigh*

I fucked up. I can't back out of the deal because I already signed papers (despite not even getting a test ride in). The dealership is far away and I thought for sure that with a $3K list price I'd be able to get an OTD price of $4K. When I got there the extra $600 handling fee got me, pushing the OTD price to $4700, and I was on the spot - had just driven an hour and a half to get there, felt like I'd be wasting all this time if I didn't sign anything, and, well, I signed. And now I'll be picking up the bike later today for a price that I don't like (a cool sounding guy is selling his 2009 Ninja with 3.5K miles for $3500 and I can't buy that now).

Dammit dammit dammit. After buying my first new car, the Honda Fit, and falling for the finance department's pressure for added services I figured I wouldn't make the same mistake on this bike, which I didn't - I didn't buy any added services - but I still came out with a bad deal because I didn't know about the full range of added fees beforehand and caved into the feeling of not wanting to turn a 3 hour roundtrip drive into a total waste.

I don't get it. You signed the papers so you wouldn't waste the trip... then you went home without a bike. So you just gave them all your money and let them keep the Ninja?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Z, you conveniently left out 2 groups of people that may recommend a 600.

1) The people that bought a smaller bike and didn't have fun on it because it wasn't what they hoped for. They ended up taking a loss, and buying a bigger bike.

2) The people that started out on a super sport and had a great experience with them.

You can ignore them all you want, but they are there.

I bought my 650r and in a year moved on to a 600. I don't have much street experience at all, about 6,500 miles between the two bikes, with no more than 100 miles on any other street bike I've ridden combined. Haven't dropped the bike, no accidents either. Only close calls I have had were other drivers on the road not seeing me.

Some people aren't mature enough to do that. Some people are.

One of my friends that rides a CBR1000. He suggested that I start street on a 600. If I would have listened to him I would have a couple more grand in my pocket than I do right now.

I got the 650 because it's not as fast and I don't regret it, but I would have been just fine if I had started with the 600 to begin with.

He probably ignored them because the fact that some people have started out on 600cc bikes is completely irrelevant.

I clipped this from a link ZV posted the other day in another thread on beginner motorcycles as I think it is relevant to this discussion:

The purpose of a first ride more than any other is to get the risk of riding for the first year or two as low as possible. You want your margin of forgiveness in the bike to be as wide as possible. A 600cc sportbike gives you very little of that.

Yes, a new rider can start on a 600cc sportbike. But it is NOT RECOMMENDED! The reason this line of reasoning pops up so often is because everyone feels they are the exception rather than just another new rider. It makes sense. It's hard to think of oneself as just another face in the crowd. As a rider, I know I am just another average rider. Although I have track aspirations, I have no doubt as to where my skill level is and it is definitely not in (or ever was) in the "start on a 600cc exceptional group".

In the end, to deal with this line of reasoning is going to involve the new rider, not the one giving the advice. No one can stop that person from going out and buying a 600cc sportbike as a first ride. And maybe they will succeed and crow about all the bad advice they received on starting small. Great! They were the exception.

What you don't hear about are the non-exceptional people. Very, very few new riders who start on 600s come back to talk about their experiences if they aren't in the "I've had no problems." group. On the forums recently, there have been a couple folks who admitted they got 600cc sportbikes to start on and indicated that it had been a less-than-ideal choice. This type of honesty is refreshing and it is very, very rare. I am grateful these riders stepped up.

 

[StageLeft]

I don't get it. You signed the papers so you wouldn't waste the trip... then you went home without a bike. So you just gave them all your money and let them keep the Ninja?

Also, he signs papers when he's there and then a DAY LATER actually figures out what he's paying? Nothing adds up with fuzzybabytroll at all, not in this thread and not in others.

 

[angry hampster]

FBB? You realize they show you *exactly* what you're paying several times before you sign papers, right? The dealer is required by law to do so. Who cares about a 3hr trip? Is $20 in gas and a few hours of your time worth $2500?

 

[Saga]

Bottom line is you shouldn't get a new 250R anyway because they really haven't changed much in the last 22 years. Get one from the 90s for $1000 and call it good. You're going to drop it and ruin it anyway. Might as well do it on something that you don't owe money on.

Owning a 2007 or later that looks modern and not like some shit from the 70's with squared off rear seats, retro square front lights, and practically no aerodynamics is a pretty good reason to buy a newer Ninja. With that said, yes, you're playing for the looks. But that's also most of the reason to buy a crotch rocket in the first place, otherwise he'd be learning on some POS nighthawk if he didn't care. Analyze the situation before making pointless recommendations based on your own personal old-man tastes, please.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Owning a 2007 or later that looks modern and not like some shit from the 70's with squared off rear seats, retro square front lights, and practically no aerodynamics is a pretty good reason to buy a newer Ninja. With that said, yes, you're playing for the looks. But that's also most of the reason to buy a crotch rocket in the first place, otherwise he'd be learning on some POS nighthawk if he didn't care. Analyze the situation before making pointless recommendations based on your own personal old-man tastes, please.

2008+ Ninja 250R

2006 Ninja 250 (2007 looks the same-just with different colors)

 

[Saga]

The majority of people who start on a 600 and come back with tales of how great it was are doing so because they won't admit that they'd be better riders if they'd started out on something smaller.

Pretty sure I've never in my entire life heard someone suggest anything of the sort, and I organize poker runs with hundreds of guys locally.

Personally, the only thing in particular I remember about learning on a super-sport is that it gave me a VERY high degree of respect for the machine and taught me not to try anything stupid because I was sort of afraid of it. And my experience was on a fucking Hayabusa.

Ultimately the only thing that should genuinely be a factor in determining the size of the engine you want to learn on is recognizing if you have the self control to learn without getting too excited and going overboard. That and not being a fucking retard and knowing something called balance. Do I think everyone should start on a powerful bike? Fuck no, most people are idiots. I did fine because I didn't do stupid shit, most people would do stupid shit. Case in point most people should not start on supersports.

With that said, let a guy buy whatever the fuck he wants. It's his money.

 

[Saga]

2008+ Ninja 250R

2006 Ninja 250 (2007 looks the same-just with different colors)

And your point? Look at them both from the front and try and tell me they look anything alike. Unless you were assisting with me proving my point, in which case carry on. The 2006 and before looks VERY dated. The same faring design was used practically unchanged for some 25 years or more.

 

[angry hampster]

Owning a 2007 or later that looks modern and not like some shit from the 70's with squared off rear seats, retro square front lights, and practically no aerodynamics is a pretty good reason to buy a newer Ninja. With that said, yes, you're playing for the looks. But that's also most of the reason to buy a crotch rocket in the first place, otherwise he'd be learning on some POS nighthawk if he didn't care. Analyze the situation before making pointless recommendations based on your own personal old-man tastes, please.

My "old man tastes" have common sense in mind. You don't ride a 250 to look cool.

 

[Saga]

My "old man tastes" have common sense in mind. You don't ride a 250 to look cool.

Really? Is that why the biggest bike distributor in the Midwest claims their sales of 250 Ninja's rose by TEN TIMES for 2008 and beyond models? Seriously? The entire reason to buy one of those things now is because it actually LOOKS like it's a fast bike, but it's cheap and comfortable as well.

This isn't fucking India. We are a first world country. A motorcycle is a TOY, and 99 percent of the time is NOT a primary means of transportation. Looking cool is pretty much the entire reason for buying a 250, since it sure as hell won't out accelerate anything that isn't a 4 banger grocery getter at WOT, it is not an adrenaline machine by any means.

 

[angry hampster]

I thought being cheap was the reason to buy a 250?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Pretty sure I've never in my entire life heard someone suggest anything of the sort, and I organize poker runs with hundreds of guys locally.

So, you're agreeing with me. I said you'd never hear them say they'd have been better starting on a smaller bike because their egos won't let them admit it, and you say that you've never head them say they'd have been better starting on a smaller bike. Seems like your experience fails to contradict mine at all.

With that said, let a guy buy whatever the fuck he wants. It's his money.

I have no problem with him buying whatever he wants, but that doesn't change the fact that he asked for advice. I'm not going to suddenly change my mind and give irresponsible, idiotic advice to buy a 600 just because it looks like someone's going to ignore sane advice to start with a 250 or an old UJM instead.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Looking cool is pretty much the entire reason for buying a 250, since it sure as hell won't out accelerate anything that isn't a 4 banger grocery getter at WOT, it is not an adrenaline machine by any means.

How many cars do 0-60 in under 5.75 seconds? That's the number for the Ninja 250R. To put that in perspective, a '99 Aston Martin DB7 runs 0-60 in 5.7 seconds and an '04 RX-8 manages 5.8 seconds. Short of pretty dedicated sportscars, the 250 is going to out-accelerate almost anything on 4 wheels at speeds that matter in legal driving.

ZV

 

[Saga]

I thought being cheap was the reason to buy a 250?

Out of curiosity, did you even read what I said? Or is your question a product of alzheimers? I stated three reasons. Cheap was one of them. Here's your sign.

How many cars do 0-60 in under 5.75 seconds? That's the number for the Ninja 250R. To put that in perspective, a '99 Aston Martin DB7 runs 0-60 in 5.7 seconds and an '04 RX-8 manages 5.8 seconds. Short of pretty dedicated sportscars, the 250 is going to out-accelerate almost anything on 4 wheels at speeds that matter in legal driving.

ZV

Come on ZV. Let's please be both fair and realistic. How many RIDERS can make the 250 do 0-60 in 5.75 seconds? One in ten? One in fifty? One in a hundred? Realistically speaking, it's not logical to suggest that any relative percentage of street riders can pull off those numbers - making them just that; numbers.

 

[StageLeft]

Come on ZV. Let's please be both fair and realistic. How many RIDERS can make the 250 do 0-60 in 5.75 seconds? One in ten? One in fifty? One in a hundred? Realistically speaking, it's not logical to suggest that any relative percentage of street riders can pull off those numbers - making them just that; numbers.

To be fair very few manual drivers can match a car's 0-60 times, either

 

[Saga]

To be fair very few manual drivers can match a car's 0-60 times, either

Yes, but my analogy was directed specifically towards the typical 4 banger slushbox. IE, auto.

 

[james1701]

You know most bank loans have a 72 hour window to cancel the contract. Check your paperwork. You can cancel the loan without recourse, most states, its the law you have to be able to do this.

 

[StageLeft]

You know most bank loans have a 72 hour window to cancel the contract. Check your paperwork. You can cancel the loan without recourse, most states, its the law you have to be able to do this.

Yes, but that's for normal people. FBT exists in a world beyond your world. What we only fantasize, he does. He lives a life where nothing is beyond him. But you know what? It's all a facade. For all his charm and charisma, his wealth, his expensive toys... he's a driven, unflinching, calculating machine. He takes what he wants, when he wants... and disappears.

 

[JulesMaximus]

And your point? Look at them both from the front and try and tell me they look anything alike. Unless you were assisting with me proving my point, in which case carry on. The 2006 and before looks VERY dated. The same faring design was used practically unchanged for some 25 years or more.

Actually, I agree with you...and that was the point of my response.

The redesigned Ninja looks a hell of a lot better than the old one.

Edit-Looks are no reason to buy a bike though. Fact is the new Ninja isn't any better than the old one, it just looks more "sportbikish" so aspiring sport bike riders love it. Really, it was a great marketing move on Kawasaki's part and with Buell killing the Blast and HD killing Buell it is a huge win for Kawasaki as they're pretty much the only manufacturer of entry level motorcycles other than Suzuki with the GS500.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Come on ZV. Let's please be both fair and realistic. How many RIDERS can make the 250 do 0-60 in 5.75 seconds? One in ten? One in fifty? One in a hundred? Realistically speaking, it's not logical to suggest that any relative percentage of street riders can pull off those numbers - making them just that; numbers.

Exactly as many as routinely match the posted 0-60 times for their cars, whether automatic or manual. Most people don't brake torque their automatics to hit the magazine-posted 0-60 times; god knows I'm not out there loading up the T/C on my S70 to spool the turbo for a perfect launch.

Comparing published numbers to published numbers, the Ninja 250R is easily faster than anything that's not an out-and-out sportscar or a high-end sports-sedan. In the real world with anything resembling a half-decent rider it's still faster. You're grasping at straws now because you didn't realise that a slow bike is still on par with reasonably fast cars.

ZV

 

[angry hampster]

Out of curiosity, did you even read what I said? Or is your question a product of alzheimers? I stated three reasons. Cheap was one of them. Here's your sign.

Yeah it's just fun messing with you because you're getting so worked up.

 

[Saga]

Exactly as many as routinely match the posted 0-60 times for their cars, whether automatic or manual. Most people don't brake torque their automatics to hit the magazine-posted 0-60 times; god knows I'm not out there loading up the T/C on my S70 to spool the turbo for a perfect launch.

Comparing published numbers to published numbers, the Ninja 250R is easily faster than anything that's not an out-and-out sportscar or a high-end sports-sedan. In the real world with anything resembling a half-decent rider it's still faster. You're grasping at straws now because you didn't realise that a slow bike is still on par with reasonably fast cars.

ZV

No offense, but you're the one grasping in this situation. Go find me ten guys who ride, give them a 250. If a SINGLE one can match the time you posted, I'll personally apologize for making broad generalizations. I'd bet money not a single one could. I've been riding bikes since I was 5 and my wife owns a 08 black 250. I drove it home from the dealer (500 mile drive) and I'm pretty confident even *I* wouldn't be able to make it do a 5.7 0-60, and I can wheelie a six in any gear and fully understand how to launch a bike.

I'm sorry. But you're living in a little bit of a fantasy here, a 250 is not a fast bike. It's the dictionary definition of boring.

Yeah it's just fun messing with you because you're getting so worked up.

Nice to have you admit an intentional troll so I can take you far less seriously in the future. Sad to say I actually respected your posts at one time. If you think that was me getting worked up, I'd suggest finding better hobbies..

Actually, I agree with you...and that was the point of my response.

The redesigned Ninja looks a hell of a lot better than the old one.

Cool. Agreed. Just didn't totally understand the comparison since you get a better idea from viewing the nose on those.

 

[Greenman]

Great, now we have two squids in here.
I told you guy's that as soon we let one in more would follow. Now our property values are going to go even lower, and God save us, we might even lose a daughter to one.

 

[JulesMaximus]

No offense, but you're the one grasping in this situation. Go find me ten guys who ride, give them a 250. If a SINGLE one can match the time you posted, I'll personally apologize for making broad generalizations. I'd bet money not a single one could. I've been riding bikes since I was 5 and my wife owns a 08 black 250. I drove it home from the dealer (500 mile drive) and I'm pretty confident even *I* wouldn't be able to make it do a 5.7 0-60, and I can wheelie a six in any gear and fully understand how to launch a bike.

I'd be bored as fuck on a Ninja 250 but I still think it is the ideal bike for a new rider. I've seen far too many riders tiptoe around on 600cc sport bikes taking far too long to learn how to ride it or, more likely, just give up completely on riding because they made a bad choice on their first bike.

Honestly, I think we need a graduated licensing program for motorcycle riders in this country. You start out on a anything up to 250cc for your first year, then you can go up to 500c for the next year and then you can ride anything you want. It just boggles my mind that any idiot with zero experience on bikes whatsoever can walk into a motorcycle dealership and ride away on a brand new bike that can blow away practically any super car on the planet for less money than a 4 year old Civic.

I guess if we want to live in a world where people can just blow their brains out and blame Darwin we should let our children play with loaded guns too. Here you go kid...if you don't kill yourself then good on ya. Just make sure your mates video your death so they can gain cred from the youtube vids.

 

[Capt Caveman]

You know most bank loans have a 72 hour window to cancel the contract. Check your paperwork. You can cancel the loan without recourse, most states, its the law you have to be able to do this.

I still can't believe he would sign any paperwork without even taking it for a test ride. Why would he have even bought the bike at that moment, knowing that he'd have to come back with a friend driving him so he could drive it home?

Why sign paperwork at a price he didn't want to pay when he could have shopped around and everyone here recommended that he buy an used bike?

I wonder when he's going to start paying back his parents for the tuition they wasted sending him to school.