Asking Ryan Smith of AT if a special examination could be done?

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Fx1

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,215
5
81
You have this data? Can you please provide us with this info if you have it?


Have you only bought discrete cards after G80 came out? That would be the only explanation for that comment because there have been many times where AMD/ATI has had more expensive cards than nVidia ones...going all the way back to the 9700pro days IIRC.


Again, you only started buying discrete cards after G80? AMD/ATI has been on top more than just one year even after G80 came out.

Guess ATF got the replacement Wreckage back from RMA... :\

I had a 6000 series card that wasnt even PCI which is over 10 years ago.

I owned the fastest GPU's of nearly every generation from both ATI and Nvidia.

Pricing has gone silly on both sides but one thing has always been clear. ATI/AMD drivers are always crap. Take my friends 6990 which has taken 18 months to get drivers that extract the full performance out of the card on games that are nearly 18 months old.

My old 4870 X2 was just the same. i would play a game on max getting 40-60 FPS consistently and then 1 year later i would come back to that game and be hitting 60-80 FPS because ATI had finally gotten their act together with the CF drivers.

Now this is all well and good but i had finished that game a year ago and the performance gains are wasted. Not only that it was time to upgrade to a new GPU since the newer single GPU cards are beating my 4870 X2 hands down.

So its a lose/lose scenario. Im paying for a cutting edge CF set up only to basically get no benefit from the 2nd GPU until the game is redundant and the card is playing 2nd fiddle to better cards.

When i checked into the poor performance i found out there were no CF profiles for the AAA games that everyone wanted to play until most people had finished playing them.

At least Nvidia gets the SLI profiles out within a month to give you the benefit of the 2nd GPU as quickly as possible.

You only have to look at the specs of a 7970 and a 680 GTX. Look at the number of shaders and the clock speed and the 3GB vs 2GB of Vram and the huge memory bandwidth of the 7970 to see that something doesnt add up??

Why does the GPU with the best specs lose nearly all the time to the 680 GTX and some times to even the 670 GTX?

Because Nvidia always extracts more from its GPU via its drivers. 3 years down the road the 7990 will still be getting drivers from AMD which increases performance on games that are no longer relevant.
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,169
829
126
At least Nvidia gets the SLI profiles out within a month to give you the benefit of the 2nd GPU as quickly as possible.

Um hmm. You mean like with Dragon Age II?


Why does the GPU with the best specs lose nearly all the time to the 680 GTX and some times to even the 670 GTX?

Because Nvidia always extracts more from its GPU via its drivers.

You were saying?
perfrel_1920.gif

perfrel_2560.gif
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,085
2,281
126
I had a 6000 series card that wasnt even PCI which is over 10 years ago.

I owned the fastest GPU's of nearly every generation from both ATI and Nvidia.

Pricing has gone silly on both sides but one thing has always been clear. ATI/AMD drivers are always crap. Take my friends 6990 which has taken 18 months to get drivers that extract the full performance out of the card on games that are nearly 18 months old.

My old 4870 X2 was just the same. i would play a game on max getting 40-60 FPS consistently and then 1 year later i would come back to that game and be hitting 60-80 FPS because ATI had finally gotten their act together with the CF drivers.

Now this is all well and good but i had finished that game a year ago and the performance gains are wasted. Not only that it was time to upgrade to a new GPU since the newer single GPU cards are beating my 4870 X2 hands down.

So its a lose/lose scenario. Im paying for a cutting edge CF set up only to basically get no benefit from the 2nd GPU until the game is redundant and the card is playing 2nd fiddle to better cards.

When i checked into the poor performance i found out there were no CF profiles for the AAA games that everyone wanted to play until most people had finished playing them.

At least Nvidia gets the SLI profiles out within a month to give you the benefit of the 2nd GPU as quickly as possible.

You only have to look at the specs of a 7970 and a 680 GTX. Look at the number of shaders and the clock speed and the 3GB vs 2GB of Vram and the huge memory bandwidth of the 7970 to see that something doesnt add up??

Why does the GPU with the best specs lose nearly all the time to the 680 GTX and some times to even the 670 GTX?

Because Nvidia always extracts more from its GPU via its drivers. 3 years down the road the 7990 will still be getting drivers from AMD which increases performance on games that are no longer relevant.

Firstly, you made no attempt to refute the statements I made about historical prices and performance (in response to the incorrect statements you made), so I'm guessing you just made it up..

Secondly, you're just pulling our leg here right...you don't believe most of what you posted do you? The XFire bit I'll give you that as I have heard that most driver issues with AMD are with multi-gpu...having said that I'm sure you will find many others that are satisfied with their experience, just like you would find both sides of the coin on the nVidia side. As for single GPU, my last 3 AMD cards were a 4870, 6950, and a 7950 in single GPU configs and I never ONCE had a driver issue. Just like I had no issues with the GTX460 I had and the 8800 GT I had.

Specs of a 7970 vs 680? Irrelevant as the shaders, etc are not directly comparable. Also wow...just wow...for someone that has supposedly owned nearly every high end card from every generation, I would have thought you would know that specs aren't directly comparable.

7970 lose nearly all the time to the 680 and sometimes 670? See independent reviews and above links to show that you are wrong.

7990? There is no such thing...not officially anyway. And AMD also extracted a lot of performance from its latest drivers, and they are being debated about in several threads.

PS. Fx1, I'm sure a lot of us are waiting on the data to show what nVidia spends on driver development. Seriously, if you have that info I'm sure loads of us would like to know.

PPS. I'm guessing I got trolled...oh well...will try not to fall for it next time. :)
 
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Obsoleet

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2007
2,181
1
0
As a reader of AT, I'm honestly not interested in this. Ryan- don't waste your time.

Just one readers opinion. Thanks.
 

Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
9
81
What may be perceived as stutter at 500fps camera clip might not noticeable during actual game-play with V-sync. So you're limited to 60fps anyway if you want to game on a quality monitor with high resolution. I know that there are 120fps monitors but as long as I can't buy non-tn(IPS/xVA) 120hz with 2560 resolution they are irrelevant to me.
 

Fx1

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,215
5
81
Firstly, you made no attempt to refute the statements I made about historical prices and performance (in response to the incorrect statements you made), so I'm guessing you just made it up..

Secondly, you're just pulling our leg here right...you don't believe most of what you posted do you? The XFire bit I'll give you that as I have heard that most driver issues with AMD are with multi-gpu...having said that I'm sure you will find many others that are satisfied with their experience, just like you would find both sides of the coin on the nVidia side. As for single GPU, my last 3 AMD cards were a 4870, 6950, and a 7950 in single GPU configs and I never ONCE had a driver issue. Just like I had no issues with the GTX460 I had and the 8800 GT I had.

Specs of a 7970 vs 680? Irrelevant as the shaders, etc are not directly comparable. Also wow...just wow...for someone that has supposedly owned nearly every high end card from every generation, I would have thought you would know that specs aren't directly comparable.

7970 lose nearly all the time to the 680 and sometimes 670? See independent reviews and above links to show that you are wrong.

7990? There is no such thing...not officially anyway. And AMD also extracted a lot of performance from its latest drivers, and they are being debated about in several threads.

PS. Fx1, I'm sure a lot of us are waiting on the data to show what nVidia spends on driver development. Seriously, if you have that info I'm sure loads of us would like to know.

PPS. I'm guessing I got trolled...oh well...will try not to fall for it next time. :)

When the 680 GTX Launched it was hands down the winner and took the crown from the 7970. AMD had to come back to the market with the GHZ edition to try and claw some back. Am i right? Yes!

Now didnt AMD recently launch a driver which improved the performance in some games as much as 5% on a single card?!? YES!

Specs ARE important. If you are using a 384 bit memory interface then you would expect them have a superior performance to a card using a 256 bit interface. Likewise the 3GB vs 2GB of DDR5. How about the extra shaders? No one part of the card makes a huge difference but all together it should add up. BUT it doesnt! AMD either have an inferior Architecture or an inferior driver setup to explain why a card with significantly less specs in the 3 major areas that make up a video card can equal and on some cases completely beat the 7970. Since AMD seems to have their best days just when the card is about to killed off for a newer GPU release then id hazard a guess that its driver related.

The whole stuttering thing from many reports is another quality AMD driver issue. Quite frankly ill never buy another AMD card for CF ever again. There is no reason why you would want to put up with these issues every year.

Ill have to dig out the report that was written on Nvidia and AMD it was quite a while ago. But considering that AMD is basically bankrupt its not a stretch to see why nvidia would invest more money in driver development than AMD would.
 

Fx1

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,215
5
81
Um hmm. You mean like with Dragon Age II?




You were saying?
perfrel_1920.gif

perfrel_2560.gif

I dont use that useless website to compare anything.

Also you run 3x 7970? Lol you must be a sucker for punishment. Do you actually play games with that setup or just pose on the forums.
 

Will Robinson

Golden Member
Dec 19, 2009
1,408
0
0
I dont use that useless website to compare anything.o_O

Also you run 3x 7970? Lol you must be a sucker for punishment. Do you actually play games with that setup or just pose on the forums.
That's just plain nasty fella,thilanliyan is a respected member here and you sure as hell aren't.
Show a bit of respect.:mad:
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
What may be perceived as stutter at 500fps camera clip might not noticeable during actual game-play with V-sync. So you're limited to 60fps anyway if you want to game on a quality monitor with high resolution. I know that there are 120fps monitors but as long as I can't buy non-tn(IPS/xVA) 120hz with 2560 resolution they are irrelevant to me.

Nonsense, I don't use sync because I think input lag is worse than a bit of tearing on screen that I can ignore easily. So I am not limited to anything. With sli I easily break 100fps many times and in some games, it is consistently over 100.

As a reader of AT, I'm honestly not interested in this. Ryan- don't waste your time.

Just one readers opinion. Thanks.

This is why one opinion has no weight.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
1
0
It hasn't been just HardOCP but other web-sites and this one offered some data and subjective views:

Nvidia’s SLI technology is clearly better at minimizing frame times in this benchmark scenario. Even without its Adaptive VSync capability enabled, EVGA's GeForce GTX 690 produces a much smoother output than the Radeon HD 7990.

The higher latencies you see on AMD's card are very much noticeable during gameplay, manifesting as stuttering and skipped frames. Meanwhile, SLI appears much closer to what a single GPU working on its own achieves, though it doesn't quite get there.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7990-devil13-7970-x2,3329-8.html

What's nice about this investigation is they did offer steps to help improve the situation with a third party tool:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7990-devil13-7970-x2,3329-8.html
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
1
0
3 years down the road the 7990 will still be getting drivers from AMD which increases performance on games that are no longer relevant.


IMHO,


General increases from nVidia and AMD are great for hardware -- no matter the time-line -- not everyone is fortunate to buy the latest-and-greatest.

For example: Just Cause 2 and Chronicles of Riddick receive improved performance currently with nVidia drivers and features are added many generations back.

Not everyone is fortunate to own the latest and greatest -- worth repeating -- AMD's drivers don't suck to me!

My constructive nit-pick with AMD is building an AMD ecosystem, while trying to create improved gaming experiences for AMD Radeon current and prospective gamers. Believe with more work with developers, which they're doing is very welcomed -- but this takes time for the market to react.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,085
2,281
126
When the 680 GTX Launched it was hands down the winner and took the crown from the 7970. AMD had to come back to the market with the GHZ edition to try and claw some back. Am i right? Yes!

Now didnt AMD recently launch a driver which improved the performance in some games as much as 5% on a single card?!? YES!

Specs ARE important. If you are using a 384 bit memory interface then you would expect them have a superior performance to a card using a 256 bit interface. Likewise the 3GB vs 2GB of DDR5. How about the extra shaders? No one part of the card makes a huge difference but all together it should add up. BUT it doesnt! AMD either have an inferior Architecture or an inferior driver setup to explain why a card with significantly less specs in the 3 major areas that make up a video card can equal and on some cases completely beat the 7970. Since AMD seems to have their best days just when the card is about to killed off for a newer GPU release then id hazard a guess that its driver related.

The whole stuttering thing from many reports is another quality AMD driver issue. Quite frankly ill never buy another AMD card for CF ever again. There is no reason why you would want to put up with these issues every year.

Ill have to dig out the report that was written on Nvidia and AMD it was quite a while ago. But considering that AMD is basically bankrupt its not a stretch to see why nvidia would invest more money in driver development than AMD would.

I really would like to help you get your facts straight...and I tried...but I guess I failed.

Just the fact that you think the the architectures are somehow directly comparable (hint: they are NOT despite you thinking they are)...I think this is a losing battle for me so I won't even go there.

Good luck to you when posting...when you spread misinformation like you have in several posts in this thread, you're going to get called out.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,085
2,281
126
That's just plain nasty fella,thilanliyan is a respected member here and you sure as hell aren't.
Show a bit of respect.:mad:

That was Elfear that posted the TPU review.

And I'm probably not "respected" here lol, but I may be somewhat known :D
But thank you. :)
 

Aristotelian

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,246
11
76
I think just about the whole world knows AMD driver validation and performance is subpar and has been for ever.

You only need to understand how much money nvidia spends on driver development compared to AMD to understand why.

AMD used to be far cheaper than nvidia and people put up with sloppy drivers. Then AMD got big for its boots when they came out on top one year and their prices have rocketed but their drivers still suck.

i have owned both makers cards and consistently AMD is worse.

I have owned cards from both makers, and they are roughly consistent though certain generations were better for one side over the other. Throwing money at something does not necessarily make you better at it, and the fact that you ground your point in such a reason really undermines the conclusion of your post.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
1,476
136
When the 680 GTX Launched it was hands down the winner and took the crown from the 7970. AMD had to come back to the market with the GHZ edition to try and claw some back. Am i right? Yes!

Now didnt AMD recently launch a driver which improved the performance in some games as much as 5% on a single card?!? YES!

Specs ARE important. If you are using a 384 bit memory interface then you would expect them have a superior performance to a card using a 256 bit interface. Likewise the 3GB vs 2GB of DDR5. How about the extra shaders? No one part of the card makes a huge difference but all together it should add up. BUT it doesnt! AMD either have an inferior Architecture or an inferior driver setup to explain why a card with significantly less specs in the 3 major areas that make up a video card can equal and on some cases completely beat the 7970. Since AMD seems to have their best days just when the card is about to killed off for a newer GPU release then id hazard a guess that its driver related.

The whole stuttering thing from many reports is another quality AMD driver issue. Quite frankly ill never buy another AMD card for CF ever again. There is no reason why you would want to put up with these issues every year.

Ill have to dig out the report that was written on Nvidia and AMD it was quite a while ago. But considering that AMD is basically bankrupt its not a stretch to see why nvidia would invest more money in driver development than AMD would.

I have a HD 6950 2GB for 2 years and i have not had major driver issues. the one game which took a while before a stable driver was available was RAGE. the driver support has been good.

As for multi GPU Nvidia continues to have the edge over AMD CF because of frame metering tech and generally better SLI driver support for major titles on launch day. this is an area where AMD needs improvement.

As for the fastest card its the HD 7970 Ghz without a doubt. GTX 680 was the fastest card for 3 months from late march to late june. For the rest of this year AMD had the fastest card. With 12.7 beta and HD 7970 Ghz AMD had the fastest card. Currently the gap has widened and is significant at 1440p and higher resolutions. the 384 bit memory on the HD 7970 Ghz shows its advantage in bandwidth hungry games like Metro 2033, Crysis Warhead, Alan Wake.

Metro 2033 - 17 - 18% faster.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/2068/8/
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...12-11-never-settle-driver-performance-13.html

Currently the HD 7970 Ghz dominates the majority of the games with margins exceeding 15% in many games.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...12-11-never-settle-driver-performance-13.html

at 2560 x 1600 at extreme settings the HD 7970 Ghz was on avg 15% faster.

"From a price / performance standpoint, there are actually very few reasons to recommend the GTX 680 at this point and at higher detail settings there’s just no competition."

http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/page12.html

"Breaking down performance figures at 1920x1200, the GeForce GTX 680 was just ~1% faster than the Radeon HD 7970, while it trailed the 7970 GHz Edition by a 7% margin. This doesn’t change at 2560x1600, where the GeForce GTX 680 is 2% slower than the Radeon HD 7970 and 11% slower than the 7970 GHz Edition, making the 7970 the obvious choice."

remember thats an average. when the HD 7970 Ghz is winning it can be even upto 25 - 30% faster depending on the game.

With 12.11 beta AMD fixed their major loss this generation - BF3 performance. Currently AMD HD 7970 Ghz is anywhere between 10 - 20% faster in BF3

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/bericht-amd-catalyst-12.11-beta/9/

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/nvidia-geforce-310.33-beta/10/

1920 x 1080 4x AA
HD 7970 Ghz - 78.8 fps
GTX 680 - 65.1 fps

http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/battlefield-3-aftermath-test-gpu.html

1920 x 1080 VHQ
HD 7970 Ghz - 72 fps
GTX 680 - 65

To claim that AMD has an inferior architecture when there is so much evidence of superior performance is ridiculous. Nvidia has better multi GPU support and exclusive features like PhysX, adaptive sync. thats one of the reasons they can price their card higher even when performance is lower. also don't compare Nvidia CUDA cores with AMD stream processors. they are different architectures and cannot be compared directly. When it comes to compute performance the HD 7970 Ghz hammers the GTX 680. So from an overall architecture perspective GCN has done well.
 
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Fx1

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,215
5
81
I have a HD 6950 2GB for 2 years and i have not had major driver issues. the one game which took a while before a stable driver was available was RAGE. the driver support has been good.

As for multi GPU Nvidia continues to have the edge over AMD CF because of frame metering tech and generally better SLI driver support for major titles on launch day. this is an area where AMD needs improvement.

As for the fastest card its the HD 7970 Ghz without a doubt. GTX 680 was the fastest card for 3 months from late march to late june. For the rest of this year AMD had the fastest card. With 12.7 beta and HD 7970 Ghz AMD had the fastest card. Currently the gap has widened and is significant at 1440p and higher resolutions. the 384 bit memory on the HD 7970 Ghz shows its advantage in bandwidth hungry games like Metro 2033, Crysis Warhead, Alan Wake.

Metro 2033 - 17 - 18% faster.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/2068/8/
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...12-11-never-settle-driver-performance-13.html

Currently the HD 7970 Ghz dominates the majority of the games with margins exceeding 15% in many games.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...12-11-never-settle-driver-performance-13.html

at 2560 x 1600 at extreme settings the HD 7970 Ghz was on avg 15% faster.

"From a price / performance standpoint, there are actually very few reasons to recommend the GTX 680 at this point and at higher detail settings there’s just no competition."

http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/page12.html

"Breaking down performance figures at 1920x1200, the GeForce GTX 680 was just ~1% faster than the Radeon HD 7970, while it trailed the 7970 GHz Edition by a 7% margin. This doesn’t change at 2560x1600, where the GeForce GTX 680 is 2% slower than the Radeon HD 7970 and 11% slower than the 7970 GHz Edition, making the 7970 the obvious choice."

remember thats an average. when the HD 7970 Ghz is winning it can be even upto 25 - 30% faster depending on the game.

With 12.11 beta AMD fixed their major loss this generation - BF3 performance. Currently AMD HD 7970 Ghz is anywhere between 10 - 20% faster in BF3

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/bericht-amd-catalyst-12.11-beta/9/

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/nvidia-geforce-310.33-beta/10/

1920 x 1080 4x AA
HD 7970 Ghz - 78.8 fps
GTX 680 - 65.1 fps

http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/battlefield-3-aftermath-test-gpu.html

1920 x 1080 VHQ
HD 7970 Ghz - 72 fps
GTX 680 - 65

To claim that AMD has an inferior architecture when there is so much evidence of superior performance is ridiculous. Nvidia has better multi GPU support and exclusive features like PhysX, adaptive sync. thats one of the reasons they can price their card higher even when performance is lower. also don't compare Nvidia CUDA cores with AMD stream processors. they are different architectures and cannot be compared directly. When it comes to compute performance the HD 7970 Ghz hammers the GTX 680. So from an overall architecture perspective GCN has done well.

I havnt used a Single GPU setup since the Nvidia 7900 GTX. So dependance on drivers for me has been important ever since i bought the 4870 X2. You really start to see which company produces the better drivers when you add more than one GPU to your system.

If i was to buy a 7970 for my next GPU then i wouldnt hesitate since drivers only really make small performance difference in single GPU systems.

With multi GPU systems your totally at the mercy of the drivers. you will get between 0 and 90% or so more FPS depending on how good the current drivers are.
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,169
829
126
I dont use that useless website to compare anything.

There are plenty of other review sites out there that show the exact same thing.

Also you run 3x 7970? Lol you must be a sucker for punishment. Do you actually play games with that setup or just pose on the forums.

You know, when you joined the forums I fabricated my sig to make you like me more but it appears it was all for naught. :awe:

On a more serious note, I've been very pleased with my 7970s. So far my out of pocket cost for the three cards is $470. That's less than ONE 4GB 680. Would you pay more money for one 4GB 680 than for three 7970s?
 

Fx1

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,215
5
81
There are plenty of other review sites out there that show the exact same thing.



You know, when you joined the forums I fabricated my sig to make you like me more but it appears it was all for naught. :awe:

On a more serious note, I've been very pleased with my 7970s. So far my out of pocket cost for the three cards is $470. That's less than ONE 4GB 680. Would you pay more money for one 4GB 680 than for three 7970s?

get me 3 x 7970's for 470$ and ill consider moving to the dark side :p
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,085
2,281
126
get me 3 x 7970's for 470$ and ill consider moving to the dark side :p

Guess you don't know about bitcoin mining? You know, for nvidia's architecture being so superior, it sucks at bitcoin mining unfortunately...

2x6950s and a 7950 have been paid off now for me...and I could swing another 7950 with the profits.
 

Fx1

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,215
5
81
Guess you don't know about bitcoin mining? You know, for nvidia's architecture being so superior, it sucks at bitcoin mining unfortunately...

2x6950s and a 7950 have been paid off now for me...and I could swing another 7950 with the profits.

i just read a little bit on this this topic.

So you get paid bitcoins for lending your GPU's and obviously your electric bill?

like folding at home?
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,085
2,281
126
i just read a little bit on this this topic.

So you get paid bitcoins for lending your GPU's and obviously your electric bill?

like folding at home?

Yes. Even with electric bills most people made a profit, although that is unlikely to continue now since reward halved and difficulty has gone very high.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Exactly, which is why nobody but diehard Nvidia fanboys did a pants jizz over [H] saying how games "felt".

I have no reason to discount their views on it so *shrug*

This whole thing isn't new, long before the latest testing there was talk of different cards feeling differently during gameplay. It just blew up when someone published an article on it.