Asking Ryan Smith of AT if a special examination could be done?

Discussion in 'Video Cards and Graphics' started by Keysplayr, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. Keysplayr

    Keysplayr Elite Member

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    Hey Ryan,

    Big wars are a brewing over this Nvidia is smoother than AMD at similar framerates thingy.

    Would you be interested in doing an examination and report on this?
    So far, HardOCP and TechReport have reported on this phenomena and I'd think it wouldn't hurt if Anandtech did some digging.

    Thanks!
    Please let us know if this is a problem.
     
    #1 Keysplayr, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  2. blastingcap

    blastingcap Diamond Member

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    Nothing short of using high speed cameras aimed at computer monitors will work at capturing end-user experience in an objective manner. FRAPS records frametimes at a point in the graphics pipeline prior to the image reaching the monitor. Use multiple monitors if you're worried about that skewing results. We've been over this already. TechReport itself mentioned it:

    http://techreport.com/review/21516/inside-the-second-a-new-look-at-game-benchmarking/11

    "The slide above shows the frame production pipeline, from the game engine through to the display, and it's a useful refresher in the context of this discussion. Things begin with the game engine, which has its own internal timing and tracks a host of variables, from its internal physics simulation to graphics and user input. When a frame is ready for rendering, the graphics engine hands it off to the DirectX API. According to Petersen, it's at this point that Fraps records a timestamp for each frame. Next, DirectX translates high-level API calls and shader programs into lower-level DirectX instructions and sends those to the GPU driver. The graphics driver then compiles DirectX instructions into machine-level instructions for the GPU, and the GPU renders the frame. Finally, the completed frame is displayed onscreen."
     
    #2 blastingcap, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  3. krumme

    krumme Diamond Member

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    Hey Keys
    For a moment looking at the headline i thought you would ask them not to test nv the same time as amd. But i can see you found the exception. Good digging.
     
  4. OVerLoRDI

    OVerLoRDI Diamond Member

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    I would definitely be interested in this. I hope someone writes up an article about it.
     
  5. Jacky60

    Jacky60 Golden Member

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    I'd be interested to see this too and have to agree that high speed video of the event is the only thing short of my eyes I will trust. Not 'ooh the blonde haired girl somehow seemed kinda sexier' sort of impression. Also vsync needs to be applied, if you're spending $800-2000 on gpu's you really should be able to use and be using vsync I now know.
     
  6. thilanliyan

    thilanliyan Diamond Member

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    I'm for this...but with a high speed camera as someone suggested. Only thing is, with a high speed camera, how do you know you are measuring the same frames on both systems since the camera is decoupled from the computer?
     
  7. HurleyBird

    HurleyBird Golden Member

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    Indeed, this would be a good test. Could you also test latency, to see what kind of lag AFR frame smoothing introduces for both companies?
     
  8. The Alias

    The Alias Senior member

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    not really v-sync introduces input lag in a major way .

    also I suggest that they bench the cards with and without radeon pro as well
     
  9. cmdrdredd

    cmdrdredd Lifer

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    I totally agree. In some games input lag is nearly unplayable to some people. I also think there should be tests using frame limiters(radeonpro) and without it. The difference could be considerable.
     
  10. Ferzerp

    Ferzerp Diamond Member

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    Why use a camera and not just monitor the signal to the monitor itself if you aren't going to trust software readings?

    (Or at least check to see if fraps is accurate, and then use that if found to be so).
     
  11. ICDP

    ICDP Senior member

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    I have yet to find a game that has input lag so bad with vsync enabled that it is unplayable. I suppose if someone games professionally then it might be a factor.

    Of course you need to add triple buffering and play around with flip queue sizes, but it was always fixable for the majority. Now that adaptive/dynamic vsync is available it doesn't have to be a problem.
     
  12. Annisman*

    Annisman* Golden Member

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    Input lag is the only reason I never use Vsync is any game, ever.

    Some people may not notice it, great, but it can be unbearable for others.
     
  13. Keysplayr

    Keysplayr Elite Member

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    No idea what you're getting at.
     
  14. HurleyBird

    HurleyBird Golden Member

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    To test latency. The longer the driver holds frames back to rearrange them in a more even manner the more more input lag is added. The default assumption is that SLI incurs more lag than CF because Nvidia puts more emphasis on reducing micro-stutter, but it could be the opposite and CF is just less efficient at smoothing out frames. By now anyone with half a brain realizes that SLI has less stutter on average, what we don't know is what trade-off -- if any -- SLI users pay for the added frame smoothing versus CF users. If SLI doesn't have more input lag, then it's flat out superior. If it does then it's just different and which one works best will come down to individual preference. We can't say anything for sure without proper testing, but until we have actual data the smart money is on SLI introducing added latency over CF.
     
    #14 HurleyBird, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  15. cmdrdredd

    cmdrdredd Lifer

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    When vsync is enabled when running adaptive vsync you have input lag. So no it's not gone or fixed. Triple buffering helps but doesn't eliminate it. There was an article right here on AT that tested exactly that. If I play BF3 with vsync on it's a totally different game to me and to be honest it sucks.

    Off topic but I think all settings should be tested. Adaptive vsync, vsync, no vsync, frame limiters etc. Determine what difference each makes if any.
     
    #15 cmdrdredd, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  16. blastingcap

    blastingcap Diamond Member

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    Partial screens are okay too, especially if you are testing w/o vsync anyway, as you can infer the exact frame time to the closest 1/1200th second (if using a 1200fps camera). A fast enough camera can simply take shots far faster than the monitor can refresh, so you can get a decent idea of the true frametime even if you don't know it exactly.

    Btw, they make cameras that can take shots at a million frames/second; granted they cost a fortune but you can probably rent them and not buy them, plus you don't even really need a million fps, even something like 1200 fps can probably do well enough... they do not need to 100% sync up to the picture drawn on the screen. Maybe even a Nikon 1 camera could do it, as they go to 1200fps in low-res mode with the latest firmware. Casio also has a high-speed camera that is affordable, the Casio EX-F1, also at 1200 fps.

    Someone said to measure the signal to the monitor which I suppose is possible, but I'm not aware of hardware than can capture that data in a way that Ryan could use. If you are, let us know.

    Edit to add: I think I misinterpreted your question; you seem to be thinking about taking one camera and filming two systems next to each other, but I thought you meant one system at a time, which I believe is how most reviewers review video cards (to make sure that all else is equal). I think it's better to do it sequentially but either way could work, in theory.
     
    #16 blastingcap, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  17. Will Robinson

    Will Robinson Golden Member

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    Oh really?...In whose mind?
    Yours?
    Perhaps its a focus group thing....
     
    #17 Will Robinson, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  18. Will Robinson

    Will Robinson Golden Member

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    They should probably look into the growing scandal about NVDA's image quality sacrifices in Far Cry 3 as well....
     
  19. lavaheadache

    lavaheadache Diamond Member

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    I've got frametimes for ya'll. 7970 Lightning, 2560x1600 ultra settings no AA.

    What is the best way to post them without making a super loooong post?



    here are the preliminary results

    2012-12-05 19:12:12 - farcry3_d3d11
    Frames: 4423 - Time: 91167ms - Avg: 48.515 - Min: 38 - Max: 69

    and a small sample of frametimes, I waited till the game was done loading and ready to be benched

    Frame, Time (ms)
    1, 0.000
    2, 19.708
    3, 41.276
    4, 63.143
    5, 84.565
    6, 106.033
    7, 127.538
    8, 149.467
    9, 171.014
    10, 192.565
    11, 213.882
    12, 235.968
    13, 257.911
    14, 279.568
    15, 300.969
    16, 322.830
    17, 344.023
    18, 365.832
    19, 388.203
    20, 409.610
    21, 431.489
    22, 452.704
    23, 474.168
    24, 496.092
    25, 517.309
    26, 538.921
    27, 560.617
    28, 582.449
    29, 603.422
    30, 625.412
    31, 646.514
    32, 668.073
    33, 689.479
    34, 711.063
    35, 732.735
    36, 754.576
    37, 776.043
    38, 798.072
    39, 818.969
    40, 843.018
    41, 861.868
    42, 883.825
    43, 905.018
    44, 926.542
    45, 947.706
    46, 969.302
    47, 989.867
    48, 1011.659
    49, 1033.039
    50, 1053.341
    51, 1075.391
    52, 1096.599
    53, 1117.756
    54, 1138.566
    55, 1160.179
    56, 1180.727
    57, 1202.329
    58, 1222.778
    59, 1245.034
    60, 1265.673
    61, 1286.865
    62, 1307.871
    63, 1329.400
    64, 1349.830
    65, 1372.211
    66, 1392.262
    67, 1414.470
    68, 1434.775
    69, 1455.693
    70, 1476.529
    71, 1497.943
    72, 1518.081
    73, 1538.942
    74, 1559.724
    75, 1581.000
    76, 1601.486
    77, 1622.026
    78, 1642.736
    79, 1663.846
    80, 1684.045
    81, 1705.802
    82, 1725.423
    83, 1747.014
    84, 1767.163
    85, 1788.602
    86, 1808.565
    87, 1830.200
    88, 1850.135
    89, 1872.024
    90, 1892.543
    91, 1914.437
    92, 1935.186
    93, 1955.942
    94, 1976.769
    95, 1998.325
    96, 2018.890
    97, 2040.277
    98, 2061.358
    99, 2082.912
    100, 2104.020
     
    #19 lavaheadache, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  20. cmdrdredd

    cmdrdredd Lifer

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    Or investigate how in their screenshots it's clear that the wood paneling has text that is washed out and nearly invisible on the AMD shot while the Nvidia shot shows it clear as day. How about that stone like arch on top of the shed, it loses detail on the AMD card.

    That's what their screenshots show. So...image quality sacrifices? I see more details presented in the image. Oh and the hand on the character is more reddish on the Nvidia shot. Is that more or less correct vs what the artist was trying to show?
     
  21. blastingcap

    blastingcap Diamond Member

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    Is that with FRAPS or with a high-speed camera? Because if it's FRAPS then that doesn't solve the problem that Techreport talked about. See post #2 of this thread.

    But to answer your question, you could dump it into Excel and make a graph if you want.

     
  22. Zanovar

    Zanovar Golden Member

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    Christ,that looks like my beer receipt from tesco haha
     
  23. Keysplayr

    Keysplayr Elite Member

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    Yeah, it's all just me Willie. I'm at war with myself. I was always a self-conflicted individual longing for a sense of smoothness to my gaming experiences. It isn't a focus group thing. It's my thing. :thumbsup:
     
    #23 Keysplayr, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  24. RampantAndroid

    RampantAndroid Diamond Member

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    That's why you'd use a 1000 FPS camera, where you should easily capture it all, but lighting is an issue at 1000 FPS.
     
  25. BD231

    BD231 Diamond Member

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    If you spen 800 to 2000 on video cards and run them on a 60hz panel you shouldnt be using a computer.
     
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