Asking Ryan Smith of AT if a special examination could be done?

[ICDP]

The whole argument of, "if you can't see it, then it's irrelevant" needs to be shot down and never come again. If you couldn't see the FPS being produced and were perfectly happy with 15FPS, then there wouldn't be much purpose to review graphics cards other than their boxes are pretty and the HSF is cool looking! The standards have been raised...if microstutter doesn't bother you, then you're not perceptive enough to see it, you're in denial, your eyes and brain aren't trained to recognize it, or you just don't care. Either way, you're out of this discussion.
*-*

More arrogant BS from someone who is telling everyone they are too stupid to notice they have stutter. Not one single person on this entire thread has stated they get 15 FPS and are happy with it. So feel free to create a strawman argument so you can knock it down with ease.

How can you assume that because I (or any other person) said they notice no stutter that we are just not noticing it. What if, shock horror, we are actually correct.

If someone tests two seperated GPUs, a GTX 680 and a HD 7970 but notices no stutter with either. Why is their opinion to be discounted? Why are the to be told they have no place in this discussion?

Have you tested both current gen AMD and Nvidia GPUs in games? Do you notice any stutter? I care not one jot about the opinion of someone who has tested neither but implies a chart has more truth to it than the honest opinion of someone who has physically tested the cards in question.

 

[3DVagabond]

My apologies. So what is the overall message you are trying to send here?

That FC3 is a buggy stuttering game. The fact that Radeon Pro can't fix it without severely limiting framerates is not a testimony to the effectiveness, or lack of, with Radeon Pro.

 

[Jaydip]

More arrogant BS from someone who is telling everyone they are too stupid to notice they have stutter. Not one single person on this entire thread has stated they get 15 FPS and are happy with it. So feel free to create a strawman argument so you can knock it down with ease.

How can you assume that because I (or any other person) said they notice no stutter that we are just not noticing it. What if, shock horror, we are actually correct.

If someone tests two seperated GPUs, a GTX 680 and a HD 7970 but notices no stutter with either. Why is their opinion to be discounted? Why are the to be told they have no place in this discussion?

Have you tested both current gen AMD and Nvidia GPUs in games? Do you notice any stutter? I care not one jot about the opinion of someone who has tested neither but implies a chart has more truth to it than the honest opinion of someone who has physically tested the cards in question.

1.Because it depends on human perception and that is why we need objective measurements.Just because you don't see it doesn't invalidate the point.

2.You mean that both TR and [H] are dishonest and we should believe some random forum posters gotcha.

 

[ICDP]

1.Because it depends on human perception and that is why we need objective measurements.Just because you don't see it doesn't invalidate the point..

At what point do we stop discounted peoples opinions on this subject? 1 person, 2, 10, 20, 1000?

There are far more people than me who have stated that in single GPU config there is no perceptable difference between Nvidia or AMD GPUs regarding stutter. I am not talking about subjective opinions of 1 or 2 user either. Scores of reviews have showed AMD to be no worse than Nvidia in single GPU config.

2.You mean that both TR and [H] are dishonest and we should believe some random forum posters gotcha.

Nice strawman. This is not just some random posters on a forum. [H], TR and many other review sites have recently published reviews showing that AMD cards have no problems with MS in single GPU config. One single review from TR shows problems in single GPU setups that include much lower FPS than normal from a 7950 and they use Windows 8. Why is this review now more valid than the scores of others that show no such issues?

I agree that MS is a factor with CF (and to a lesser extent SLI). In single GPU setups MS is much less of an issue.

 

[Jaydip]

At what point do we stop discounted peoples opinions on this subject? 1 person, 2, 10, 20, 1000?

There are far more people than me who have stated that in single GPU config there is no perceptable difference between Nvidia or AMD GPUs regarding stutter. I am not talking about subjective opinions of 1 or 2 user either. Scores of reviews have showed AMD to be no worse than Nvidia in single GPU config.



Nice strawman. This is not just some random posters on a forum. [H], TR and many other review sites have recently published reviews showing that AMD cards have no problems with MS in single GPU config. One single review from TR shows problems in single GPU setups that include much lower FPS than normal from a 7950 and they use Windows 8. Why is this review now more valid than the scores of others that show no such issues?

I agree that MS is a factor with CF (and to a lesser extent SLI). In single GPU setups MS is much less of an issue.

1.Until we find the objective analysis.If what the majority thinks would be deemed as absolute truth we would not have made so much progress in science.

2.They retested for windows 7 and the problem persists.Check TR.

 

[Keysplayr]

Nice strawman. This is not just some random posters on a forum. [H], TR and many other review sites have recently published reviews showing that AMD cards have no problems with MS in single GPU config. One single review from TR shows problems in single GPU setups that include much lower FPS than normal from a 7950 and they use Windows 8. Why is this review now more valid than the scores of others that show no such issues?

I agree that MS is a factor with CF (and to a lesser extent SLI). In single GPU setups MS is much less of an issue.

http://techreport.com/review/24022/does-the-radeon-hd-7950-stumble-in-windows-8/10

Whoopsee?

Showing these results comparable spanning TWO operating systems is very telling that it is NOT just Windows 8. I know the Windows8 argument was to be presented in order to give false hope of "it's a new operating system and they'll sort is out with newer drivers". Well, looks like they didn't bother with Windows 7 in this regard. What makes anyone think Win8 will fare any better? Thanks for the info Jaydip.

 

[BrightCandle]

Its looking pretty clear now. TechReport really gets to the heart of it. Its not Windows 8, in fact in some cases Windows 8 makes it smoother. Its AMDs card and drivers causing the problem. If Anandtech simply rerun this test it would show us that techreports rig was working.

The subjective nature of how bad the stutter becomes is a separate topic to whether its there and considerably worse than Nvidia's card. Those graphs show terrible microstutter and having got similar traces and felt the impact its not nice to play on, its not smooth.

 

[Whitestar127]

And they should absolutely do this on a game by game basis.

Yep

Some peole do see this...hence why the debat over microstutter started....some people even deny to this day.
I'm susceptible to microstutter...but because you are not...I cannot get any data...wtf?!

I think you misunderstand me. As you can see from my earlier posts I do see microstutter in some games. And I want this test to be done. I just want some human eyes on it in addition to the numbers. That's all. I'm not going to deny you any data.

 

[KCfromNC]

Its looking pretty clear now. TechReport really gets to the heart of it. Its not Windows 8, in fact in some cases Windows 8 makes it smoother. Its AMDs card and drivers causing the problem.

Or it's nV's drivers not reporting frame times accurately. Or it's a bug with how FRAPS gathers data from AMD cards. Or any number of other possible explanations. Let's not jump to conclusions.

 

[Firestorm007]

And a waste of time reading your posts showing that all you want is for this to go away. It isn't. Okay? If you do not support an investigation by not only Anandtech, but as many tech review sites as possible, then you actually have no reason to post in this thread. After all, this thread is a request for just such a thing. You could start another thread about opposing it though. Fair is fair.

hmmm...I recall Ryan saying it wasn't really worth it.. And I also remember you commenting on AMD drivers, cheating and all that jazz; when, in fact, you don't own an AMD card, right? I also remember your comments about them sprinkling fairy dust in those "never settle" drivers, because they were faster than your benefactors. So please, take your own medicine and don't post in any threads regarding AMD in the future, since you just want their advantage in whatever to go away. I don't have any problems with an investigation, but don't pretend for one second, that your motives are genuine. You have one purpose only, and you're smart enough to know that.

 

[BrightCandle]

Or it's nV's drivers not reporting frame times accurately. Or it's a bug with how FRAPS gathers data from AMD cards. Or any number of other possible explanations. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Frame times don't come from the drivers, they come from directx, fraps measures them in the same way regardless of manufacturer. It measures the time it takes for the card to flip the frame. TechReport has said before this measure lines up with their perception, I agree it mostly does but am sure there is more to it because I felt stutter even when this chart was smooth.

But doing badly in this test has always produced poor motion for me. I want a better test found that measures the full cycle but for now this is what we have and its better than fps as a proxy for perception of motion.

 

[Whitestar127]

Frame times don't come from the drivers, they come from directx fraps measures them in the same way regardless of manufacturer. It measures the time it takes for the card to flip the frame. TechReport has said before this measure lines up with their perception, I agree it mostly does but am sure there is more to it because I felt stutter even when this chart was smooth.

But doing badly in this test has always produce poor motion for me. I want a better test found that measures the full cycle but for now this is what we have and its better than fps as a proxy for perception of motion.

Just curious, do you play in 1920x1080? In what games do you notice stutter with that monster setup? Asking because I'm considering GTX670 SLI myself.

 

[bononos]

Or it's nV's drivers not reporting frame times accurately. Or it's a bug with how FRAPS gathers data from AMD cards. Or any number of other possible explanations. Let's not jump to conclusions.

The Dec11 article does say that the 660ti produces smoother gameplay as a first hand impression vs Radeon in many cases and repeated the same in the Borderlands section. He also mentioned that it raised an internal alarm at AMD when they forwarded the info. This is something big or at least very interesting. This puts Nvidia ahead (in benchmarking the newer games) as compared to the Sept article which didn't really show a big or significant difference in frame latencies btwn competing Nvidia/Radeon cards.

 

[BrightCandle]

Just curious, do you play in 1920x1080? In what games do you notice stutter with that monster setup? Asking because I'm considering GTX670 SLI myself.

I have both 2x 7970 and 2x 680. I play at either 1920x1200 or 5760x1200. I perceive stuttering on single and dual card AMD all the time. On Nvidia I get stuttering below about 45 fps when sli enabled in some games but never with sli off. I am a competitive gamer, I have won a European championship in cod, so I suspect I am more sensitive to input lag and stutter than many.

I personally need this test improved because I suffer from it. If the game is not smooth my ability to aim plummets. Its about as bad as 15 fps for playability. But also I recognise that a lot of people are happy and don't perceive a problem. For them choosing based on fps and other factors like power consumption, price and noise will all matter more than something they don't notice.

My recommendation is get AMD unless you know Microstutter is a problem for you, in which case a single nvidia card is better and maybe dual but only if your understand you will be turning it off to get games smooth sometimes.

 

[bononos]

hmmm...I recall Ryan saying it wasn't really worth it........

Have you seen the Dec11 TR article? It benchmarked some newer games and said first hand impressions does seem to confirm the frame latency measurements that the 660ti gives smoother gameplay.

 

[Keysplayr]

hmmm...I recall Ryan saying it wasn't really worth it.. And I also remember you commenting on AMD drivers, cheating and all that jazz; when, in fact, you don't own an AMD card, right? I also remember your comments about them sprinkling fairy dust in those "never settle" drivers, because they were faster than your benefactors. So please, take your own medicine and don't post in any threads regarding AMD in the future, since you just want their advantage in whatever to go away. I don't have any problems with an investigation, but don't pretend for one second, that your motives are genuine. You have one purpose only, and you're smart enough to know that.

This thread isn't exclusively Nvidia or AMD my friend. I think that you, like others here are a little to preoccupied with who I am as far as being a focus group member. Dont you realize how obvious that is? I think if you would just take a step back and look at this issue instead of who started this thread, you might be taken a bit more seriously.
My speculations, are just that. Speculations. You absolutely do not have to like them, but you must respect them.

 

[SirPauly]

2.They retested for windows 7 and the problem persists.Check TR.

I didn't know! That rules out windows 8.

 

[MrK6]

Or it's nV's drivers not reporting frame times accurately. Or it's a bug with how FRAPS gathers data from AMD cards. Or any number of other possible explanations. Let's not jump to conclusions.

I'm glad someone here understands the scientific process.

 

[Dribble]

It slightly mind boggling that many radeon owners don't seem to want these problems fixed. This thread is just a stream of constant denial in the face of mounting evidence.

What's wrong with you?

Don't you want the best gaming experience for your card possible - you'd prefer to suffer rather then admit there's a problem? What you should be is up in arms at AMD for giving you sub standard drivers - then they might just fix them!

 

[Hitman928]

http://techreport.com/review/24022/does-the-radeon-hd-7950-stumble-in-windows-8/10

Whoopsee?

Showing these results comparable spanning TWO operating systems is very telling that it is NOT just Windows 8. I know the Windows8 argument was to be presented in order to give false hope of "it's a new operating system and they'll sort is out with newer drivers". Well, looks like they didn't bother with Windows 7 in this regard. What makes anyone think Win8 will fare any better? Thanks for the info Jaydip.

Here's what I don't understand and why I wanted them to revisit the same scene with the new system:

Time spent beyond 16.7ms ("whiterun" scene)

First Review:
660Ti 132
7950 152

Follow-up:
660Ti 30
7950 259

Their conclusion of the data: "Interesting. There isn't much change from our older review"

...?

To be fair, the numbers they point at are 99th percentile, but do they really not see the massive change in 7950 latency? You have a 70% increase for time spent over 16.7ms. Also, they're percentile graph has the 7950 and 660Ti basically swapping places. They also are the only review I have found thus far (maybe there's another?) that shows a decrease in fps from 12.7 to 12.11 catalyst despite using a card with a higher boost clock?

I'm not saying we should ignore these results as obviously AMD is even looking into them, but can anyone show me any other review of a single card configuration that in any way corroborates what techreport is getting? Until then I will treat this as I always treat a single review site showing something different than everywhere else I look, an anomaly. If there is any other place showing the same results, I'd love to see it. . .

 

[96Firebird]

It slightly mind boggling that many radeon owners don't seem to want these problems fixed. This thread is just a stream of constant denial in the face of mounting evidence.

What's wrong with you?

Don't you want the best gaming experience for your card possible - you'd prefer to suffer rather then admit there's a problem? What you should be is up in arms at AMD for giving you sub standard drivers - then they might just fix them!

I agree, but a lot of AMD users claim they don't see the stutter. So if they don't see it, I can see if they don't care if it gets fixed or not. What I don't understand is, why some are so against an investigation being made. It's not like this is a busy time for video card reviews or anything. Not to downplay what the reviewers do, or how busy they may be, but this seems to be a great time to look further into the issue. News is slow around these parts lately.

 

[Keysplayr]

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/video-cards/58304-hd7950-vs-gtx660ti.html

We aren't the only ones guys. Word is pretty much widespread. Now it's all a matter of all these review sites tackling the investigation. I'm sending an email to hardware canucks editor and I'd advise all who are for this investigation, follow up the email to them. Especially if you're an actual member there.
This probably goes for any other forum you guys subscribe to, so, if you want it done, there needs to be active requests for it.

 

[thilanliyan]

They also are the only review I have found thus far (maybe there's another?) that shows a decrease in fps from 12.7 to 12.11 catalyst despite using a card with a higher boost clock?

Russiansensation and others I think have pointed out the same thing.

Is there an explanation of why the newer review shows the 7950 being slower? Different scene maybe? Different test system?

 

[ICDP]

It was good of TR to revisit this with Windows 7. It proves my theory wrong that Win 8 is the problem. Of course other questions can now be asked.

1. Why is there such a difference in frame times compared to their previous reviews. After all TR did try other earlier AMD drivers that never showed this problem previously?
2. Why is the 7950 slower in this review compared to earlier reviews?
3. Given the above. Is it possible TR have a faulty or badly configured HD 7950?
4. If 3 is not the case then why did most other review sites not see the same problems with the latest AMD drivers. Most of the games tested have been tested on other review sites as well?
5. TR clearly state they are seeing stuttering using the HD 7950. I most certainly do not notice this with my 7970 compared to my GTX 680 in the same games?

Regardless, if this is an AMD driver thing then AMD do need to figure out the problem.

 

[Hitman928]

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/video-cards/58304-hd7950-vs-gtx660ti.html

We aren't the only ones guys. Word is pretty much widespread. Now it's all a matter of all these review sites tackling the investigation. I'm sending an email to hardware canucks editor and I'd advise all who are for this investigation, follow up the email to them. Especially if you're an actual member there.
This probably goes for any other forum you guys subscribe to, so, if you want it done, there needs to be active requests for it.

You're really trying hard to make this into a big deal, aren't you? You realize that thread hasn't had a respone in about a week (besides the op updating the link)? Scouring around several other forums, the only other place I can find anyone talking about this was at techpowerup, which again, hasn't had any activity since the day it was posted, about a week ago. I think most people see it as I do, unless we get more sites that can reproduce what techreport is getting (which I would welcome them to test) then chalk it up to an outlier and move on.

With that said, I have no problem with anyone, including yourself, pushing reviewers to look into this and see if there really is a problem. However, it is getting very old to have this same thread with the same questions appearing again and again with nothing new to add. I would completely be in favor of letting this thread die until new information is obtained.

edit: Just to be transparent, these are the forums I checked . . . xtremesystems.org - nothing, hardocp.com -nothing, xbitlabs.com -nothing, techpowerup.com -week old thread, only a handful of posts, hardwarecanucks.com - week old thread with a handful of posts, ocforums.com -nothing, overclock.net -nothing . If this is becomming widespread, I'm not seeing it. Any other places people seem to think this is a big issue?