Army Bans Use of Privately Bought Armor

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: JTWill
Rememberr this great opposition did not get intense until a Presidential election came up.

Thats funny I remember the same type of people speaking out since before bush even got elected the first time, what world are you living in?

BTW, your story sounds like a typical internet wanna be chickenhawk vet, bragging, anti terrorist after vietnam, LOFL save it ok gi joe. You havent even tried to learn any of the lingo or anything, pathetic.

Originally posted by: JTWill
I was sent there because of my experience from 1982 when I taught Afghan fighters Soviet Army Operations.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"Then I knew it was time to go home when after I respawned I heard a voice TERRORISTS WIN!"

I hope a real vet kicks your ass if you ever get caught saying this crap, he would probaly shake his head in shame at you though.

 

[JTWill]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: JTWill
Rememberr this great opposition did not get intense until a Presidential election came up.

Thats funny I remember the same type of people speaking out since before bush even got elected the first time, what world are you living in?

BTW, your story sounds like a typical internet wanna be chickenhawk vet, bragging, anti terrorist after vietnam, LOFL save it ok gi joe. You havent even tried to learn any of the lingo or anything, pathetic.

Originally posted by: JTWill
I was sent there because of my experience from 1982 when I taught Afghan fighters Soviet Army Operations.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"Then I knew it was time to go home when after I respawned I heard a voice TERRORISTS WIN!"

I hope a real vet kicks your ass if you ever get caught saying this crap, he would probaly shake his head in shame at you though.

Well I do remember you...Your the guy that assasinates the charector of everyone that disagrees with you. It is you that is pathetic, when you cannot answer the posts directly you attack the poster. Get a life its been awhile since I have been on any forum.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: JTWill


Well I do remember you...Your the guy that assasinates the charector of everyone that disagrees with you. It is you that is pathetic, when you cannot answer the posts directly you attack the poster. Get a life its been awhile since I have been on any forum.

Your are a LIAR no vet comes onto a tech board and brags about being in covert CIA and special ops training of terrorists from aover 20 years ago like his is freakin rambo, get a better story becasue that one is sad, if you were part of that you would damn well know better not to talk about it and flaunt it like you are some video game star. Which is exactly where your anti-terrorism training comes from.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: JTWill


Well I do remember you...Your the guy that assasinates the charector of everyone that disagrees with you. It is you that is pathetic, when you cannot answer the posts directly you attack the poster. Get a life its been awhile since I have been on any forum.

Your are a LIAR no vet comes onto a tech board and brags about being in covert CIA and special ops training of terrorists from almost 30 years ago like his is freakin rambo, get a better story becasue that one is sad.

So do you have any links or proof that would discredit JTWill?
Or as usual are you just spouting off?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: JTWill


Well I do remember you...Your the guy that assasinates the charector of everyone that disagrees with you. It is you that is pathetic, when you cannot answer the posts directly you attack the poster. Get a life its been awhile since I have been on any forum.

Your are a LIAR no vet comes onto a tech board and brags about being in covert CIA and special ops training of terrorists from almost 30 years ago like his is freakin rambo, get a better story becasue that one is sad.

So do you have any links or proof that would discredit JTWill?
Or as usual are you just spouting off?

Yeah, he is no vet, I will bet anything on it, he doesent talk like it, he brags like hes some bigshot, and if he did take part in such a thing he sure as hell would not be tooting his horn in here.

If he was part of some super secret CIA/spec ops training he would be headed to the brig for running his mouth so casually about such a sensitive mission, and he would not be casually talking sh1t in a internet forum like it was yesterday, thats over 20 years ago, I call total BS.

 

[JTWill]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: JTWill


Well I do remember you...Your the guy that assasinates the charector of everyone that disagrees with you. It is you that is pathetic, when you cannot answer the posts directly you attack the poster. Get a life its been awhile since I have been on any forum.

Your are a LIAR no vet comes onto a tech board and brags about being in covert CIA and special ops training of terrorists from almost 30 years ago like his is freakin rambo, get a better story becasue that one is sad.

So do you have any links or proof that would discredit JTWill?
Or as usual are you just spouting off?

I trying to figure out where I said I was covert CIA? BTW I have all my formal education in electronics..... I got to be friends with several guys in distributed computing in this forum and thats how I found this place. I looking in six forums and not all of them technical. call it getting a feel for general attitudes out there. Ask that expert for me what a Malayan Sling is.

 

[Steeplerot]

.

What was your FOB in country?

 

[JTWill]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
.

What was your FOB in country?

I have a question for you that you will not find the answer for on the internet. What is the nickname of the JFK special warfare school?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
.

What was your FOB in country?

I have a question for you that you will not find the answer for on the internet. What is the nickname of the JFK special warfare school?

Countersrike University!

Oh excuse me its america's army, give me a break man. stick to video games.

 

[JTWill]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
.

What was your FOB in country?

I have a question for you that you will not find the answer for on the internet. What is the nickname of the JFK special warfare school?

Countersrike University!

NOPE.....I asked for its nickname....

I did say you will not find it on the internet.

 

[JTWill]

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
.

What was your FOB in country?

I have a question for you that you will not find the answer for on the internet. What is the nickname of the JFK special warfare school?

Countersrike University!

NOPE.....I asked for its nickname....

I did say you will not find it on the internet..

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
.

What was your FOB in country?

I have a question for you that you will not find the answer for on the internet. What is the nickname of the JFK special warfare school?

Countersrike University!

NOPE.....I asked for its nickname....

Why? You trying to recruit me to your AA clan? Then can I be l33t counterterrorism gi joe like you?

 

[JTWill]

You are the one that called me a liar remember? I just gave you a question and I told you it cannot be found on the internet. Any special Ops man can PM me for the answer. Thats as far as I will go with you, for us its a nickname and a joke at the same time. I personally did not feel it proper to continue debating guys in these threads without a bare minimum of my backgroud, which you have called a complete lie. BTW it did not take me long to find several instances of your personal attacks on others. BTW my second assignment in the Army out of Vietnam was Berlin Germany...Field Station Berlin. Have some questions on that one?

 

[Steeplerot]

I dunno about you, you brag like some pogue trying to show off, you should know better to come in bragging like some rambo who has something to prove.

Same old story there are a million fake vets out there nowdays trying to front if you want a shred of credibility there are plenty of former servicemembers here who are fed up with fake BS and keyboard commandos and your "stories" of being spec ops in afganistan dont pass the smell test to be up front about.

You are far too "enthusiastic" and dont come off like someone who has seen real combat.

 

[JTWill]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I dunno about you, you brag like some pogue trying to show off, you should know better to come in bragging like some rambo who has something to prove.

Same old story there are a million fake vets out there nowdays trying to front if you want a shred of credibility there are plenty of former servicemembers here who are fed up with fake BS and keyboard commandos and your "stories" of being spec ops in afganistan dont pass the smell test to be up front about.

You are far too "enthusiastic" and dont come off like someone who has seen real combat.

First off from what I've seen, there are not any veterans agreeing with you.
Let me tell you about Rambo, he shows up the first time on a combat mission and first thing a sargeant does is make him put his grenades behind him instead of his front. Then you pretty much leave him alone with other stupid things he has picked up from hollywood. Hes about to learn, when the fighting starts and hes crawling, he loses that upside down knife he had on his web gear....he doesnt even know he lost it. He fires his rifle with everthing going on faster than anything he ever imagine. His trigger finger is holding down the trigger of an empty rifle not realizing hes out of ammo. He has to be grabbed by the collar because he does not realize its time to leave. His pants have a wet streak around his crouch and sometimes he has a smell about him too. Thats your rambo the first time in combat. BTW He finds out real quick how hard it is to crawl along the ground having his gear like hollywood.
You again make assumptions like I EVER described combat as some kind of game. Whats not passing a smell test is you having the background to judge a veteran, or if he is not.
Sorry pal but in quite a few posts you have made assumptions of what I was doing and why. Probably like why I would be up this late....different time zones. The political threads in this forum are some of the worst I've seen. You want to see the best people at Anandtech I suggest you hang out with the Distributed Computing guys are some of the good techs in the tech section.
You want something to really dislike you can go to RR link in my sig. Where I know I talk to Veterans and Cops. NAH, I'm a mod there so I'm sure you wont like it.....But a funny thing occurred to me...They know I am a soldier there.

 

[Steeplerot]

I looked there and you only repeated the same line once and noone even responded to your bragging, Your just as bad as this forum at its worst in that forum with the rhetoric, just you have no critics, anyhow, nice forum layout but no thanks, no traffic and consists from what I have seen of conservatives whining about being poor poor victims, whats new. I will pass, it seems pretty slow also.

 

[fitzov]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Pens1566

Originally posted by: JTWill
Oh BTW I hate people that have never fought a battle telling me how to take care of my men.

You mean like Bush and Cheney?

Dont remembering them ever telling me how to anything with a unit. But I've seen enough guys like you that think the press stories give you the equal knowledge of my near 30 years.
You guys ever give stupid hate a rest? I have heard this useless hate filled garbage since LBJ. Everyones a Battlefield General only they never showed up for the fight.

I see what you're saying but you seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you don't like anyone who has not seen combat tell you how to lead your men, but on the other you have people in your chain of command that have not seen combat. You wouldn't have to go as far as Rumsfeld to find that out.

You have demonstrated a comlpete lack of understanding of what a chain of command is for. Theres a reason we dont have a single civilian commander, and a milllion privates running around. Besides micro-managing, there would be endless problems. One of which is the distance at which they can analyze a problem. Theres a reason the civilian leadership appoints more expirienced people to make decisions such as what gear is issued to front line troops. When they forget about why certain people are dedicated to such duties, and meddle with it to please the media, they end up doing more harm than help.

I don't think you understood my comment. The issue is not whether someone is a civilian, but has combat experience. If someone in your chain of command, whether that be your CO, the battalion commander, the division commander, or what have you, does not have combat experience, then that presents a problem for subordinates who don't like people without combat experience meddling in their decisions.

And you can drop the "I'm a soldier you're not." attitude, because I'm a veteran.

 

[Starbuck1975]

This whole body armor issue is a political wedge and nothing more.

As others have already mentioned, under intense combat conditions, many soldiers choose not to wear their body armor as it is cumbersome, heavy and quite suffocating under high heat conditions. Even in the Balkans, we had trouble getting soldiers to wear their body armor, despite the very real threat of mine strikes on an almost daily basis.

The body armor used by law enforcement is simply not practical for use by soldiers, again for reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Also, there have been several editorials lately on casualties from Iraq...the majority of American wounded and killed in Iraq have been from IEDs and mortars...no body armor in the world is going to protect you from those types of threats.

There is currently research being conducted on various types of body armor...but those technologies are at least 5 to 10 years out from production, let alone testing and fielding.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: JTWill

Originally posted by: Pens1566

Originally posted by: JTWill
Oh BTW I hate people that have never fought a battle telling me how to take care of my men.

You mean like Bush and Cheney?

Dont remembering them ever telling me how to anything with a unit. But I've seen enough guys like you that think the press stories give you the equal knowledge of my near 30 years.
You guys ever give stupid hate a rest? I have heard this useless hate filled garbage since LBJ. Everyones a Battlefield General only they never showed up for the fight.

I see what you're saying but you seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you don't like anyone who has not seen combat tell you how to lead your men, but on the other you have people in your chain of command that have not seen combat. You wouldn't have to go as far as Rumsfeld to find that out.

You have demonstrated a comlpete lack of understanding of what a chain of command is for. Theres a reason we dont have a single civilian commander, and a milllion privates running around. Besides micro-managing, there would be endless problems. One of which is the distance at which they can analyze a problem. Theres a reason the civilian leadership appoints more expirienced people to make decisions such as what gear is issued to front line troops. When they forget about why certain people are dedicated to such duties, and meddle with it to please the media, they end up doing more harm than help.

I don't think you understood my comment....

And you completely missed mine. The original comment to which you replied was about civilians messing with areas that are not thier job, i.e. front line gear, not that they exist in the chain of command.

 

[palehorse]

ok, i dont know a single soldier deployed without armor since 2004... And I'm fairly confident that any who went without it before then are 100% justified in using whatever they could find at the time. this issue deals with the reality of equipment being issued TODAY, not 3-4 years ago!

The problem is that many soldiers buy the 3rd-party armor for comfort reasons and wear it INSTEAD of the armor they get issued, thus making them more vulnerable. the Armor they issue is damn effective, so there is no excuse for wearing 3rd-party untested armor simply because it's not as heavy, or more comfortable while driving, etc...

This is what happens when clueless civilians try to understand what the military does

 

[outriding]

Originally posted by: palehorse74


This is what happens when clueless civilians try to understand what the military does

Clueless???

Did you even read the article?

"the Army has been unable to determine the veracity of these claims."

then in the next paragraph..

"In its current state of development, Dragon Skin's capabilities do not meet Army requirements," the Army order says, and it "has not been certified to protect against several small arms threats that the military is encountering in Iraq and Afghanistan."

It seems like to me the Army is the clueless one here.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: palehorse74


This is what happens when clueless civilians try to understand what the military does

Clueless???

Did you even read the article?

"the Army has been unable to determine the veracity of these claims."

then in the next paragraph..

"In its current state of development, Dragon Skin's capabilities do not meet Army requirements," the Army order says, and it "has not been certified to protect against several small arms threats that the military is encountering in Iraq and Afghanistan."

It seems like to me the Army is the clueless one here.

you managed to miss the entire f'n point. the point was that those who are buying and using 3rd-party armor, such as DragonSkin, are only doing so for reasons of comfort and convenience. They ARE being issued fully tested sets of armor! They're only choosing not to wear them because it's "too hot" or "too heavy"... that is unacceptable. There is no excuse for not wearing the issued armor unless you don't get a set issued. And as for that, I dont know a single soldier who has deployed without armor since 2004; and you can easily get replacement sets in-country at RFI.

this order was given because of soldiers who read Soldier of Fortune magazine and think they can ditch their perfectly good armor for lighter stuff that may or may not be as effective. That is what has been banned, as the 3rd-party gear has not been thoroughly tested and approved by the Army.

Be carefull who you argue with here. some of us actually know what we're talking about.

 

[outriding]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: palehorse74


This is what happens when clueless civilians try to understand what the military does

Clueless???

Did you even read the article?

"the Army has been unable to determine the veracity of these claims."

then in the next paragraph..

"In its current state of development, Dragon Skin's capabilities do not meet Army requirements," the Army order says, and it "has not been certified to protect against several small arms threats that the military is encountering in Iraq and Afghanistan."

It seems like to me the Army is the clueless one here.

you managed to miss the entire f'n point. the point was that those who are buying and using 3rd-party armor, such as DragonSkin, are only doing so for reasons of comfort and convenience. They ARE being issued fully tested sets of armor! They're only choosing not to wear them because it's "too hot" or "too heavy"... that is unacceptable. There is no excuse for not wearing the issued armor unless you don't get a set issued. And as for that, I dont know a single soldier who has deployed without armor since 2004; and you can easily get replacement sets in-country at RFI.

this order was given because of soldiers who read Soldier of Fortune magazine and think they can ditch their perfectly good armor for lighter stuff that may or may not be as effective. That is what has been banned, as the 3rd-party gear has not been thoroughly tested and approved by the Army.

Be carefull who you argue with here. some of us actually know what we're talking about.

You did not prove any of your points just talk.

And you did not give any proof that the Army does know if Dragonskin is better than its approved body armor.

With the advent of the Army deploying Humvees without proper armor during this conflict I am going to have side with the article. Until you can provide me a link from like a *.mil souce then you do not have a point.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: palehorse74


This is what happens when clueless civilians try to understand what the military does

Clueless???

Did you even read the article?

"the Army has been unable to determine the veracity of these claims."

then in the next paragraph..

"In its current state of development, Dragon Skin's capabilities do not meet Army requirements," the Army order says, and it "has not been certified to protect against several small arms threats that the military is encountering in Iraq and Afghanistan."

It seems like to me the Army is the clueless one here.

you managed to miss the entire f'n point. the point was that those who are buying and using 3rd-party armor, such as DragonSkin, are only doing so for reasons of comfort and convenience. They ARE being issued fully tested sets of armor! They're only choosing not to wear them because it's "too hot" or "too heavy"... that is unacceptable. There is no excuse for not wearing the issued armor unless you don't get a set issued. And as for that, I dont know a single soldier who has deployed without armor since 2004; and you can easily get replacement sets in-country at RFI.

this order was given because of soldiers who read Soldier of Fortune magazine and think they can ditch their perfectly good armor for lighter stuff that may or may not be as effective. That is what has been banned, as the 3rd-party gear has not been thoroughly tested and approved by the Army.

Be carefull who you argue with here. some of us actually know what we're talking about.

You did not prove any of your points just talk.

And you did not give any proof that the Army does know if Dragonskin is better than its approved body armor.

With the advent of the Army deploying Humvees without proper armor during this conflict I am going to have side with the article. Until you can provide me a link from like a *.mil souce then you do not have a point.

Ah, ok, that makes sense. You want evidence provided that you know won't be provided because it is either not published or restricted material. Genius!

What does your last paragraph have to do with it? Humvees all have proper armor now, soldiers all have proper armor. What you really want is for them to change the armor the soldiers are using. Got it.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: palehorse74


This is what happens when clueless civilians try to understand what the military does

Clueless???

Did you even read the article?

"the Army has been unable to determine the veracity of these claims."

then in the next paragraph..

"In its current state of development, Dragon Skin's capabilities do not meet Army requirements," the Army order says, and it "has not been certified to protect against several small arms threats that the military is encountering in Iraq and Afghanistan."

It seems like to me the Army is the clueless one here.

you managed to miss the entire f'n point. the point was that those who are buying and using 3rd-party armor, such as DragonSkin, are only doing so for reasons of comfort and convenience. They ARE being issued fully tested sets of armor! They're only choosing not to wear them because it's "too hot" or "too heavy"... that is unacceptable. There is no excuse for not wearing the issued armor unless you don't get a set issued. And as for that, I dont know a single soldier who has deployed without armor since 2004; and you can easily get replacement sets in-country at RFI.

this order was given because of soldiers who read Soldier of Fortune magazine and think they can ditch their perfectly good armor for lighter stuff that may or may not be as effective. That is what has been banned, as the 3rd-party gear has not been thoroughly tested and approved by the Army.

Be carefull who you argue with here. some of us actually know what we're talking about.

You did not prove any of your points just talk.

And you did not give any proof that the Army does know if Dragonskin is better than its approved body armor.

With the advent of the Army deploying Humvees without proper armor during this conflict I am going to have side with the article. Until you can provide me a link from like a *.mil souce then you do not have a point.

amazing... you managed to miss the point twice in a row.

last time: soldiers are not permitted to use protective gear or weapons that have not been officially tested and approved; UNLESS they dont get a set of approved armor issued. period. And as of early 2004, I have never heard of or seen a single soldier who was not issued the fully tested armor that has proven itself very effetive in the field (Interceptor Body Armor). Hell, most of us had the full neck-to-groin suits if we needed them!

Soldiers are buying items out of gun magazines based on rumors, reviews, and advertisements that promise effectiveness. That is a very unsafe practice, and is now officially against the rules. period.

yes, the issued armor is heavy! yes, it's hot too! Soldiers need to deal with that and drive on. there's no excuse to run out and buy 3rd-party gear just because Joe Blow says it's just as good... that attitude and practice will get more soldiers killed.