Discussion ARM Cortex/Neoverse IP + SoCs (no custom cores) Discussion

[soresu]

That is what is said about Mediatek and Nvidia. Mediatek licensed Nvidia's GPU IP but it's apparently only for automotive chips and mobile chips possibly. Come to think of it, if Mediatek makes PC chips in direct competition, why should Nvidia help them?

Have MTK even released a chip with nVidia IP on it yet?

I remember reading about that agreement, but nothing about an actual chip.

why should Nvidia help them?

It's a business arrangement - "help" is a misnomer when nVidia would be financially benefitting from it anyway.

It's basically free money.

MTK are taking on all the risks while only taking home a fraction of the profit.

Meanwhile nVidia can just sit and wait for the market to mature a bit more before committing to it.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Wasn’t there some exclusivity agreement between Qualcomm and MS?

Ah. You are right. Sources reported that the agreement was set to expire soon (this was at the end of 2021).

I think QC won't relinquish control of the WoARM market unless it makes a killing in sales first. Or it might keep renewing the exclusivity agreement by giving cheap chips for MS to use in their Surface hardware.

 

[soresu]

I think QC won't relinquish control of the WoARM market unless it makes a killing in sales first. Or it might keep renewing the exclusivity agreement by giving cheap chips for MS to use in their Surface hardware.

Doubtful.

MS will want a healthy, diversely supplied WoA market to grow it more than cheap Surface.

Especially given the current marketshare of WoA is not so woah 😅

In the future once WoA has a greater footing of overall Windows marketshare that might change, but realistically it's more likely to be MS punting out their own custom hw ecosystem, likely using either QC or MTK radios.

Either way this is going off track from future ARM µArchs to WoA.

 

[capricornsunvoyager2]

Wasn’t there some exclusivity agreement between Qualcomm and MS?

I understand that Mali Drivers for Windows are not available and there is no presence of Mali in the WoA platform other than Qualcomm. Despite rumors of its expiration, seems like the contract is still valid, and we have not seen this happening yet.

Regarding Samsung, they signed a contract exclusively for the use of AMD IP in markets where it doesn't compete against AMD. This only applies to phone and Android tablet SOCs, not laptop or PC SOCs. Therefore, Samsung cannot use AMD IP for those purposes. However, Samsung has invested in growing its use of AMD IP, continuing on the flagship Exynos line and expanding to the mid-range 1380. It seems Samsung will not be going "solo" for the laptop or PC SOC market any time soon.

 

[jpiniero]

They haven't had any presence as a full fledged SoC maker in any PC or mobile market since TX1, which is well known to have had a significant security flaw, and it's not like they are overflowing with Tegra orders either

Except for the Switch of course.

 

[soresu]

Except for the Switch of course.

Hence since TX1, which at this point is basically a decade old in terms of the CPU IP.

 

[FlameTail]

I think QC won't relinquish control of the WoARM market unless it makes a killing in sales first. Or it might keep renewing the exclusivity agreement by giving cheap chips for MS to use in their Surface hahardware.,

How could that be when reports were saying Nvidia and AMD are readying ARM chips for 2025?

 

[FlameTail]

Regarding Samsung, they signed a contract exclusively for the use of AMD IP in markets where it doesn't compete against AMD. This only applies to phone and Android tablet SOCs, not laptop or PC SOCs. Therefore, Samsung cannot use AMD IP for those purposes.

exactly this is what I was saying. Have you found the source?

However, Samsung has invested in growing its use of AMD IP, continuing on the flagship Exynos line and expanding to the mid-range 1380. It seems Samsung will not be going "solo" for the laptop or PC SOC market any time soon.

The Exynos 1380 still uses Mali. However it's succesor the 1480 which will be released in 2024 is rumoured to use RDNA.

 

[igor_kavinski]

How could that be when reports were saying Nvidia and AMD are readying ARM chips for 2025?

Yeah maybe the agreement expires in 2025. Who knows?

 

[capricornsunvoyager2]

exactly this is what I was saying. Have you found the source?

The Exynos 1380 still uses Mali. However it's succesor the 1480 which will be released in 2024 is rumoured to use RDNA.

Yes! I meant 1480, thanks for the correction.

On the Samsung-AMD deal, I can't find the exact source, but I remember reading about it.

I found this from the Press Release, in more PR-friendly language.

• AMD will license custom graphics IP... to Samsung for use in mobile devices, including smartphones, and other products that complement AMD product offerings.

The key word, complement, not in product lines that can compete with AMD.

 

[FlameTail]

Does SVE2 work with ARMv8?

 

[Nothingness]

Does SVE2 work with ARMv8?

No: https://developer.arm.com/Architectures/Scalable Vector Extensions

 

[SpudLobby]

How could that be when reports were saying Nvidia and AMD are readying ARM chips for 2025?

Because he’s wrong.

 

[SpudLobby]

I understand that Mali Drivers for Windows are not available and there is no presence of Mali in the WoA platform other than Qualcomm. Despite rumors of its expiration, seems like the contract is still valid, and we have not seen this happening yet.

Regarding Samsung, they signed a contract exclusively for the use of AMD IP in markets where it doesn't compete against AMD. This only applies to phone and Android tablet SOCs, not laptop or PC SOCs. Therefore, Samsung cannot use AMD IP for those purposes. However, Samsung has invested in growing its use of AMD IP, continuing on the flagship Exynos line and expanding to the mid-range 1380. It seems Samsung will not be going "solo" for the laptop or PC SOC market any time soon.

FWIW, MediaTek has been hiring and working on Mali drivers for Windows for some time now.

 

[SarahKerrigan]

Anyone know how the Windows IoT Enterprise release for the i.MX8 fits into the exclusivity agreement? It's effectively the same full Win10 as on consumer devices, just licensed differently. AFAIK it even has accelerated DX11 graphics drivers for the on-die Vivante block.

 

[FlameTail]

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/18yg8ww/_/kgaov7b

An excellent comment that details how and why Nvidia should make ARM CPUs for PC.

 

[igor_kavinski]

An excellent comment that details how and why Nvidia should make ARM CPUs for PC.

They would just become the Apple of gaming. No thanks.

 

[ikjadoon]

They would just become the Apple of gaming. No thanks.

Hopefully AMD & MediaTek & Qualcomm's entrances (alongside Intel) may bludgeon NVIDIA's anti-competitiveness streak, as I imagine NVIDIA will still sell mobile GPUs to use their competitors' CPUs.

The big win is that, if NVIDIA ships a Windows on ARM SoC, NVIDIA will also need to finally ship NVIDIA consumer Arm drivers for Windows.

Until we get performant x86 to Arm gaming emulation / translation, NVIDIA is stuck shipping dedicated GPUs.

 

[FlameTail]

Good point. If Nvidia makes an ARM CPU/SoC, WoA benefits as a whole, as then game devs will create native ARM version of their games.

 

[Glo.]

They would just become the Apple of gaming. No thanks.

And you think that AMD or Intel if they would go this route: unified memory architectures, would do it for benefit of the industry or their own?

 

[soresu]

They would just become the Apple of gaming

There's a good argument to be made that they already are the Apple of PC gfx/compute.

If they could have locked down the whole gaming ecosystem to their own proprietary gfx API they almost certainly would have by now.

 

[igor_kavinski]

And you think that AMD or Intel if they would go this route: unified memory architectures, would do it for benefit of the industry or their own?

They have enough volume that they are forced to reduce prices to enable more sales. Jensen price gouges the OEMs who are then forced to sell at higher prices and they can't really reduce prices that much otherwise they would go broke.

 

[igor_kavinski]

There's a good argument to be made that they already are the Apple of PC gfx/compute.

Yes, for deranged consumers with money to waste. Intel and AMD both have DX12 Ultimate compatible hardware and it is not impossible to be happy with their products. Especially when one does the mental math and realizes that the alternative doesn't justify the much higher price.

 

[ikjadoon]

Blackhawk (Cortex-X5) returns with a big hype report directly from Arm a year before launch.

RESEARCH NOTE: Arm’s “Blackhawk” CPU Is An Audacious Plan To Have The Best Smartphone CPU Core This Year

For years now, there has been what I consider a healthy, competitive tension between Arm CPU instruction set licensees and Arm’s pe-packaged and pre-validated IP licensees. (I am sure some licensees would challenge me on “healthy” given Apple’s performance.) I think it made sense that Arm would...

moorinsightsstrategy.com

“Blackhawk” is Arm’s next-generation Cortex-X processor, which Arm plans to enable in smartphones shipping at the end of 2024. I think phones could be on the shelf a year from now at CES or maybe MWC. I am told that this is part of Arm CEO Rene Haas’s strategy to “eliminate the performance gap between Arm-designed processors and custom Arm implementations.” This is a big and bold claim because it is so difficult, and Apple has run the table for so long.

Arm is citing Geekbench 6 as the measure of performance merit and reflects the “largest year-over-year IPC performance increase in 5 years.”

It may help explain why NVIDIA and AMD are especially interested in launching Windows on Arm SoCs in 2025.

I need to find the comment again, but X4 is within 10% IPC of Nuvia’s Oryon core and Apple’s A17 Pro core.

 

[FlameTail]

Blackhawk” is Arm’s next-generation Cortex-X processor, which Arm plans to enable in smartphones shipping at the end of 2024. I think phones could be on the shelf a year from now at CES or maybe MWC. I am told that this is part of Arm CEO Rene Haas’s strategy to “eliminate the performance gap between Arm-designed processors and custom Arm implementations.” This is a big and bold claim because it is so difficult, and Apple has run the table for so long.

Arm is citing Geekbench 6 as the measure of performance merit and reflects the “largest year-over-year IPC performance increase in 5 years.”

Does that include the Cortex A78 -> Cortex X1 jump? Cortex A78 -> X1 brought +30% IPC.

If so, BlackHawk will bring >30% IPC increase!

THAT
IS
TERRIFIC.