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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
Ah! He put wheels on the ark and pushed it from mount ararat to the Indian ocean!

Cunning.

See Buckshot, this is the information you need to be sharing. It makes your beliefs sound so much more likely!

To be fair the elephants probably helped.

What confuses me is that many modern christians have come up with far more plausible explanations for the more outlandish stories: that they're just allegories or such. I suppose some still fear the slippery slope that creates, but at least you look a lot less ridiculous.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,672
136
CkHoZSK.jpg
 
Feb 16, 2005
14,079
5,450
136
Nah, fundamentalist Muslims believe in this ark crap too. I wonder if buckshot.... :hmm:.

people are saying... you know, it's being heard that it isn't something that may or may not be the truth. But people, you know, good people, are talking.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Hello my dear friend.

My math completely ignores other types of animals because it doesn't matter. I'm talking about the variation in only mammals so why would I include the number of bacteria? I wouldn't and yes that is an estimate which I've said.
You came to an incorrect conclusion and wouldn't be disabused of your error, no matter what I said. I was talking about limits so cherry picking isn't an appropriate accusation.
It is simple mathematics. Tell me what you do not understand.
Yeah, why not? Because that isn't my point. The mutation rate of any single point change is only 10^9, two simultaneous changes is 10^18 and 3 is 10^27. Simple mathematics. Any change that requires 3 mutations at once is only going to happen once out of every billion times you go through 10^20 organisms. It will happen only 100 times for a change that requires on 2 every 10^20 organisms.

Hint, I'm not talking about CQ resistance here.
It didn't. You just kept saying what my point was and wouldn't listen when you were told you were wrong.

Ah perfect. Given all of your BS, we can talk about that later. Just like you continued refusal to explain why you posted a manuscript that refuted your own arguments. Just like your cherry picking of mutation rates, and trying to blame me for your own ignorance.

But let's put your ignorance on show in one simple sentence.

"The mutation rate of any single point change is only 10^9, two simultaneous changes is 10^18 and 3 is 10^27."

So where did you cherry-pick that data from? The estimated mutation rate in humans is 2.5x10^-8 mutations per nucleotide site For those reading, see: Nachman MW, Crowell SL. Estimate of the mutation rate per nucleotide in humans.Genetics. 2000 Sep;156(1):297-304.

But what you don't understand because you lack any biological knowledge is what the denominator means. That is the mutational rate PER NUCLEOTIDE SITE. Humans have a genome that is 7 x10^9 NUCLEOTIDES in size (per the same citation). So that mutational rate means that each generation there will be roughly 7x10^9 x 2.5 x10^-8 =

~175 spontaneous mutations PER diploid genome per generation.

Your stupid math blatantly omits the fact you have to multiple the mutational rate by the genome size. And this is a simplistic average estimation because it only accounts for nucleotide changes, it does not account for the specific nucleotide change, genomic duplications, deletions, and environmental factors that would alter the estimated mutation rate.

But we all know how you will react to this. Run and hide. Block and try to hide your blatant distortion of facts. Your lack of biological knowledge is astounding. Next time you google what a mutation rate is, why don't you actually try to understand it?

This is what happens when creationists think they understand biology, but completely screw it up.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
That makes no sense.

Yeah it does. You think mathematical equations and proofs constitute primary evidence in support of a process. So what is the mathematical equation that proves DNA leads to protein production?

Or do you not believe DNA leads to protein production?
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Any sources for this assertion or is it just faith?

Creationists have a tendency to lump together anyone who registers themselves as a Christian as therefore a "creationist" when they think it will lend them (the creationists) some credibility.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
Ah perfect. Given all of your BS, we can talk about that later. Just like you continued refusal to explain why you posted a manuscript that refuted your own arguments. Just like your cherry picking of mutation rates, and trying to blame me for your own ignorance.

But let's put your ignorance on show in one simple sentence.

"The mutation rate of any single point change is only 10^9, two simultaneous changes is 10^18 and 3 is 10^27."

So where did you cherry-pick that data from? The estimated mutation rate in humans is 2.5x10^-8 mutations per nucleotide site For those reading, see: Nachman MW, Crowell SL. Estimate of the mutation rate per nucleotide in humans.Genetics. 2000 Sep;156(1):297-304.

But what you don't understand because you lack any biological knowledge is what the denominator means. That is the mutational rate PER NUCLEOTIDE SITE. Humans have a genome that is 7 x10^9 NUCLEOTIDES in size (per the same citation). So that mutational rate means that each generation there will be roughly 7x10^9 x 2.5 x10^-8 =

~175 spontaneous mutations PER diploid genome per generation.

Your stupid math blatantly omits the fact you have to multiple the mutational rate by the genome size. And this is a simplistic average estimation because it only accounts for nucleotide changes, it does not account for the specific nucleotide change, genomic duplications, deletions, and environmental factors that would alter the estimated mutation rate.

But we all know how you will react to this. Run and hide. Block and try to hide your blatant distortion of facts. Your lack of biological knowledge is astounding. Next time you google what a mutation rate is, why don't you actually try to understand it?

This is what happens when creationists think they understand biology, but completely screw it up.

To be fair to buckshot, you're misunderstanding his creation math.

He thinks for certain mammals to exist, a certain sequence of unlikely events must occur, therefore he deduces that likelihood by multiply the events together. This is why I asked him to figure out the likelihood of him or anyone else getting to the present here using that same math.


Wait, buckshot thinks math provides proof of real world stuff?

Also to be fair, he doesn't really know the difference between math & science.

He's seen enough math in school to know that "proofs" of technical stuff exist, and this science thing looks like technical stuff, therefore seeks proofs for it. That's all.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
I think the only real world proof made in this thread is that buckshot is a moron.

QED
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Ah perfect. Given all of your BS, we can talk about that later. Just like you continued refusal to explain why you posted a manuscript that refuted your own arguments. Just like your cherry picking of mutation rates, and trying to blame me for your own ignorance.
It didn't, you didn't understand my argument. You were corrected multiple times.

But let's put your ignorance on show in one simple sentence.

"The mutation rate of any single point change is only 10^9, two simultaneous changes is 10^18 and 3 is 10^27."

So where did you cherry-pick that data from? The estimated mutation rate in humans is 2.5x10^-8 mutations per nucleotide site For those reading, see: Nachman MW, Crowell SL. Estimate of the mutation rate per nucleotide in humans.Genetics. 2000 Sep;156(1):297-304.
Why do you keep saying I'm cherry picking data? I can use your numbers if you like, there is a range of mutation rates that have been mentioned. Yours is a little more than 3 times as likely which really doesn't help you any.

Those should be 10^-9 etc etc.

I used that number from this paper.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2910838/

But what you don't understand because you lack any biological knowledge is what the denominator means. That is the mutational rate PER NUCLEOTIDE SITE. Humans have a genome that is 7 x10^9 NUCLEOTIDES in size (per the same citation). So that mutational rate means that each generation there will be roughly 7x10^9 x 2.5 x10^-8 =
Of course! You'll probably tell me I didn't know this but of course. This is why it works for any genome size. I'm not saying that any change within the entire genome is only going to happen once every 10^9 cell divisions. Ridiculous.
~175 spontaneous mutations PER diploid genome per generation.
So what?
Your stupid math blatantly omits the fact you have to multiple the mutational rate by the genome size.
Why? You blithering moron! My argument has nothing to do whatsoever with what you're trying to make it out to be.
But we all know how you will react to this. Run and hide. Block and try to hide your blatant distortion of facts. Your lack of biological knowledge is astounding. Next time you google what a mutation rate is, why don't you actually try to understand it?
Nope, you're a dolt if you think that is what I was saying. Are you a dolt or a liar?
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Yeah it does. You think mathematical equations and proofs constitute primary evidence in support of a process. So what is the mathematical equation that proves DNA leads to protein production?

Or do you not believe DNA leads to protein production?
Where do you get this ridiculous idea from?
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Also to be fair, he doesn't really know the difference between math & science.

He's seen enough math in school to know that "proofs" of technical stuff exist, and this science thing looks like technical stuff, therefore seeks proofs for it. That's all.
You're the one that made that comparison.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
I'm sorry that I do not believe your fairy tale.

That's okay, nature never intended for us to know how it works so it certainly is complicated for some to grasp. You just haven't evolved enough yet, maybe your grand children will be able to understand.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
That's okay, nature never intended for us to know how it works so it certainly is complicated for some to grasp. You just haven't evolved enough yet, maybe your grand children will be able to understand.
I understand it, I don't buy it.