I prefer using statistics, facts, and personal experience, but hey, whatever you prefer. Bottom line (agreed on by nearly every source in existence) - firearms are used defensively hundreds of thousands of times every year (at a MINIMUM)...multiply that over 30+ years of concealed carry. That's how many crimes/injuries were prevented. End of argument.
I prefer using statistics, facts, and personal experience, but hey, whatever you prefer. Bottom line (agreed on by nearly every source in existence) - firearms are used defensively hundreds of thousands of times every year (at a MINIMUM)...multiply that over 30+ years of concealed carry. That's how many crimes/injuries were prevented. End of argument.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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You know I used to place your posts in a different category than the typical ad hom happy blowhards that frequent these forums, but now thanks to your great manners and inability to simply leave it at "Well I disagree" I see I may have been wrong here. I haven't insulted you at all, yet you seem intent on name calling. Please stop denigrating your post history; you're better than that. What happened to "an armed society is a polite society"? I can understand you're passionate about gun rights, that's fine, but let's leave the childish name calling to the kids ok?
Anyway, yes, it seems quite a few states have pulled this off, how about that. I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that an agrarian community, raised around firearms, is more level headed with their application than say, downtown Detroit. The same gist as your FBI link I believe. I still don't care for your statistics though. You're posing a question based on frequency, with one group being drastically larger than the other. Also, I noticed you make no distinctions in the caliber of offenses here, which seems quite odd. Naturally I have a problem viewing a cop who keeps a confiscated dimebag, or takes a blowjob not to write a ticket, as on the same level as a lawful CCW holder going on an 11 person killing spree. Percentages don't mean shit when it's your friends or family chillin at the morgue.
I just hope you understand that I'm not arguing against CCW permits in general. It's the addition of alcohol that worries me. That the law states the holder cannot imbibe doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, as recent history has shown that merely possessing a CCW doesn't mean you follow the law. I also feel this could do more harm than good for the owners of said establishments. Citizens still cannot pack heat in a court room, so clearly the idea here is not alien.
Was going to post some links of my own, but I have to leave for an interview soon, maybe later....
They won't be able to drink alcohol AT THE BAR. Just like in Florida you can drink alcohol while carrying a weapon in a RESTAURANT.. but not in the bar of a restaurant. I suspect its similar in AZ.. as long as the bar isn't serving you booze, you are legal even if you are drunk.
i think each state has a slightly different guideline relating to alcohol and CCW. In Michigan, it's illegal to drink any alcohol and carry a firearm, regardless of where you drank the alcohol (bar, restaurant, home, ect.). If i choose to drink while carrying, the firearm gets unloads and put in a locked vehicle before i start drinking; that defeats the purpose of CCW so most of the people i know who are CCW, don't drink in businesses.
these laws will only affect the legal individuals; people carrying illegally will not pay attention to the rules regardless.
but it is funny to see the hyperbole of emotions and "logic" coming from both sides of the aisle. kind of surprised this thread hasn't been locked already.
these laws will only affect the legal individuals; people carrying illegally will not pay attention to the rules regardless.
but it is funny to see the hyperbole of emotions and "logic" coming from both sides of the aisle. kind of surprised this thread hasn't been locked already.
Why do some many of you try to polarize this debate? It's not a question of being a "liberal" or a "conservative." It's simple logic. In no way is having a gun at a bar a positive thing.
My friend's father, after having a few drinks at a local restaurant here in Memphis, got into a verbal altercation with another man at the bar inside. Because he had a gun on his person, he shot the man (a father of two) dead on the spot. You can't tell me that if he hadn't had that gun, the shooting still would have happened.
So please, someone tell me why allowing guns in bars should be allowed? I'm really willing to hear any logical arguments.
Then what the hell will legalizing it do? It certainly won't decrease the chances. Ever stop to think about that?
These types of statements never cease to make me laugh...
Logically in a free country the Bar owner should allow or not allow weapons inside. In a free country that is. That's the whole thing with freedom, it comes with responsibility.
A quick check of TN law seems to show that carrying in a bar is not legal. I guess the law didn't stop him did it? Assuming your 'friends father' is a valid permit holder at all. What your point seems to prove is that people who are going to illegally carry into a bar and use a weapon are going to do it regardless of any laws, and by not allowing valid permit holders to carry they are simply defenseless against people like your 'friends father' who will carry anyway.
Legalizing carry into bars MAY CERTAINLY decrease the chances. If people are fearful that the person they are arguing with may have a gun, they may choose to avoid the conflict.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
- Feb 8, 2001
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I don't recommend going on a shooting rampage while drunk as accuracy falls off considerably. Nor do I advocate for taking a knife to a gunfight. We all know there has to be a balance between accuracy and power.
Most everyone gets their interest, and their training, in firearms either in their youth or once they are in the military. That is fact. I believe the military aspect is being covered in other threads, but we haven't discussed kids with guns adequately yet.
I remember a news story not too long ago about this and it took me a while to find it but this anecdotal incident kind of brings it home.
Little Boy Heroically Shoots, Mutilates Burglar
Actually, it is legal...
OK, so let's legalize it and make it that much easier for these types of crimes to be committed.
Yeah, a bar late at night sure is a bastion of good judgment.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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Actually I carried 6 handguns into a bar under my coat. It's perfectly legal.
I went out with my brothers and a few of his friends to a frozen lake to do some ice fishing/snowmobiling/plinking.
Rather than leave them in the car, we just brought them all in. I did the courtesy of letting the waitress that we were armed and why so when we removed our jackets no one would be nervous. She was cool with it, and the bartender came in to see what we had, because he was a gun buff. We unloaded them before we came in and left the ammo/magazines in the trunk.
Check BJS, FBI, academic papers, state reports, or any other source. Low end is about 170,000 per year while the high end is 2.5 million per year. Most fall in the 350,000-800,000 range.
I see it as a reassuring statistic regarding society. People are still capable of taking care of themselves on some level.
I see no such evidence its legal:
http://www.tennessee.gov/safety/handgun/handguntca.htm
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf
Note the references to new statutes regarding carrying in a restaurant.. its now legal in restaurants that serve alcohol, as long as you are not consuming it.. the 2nd link also references that does not apply to being in the 'bar' area of a restaurant. I see no evidence that carrying in a bar in TN was, or ever has been legal. I could be wrong there but why would they pass a law making it OK to carry in restaurants that server alcohol if it were already legal to do it in bars?
I know someone that works at that bar, they had camera footage of you coming in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX8Y5-BZLaM#t=15s
You're correct, I have NO patience or manners with regards to this topic. After spending so many years neck-deep in the politics and media surrounding the issue I'm done with people who don't just go get the available research and draw rational conclusions. Sorry if that's a problem for you, but that's just where I'm at on this particular subject. The evidence is far too overwhelming to leave any doubt. It may be sad in some ways, but it's truth.
I agree, it's not an equal comparison, but it's not meant to be. The question is about general morality and trustworthiness, and cops don't rate highly in those areas (in general, when compared to the rest of the population). Moreover, there will ALWAYS be outliers in EVERY survey or sample. There will always be SOME permit holders that commit crimes, and SOME of those will be heinous. However, compared to the population as a whole, or even sections of it (like law enforcement) it happens so much less frequently as to be discarded as a meaningful statistic. That doesn't mean I'm not sad for those who suffer, it just means that's the price for being alive, and living in a society of 330,000,000 with different situation, beliefs, and problems. No power on Earth can or will EVER change that.
Laws don't stop people from doing things. The law says don't speed, but most people do. The law says don't smoke pot, but most people at least try it. Just because the law before was not to carry a gun, people still did (trust me, I arrested a LOT of them over the years working security at bars). And now, with the new law, people WILL drink, even though they're not supposed to. However, the overall impact of it will be negligible at best - exactly what it's been for years. Laws have basically no impact on the habits they try to regulate. They just generate revenue for the government when people get caught breaking them. That's the only use laws have.
Citizens don't necessarily need to pack in a courtroom because most courthouses have controlled, secure entry points and armed workers whose job it is to keep you safe. The same is not true most anywhere else in the world. I actually have no issue with CPL holders carrying in a courthouse, or basically everywhere else for that matter. However, if people insist on some compromise then I'll surrender any secured location where another armed person is wholly responsible (and liable) for my safety.
As most on here know, I'm not a Republican, not a Conservative, and not the same kind of rabid gun-nut that generally represents the NRA and their ilk. I believe in required safety training, have no problem with licensing, have very little problem with registration (though I argue that it has no positive uses, and am supported statistically in that), don't mind off-limits areas when they're secured, etc. I can agree on rational compromises when they have an actual, demonstrable benefit. It's just knee-jerk, emotional responses and the ignoring of statistical data that I have no patience for.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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That wasn't too far off
Despite that at least at the time (a dozen years back or so) there were NO laws prohibiting the carry of any legal weapon (so by default everything was legal) the shooting rate was far lower than national average. The reason is that most Vermonters are familiar with firearms, and more importantly, it's considered rude to shoot someone.
Tell that to him.
Or this waitress, or her rescuer.
Or this man.
Or this security guard.
Or here.
Or any of the other hundreds of such instances you can find in a few minutes looking. People have the right to defend themselves at a bar every bit as much as they do anywhere else.
Your friend's father was an idiot. Just like most other idiots. You actually DONT know that it wouldn't have happened. He might have gone to his car to get it, or he might have stabbed him, or hit him with a bottle killing him on accident, or any number of other possibilities.
Imagine if this brave Mexican citizen had a firearm to fend off this shooter. The cop is caught off guard but had this heroic man in Mexico been armed with his own firearm he would of lasted a bit longer and probably be alive today.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f7_1253336499
Criminals will carry guns anywhere and everywhere they deem fit to do so no matter what laws are written on the books. Allowing law abiding citizens to do the same ensures they also have a chance to defend their lives when the worst happens.
Look no further then the Bay Area in California and the liberal cities who are staunchly anti-gun ownership but have high crime rates such as Oakland, Richmond and San Francisco. These cities all make owning a firearm for a legal and law abiding citizen damn near impossible and you can forget about a CCW license. Those are only given to the very rich and powerful like judges, actors, and politicians in California.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f7_1253336499
Criminals will carry guns anywhere and everywhere they deem fit to do so no matter what laws are written on the books. Allowing law abiding citizens to do the same ensures they also have a chance to defend their lives when the worst happens.
Look no further then the Bay Area in California and the liberal cities who are staunchly anti-gun ownership but have high crime rates such as Oakland, Richmond and San Francisco. These cities all make owning a firearm for a legal and law abiding citizen damn near impossible and you can forget about a CCW license. Those are only given to the very rich and powerful like judges, actors, and politicians in California.
No, it is not:
'
Source direct link from Tennessee.gov
According to 39-17-1321. it was also illegal for him to be drinking while in possession of the firearm.
Furthermore, as has been noted earlier, several states do allow those with a CC permit to consume alcohol in bars. No one has yet to find a single story of a person being shot in a bar by a CC permit holder. You have demonstrated that it will happen when it is illegal, without demonstrating that it will happen more when it is legal.
In other words, if making it illegal does not reduce the number of innocent people hurt, then why make it illegal? PrinceofWands has already demonstrated that allowing CC in bars has protected innocent people.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Can I borrow a gun?Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Want to go for a drink in Vermont?
Last I heard they gave everyone one as you crossed the border.
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