Arizonans with concealed weapons permits allowed to bring guns in bars starting Wednesday
- Thread starter b0mbrman
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umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
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Well it seems that all an owner has to do is hang a sign if they don't like it. I agree, it is a good day for freedom when you can carry into a bar so long as the owner allows it and doesn't serve you booze.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
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But of course its ok to walk into a bar when you have a valid drivers license, car keys in your pocket and a car in the parking lot and expect a drink right?
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
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Upon closer inspection I think Specop is trying to say that you should be able to drink with your gun as well because you are allowed to serve people who are going to be driving.
Well Specop if you think that's the case, by all means lobby to change the law. The legislature has determined that people are not a significant threat to others up to a certain BAC, and so you can drink and drive up to a point. Undoubtedly considering the number of drunken fights each week in bars, they decided drinking and concealed weapons were a bad idea.
Well Specop if you think that's the case, by all means lobby to change the law. The legislature has determined that people are not a significant threat to others up to a certain BAC, and so you can drink and drive up to a point. Undoubtedly considering the number of drunken fights each week in bars, they decided drinking and concealed weapons were a bad idea.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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And a bad day for common sense...
Loudmouth soup and ballistic weapons mixed together in a confined area, what could go wrong? Common courtesy dictates you remove your hat when entering an establishment, while actual laws in many states prevent you from entering with a cigarette or lighting one up within establishments. Why on earth should firearms be treated differently? Is getting good service in Arizona really that hard?
Are Arizonans so overwhelmed by the latent sexual tension and underlying gender competition of a party atmosphere they need the presence of cold steel to partake in the festivities? Forgive me if the caveat of weapon carriers not being allowed to drink doesn't assuage my concerns. Too many friends of mine with CC permits view pat downs and such as a violation of rights and dignity, and certainly anathema to the whole concept of concealment.
As a gun rights supporter, I wish my cordite-scented friends would stop trying to bring back the Wild West. Allowing opened mini-kegs within moving vehicles might a grand notion of freedom - doesn't mean it's a good idea though.
Loudmouth soup and ballistic weapons mixed together in a confined area, what could go wrong? Common courtesy dictates you remove your hat when entering an establishment, while actual laws in many states prevent you from entering with a cigarette or lighting one up within establishments. Why on earth should firearms be treated differently? Is getting good service in Arizona really that hard?
Are Arizonans so overwhelmed by the latent sexual tension and underlying gender competition of a party atmosphere they need the presence of cold steel to partake in the festivities? Forgive me if the caveat of weapon carriers not being allowed to drink doesn't assuage my concerns. Too many friends of mine with CC permits view pat downs and such as a violation of rights and dignity, and certainly anathema to the whole concept of concealment. As a gun rights supporter, I wish my cordite-scented friends would stop trying to bring back the Wild West. Allowing opened mini-kegs within moving vehicles might a grand notion of freedom - doesn't mean it's a good idea though.
Originally posted by: kage69
And a bad day for common sense...
Loudmouth soup and ballistic weapons mixed together in a confined area, what could go wrong? Common courtesy dictates you remove your hat when entering an establishment, while actual laws in many states prevent you from entering with a cigarette or lighting one up within establishments. Why on earth should firearms be treated differently? Is getting good service in Arizona really that hard?
As a gun rights supporter, I wish my cordite-scented friends would stop trying to bring back the Wild West. Allowing opened mini-kegs within moving vehicles might a grand notion of freedom - doesn't mean it's a good idea though.
A firearm is not a hat. The Wild West is a nice strawman, though. The only point you might actually have buried in there is that pat-downs will become necessary when entering such an establishment - which will be interesting because I'm pretty certain that CWs must be declared when asked by an authority. Which, in a way, defeats the purpose of being concealed.
And given that the vast majority of concealed carry permit holders have already gone through extensive background checks as well as required training in some states, logic suggests they too are responsible enough not to pull out a gun in a bar for the fun of it. Given that they won't be drinking, there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to carry. The only thing you have a problem with is your own preconceived notion of the danger of guns. Get over it -- drunk driving and car accidents kill more per year than random gun violence ever did or will.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
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Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
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Its simple.
You believe its not ok for someone to walk into a bar with a firearm and be served a drink, however it IS ok to walk into a bar with a valid drivers license and a car and be served a drink.
In other words you are basing your decisions on emotional feel good bullshit and not logical fact. I wouldnt trust someone piss drunk with a firearm anymore then I would trust them with a set of car keys and yet you will immediately shout your objections to the one carrying the pistol......
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 30,941
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Congratulations Detective, you have a firm grasp upon the obvious. My point was that people already alter their appearances and habits to gain entry to an establishment. Leaving your Ruger at home or just back in the truck shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from proprietors (especially, I would hope, since 'deadly force' is at the crux of the issue here).
Either you haven't pondered it enough, or you don't know what the definition of a strawman is. Hrmmm.
Look, weapons were largely forbidden inside saloons during that era, yet customers armed themselves in secret anyway. This practice was commonly accepted at the time, and a peaceful, safe scene was not produced. Almost the opposite in fact.
Have you done any bouncing? Work in a bar at all? There is enough to worry about in regards to violence without firearms being involved.
Good of you to sidestep that naivete. Anyone really believing that CC holders follow every letter of the law needs to wake up. In the same way people have just a few drinks and then drive, people will also drink while packin. I don't see a way around that.
Sorry, but I've simply seen too much carnage go down in bars and clubs. I've learned never to underestimate the stupidity and aggression of a whiskey-addled man hellbent on answering perceived insults or threats. And it's even worse when pussy is added to the mix.
Alcohol and guns don't mix, just ask Dick Cheney.
It's a step. But they should be allowed to serve alcohol. Leave it up to the business owner to set policy. They've always had the right to refuse you service so keep it that way and not by law. I've seen plenty of firearms in bars.
Well I'm glad to hear that you think a firearm and a car are equally dangerous in the situation as a whole and that there are as many ways to mitigate danger with firearms as there are with cars. (with a car you can take a cab, I guess you could give your friend your gun? hahaha)
The legislature considered all these ideas and decided it's okay for you to have a few drinks and then drive, but that a gun was too dangerous. if you don't like it, change the law.
Deeko
Lifer
- Jun 16, 2000
- 30,213
- 12
- 81
What's your point, though? Its illegal to drink and drive. People can still go to a bar, get drunk, and drive. Its illegal to drink at the bar if you have a gun. That doesn't mean you can't still do it if you don't tell the bartender you're carrying. It certainly didn't stop Plaxico Burress.
So....what are you getting at? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 30,941
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Sorry, but that is not a given. Rules get bent and sometimes ignored. What if the carrier does his drinking earlier, outside the establishment? Are we adding sobriety checks to the list, next to the pat-downs that may or may not be happening?
Too much reliance on good intentions, and too little acknowledgment of what could certainly go wrong in a hurry.
Someone will probably die over this.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
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I don't drink, ever, and work in an ER where I see the end result of drinking and driving on a daily basis so I don't really care if all bars were shut down tomorrow. Assholes would still drink and drive. So you are way, wrong.
Deeko
Lifer
- Jun 16, 2000
- 30,213
- 12
- 81
Originally posted by: kage69
Sorry, but that is not a given. Rules get bent and sometimes ignored. What if the carrier does his drinking earlier, outside the establishment? Are we adding sobriety checks to the list, next to the pat-downs that may or may not be happening?
Too much reliance on good intentions, and too little acknowledgment of what could certainly go wrong in a hurry.
Someone will probably die over this.
The people that would still drink, despite being not allowed to, are the people that would likely have still carried, despite not being allowed to. I don't really think this changes much, other than giving gun nuts something to thump their chests about.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
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I dont understand why you would think I am arguing, but I suppose to someone who is close minded and confrontational they would view it as being an argument.
It was a point, that is all. The point of course is why does someone assume an individual with a firearm should absolutely not be served alcohol and yet an individual with a vehicle should be? This is such a gross failure of logic thats it simply disgusting.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
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Damn, no your just a fucking idiot, thats all. I'm sorry for that, but certainly I'm not going to waste my time with you pointing out the ridiculous arguemnt of beer and car = ok and beer and pistol = OMG FEAR.
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