Arizona signs immigration bill into law

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Federal law requires non citizens to carry identification documents.

If one does not have such documents, then they are either breaking Federal law or a US citizen.

If they are a US citizen; then they should be able to provide proof in one form or another that can be verified by a LEO.

Part of this is based on the LEO judgment and method of verification.

A person that normally would be questioned will still be questioned.
People are normally asked to show some identification when there is trouble. The same results would apply.

The only differenece is when the LEO is suspicious; they would follow up the immigration status in more detail.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Article shows how Obama's stance and actions on this could really hurt him, especially when he would be going against the will of the people yet again as most support Arizona's new law.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...lose-Arizona-immigration-battle-92460459.html

We know one thing for sure about the fight over Arizona's new immigration law. Civil-rights groups will file a lawsuit trying to kill the law and will ask a federal judge to issue an injunction to keep it from taking effect as scheduled this summer. What we don't know is how those proceedings will be affected by the Obama Justice Department, which is contemplating the highly unusual step of filing its own suit against the state of Arizona. Also unknown is the influence of President Obama himself, who has gone out of his way to raise questions –– some of them strikingly uninformed –– about the law.

The drafters of the law knew the lawsuit was coming; a lawsuit is always coming when a state tries to enforce the nation's immigration laws. What the drafters didn't expect was Obama's aggressive and personal role in trying to undermine the new measure.

"You can imagine, if you are a Hispanic American in Arizona ..." the president said Tuesday at a campaign-style appearance in Iowa, "suddenly, if you don't have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you're going to be harassed." On the same day, Attorney General Eric Holder said he was considering a court challenge.

"The practice of the Justice Department in the past with states involving immigration has been to let the courts settle it and not weigh in as a party," says Kris Kobach, the law professor and former Bush Justice Department official who helped draft the Arizona law. Having Justice intervene, Kobach and other experts say, would be extraordinary.

The problem for Obama and Holder is that the people behind the new law have been through this before –– and won. Arizona is three-for-three in defending its immigration measures. In 2008, the state successfully defended its employer-sanctions law, which made it a state crime to knowingly employ an illegal immigrant. Facing some of the same groups that are now planning to challenge the new law, Arizona prevailed both in federal district court and at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, the nation's most liberal federal appeals court.

In federal court in 2005, Arizona successfully defended Proposition 200, which required proof of citizenship for voting and also restricted benefits to illegals. And in 2006, officials won a state-court challenge to Arizona's human smuggling law.

The arguments that liberal groups make against the new law are similar to those made in the past. Foremost among them is the claim that only the federal government can handle immigration matters, and thus the Arizona measure pre-empts federal law.

Lawmakers thought of that ahead of time. "This law was carefully drafted to avoid any legal challenge on pre-emption in two ways," explains Kobach. "One, it perfectly mirrors federal law. Courts usually ask whether a state law is in conflict with federal law, and this law is in perfect harmony with federal law.

"Two, the new law requires local law enforcement officers not to make their own judgment about a person's immigration status but to rely on the federal government," Kobach continues. Any officer who reasonably suspects a person is illegal is required to check with federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "As long as the state or city is relying on the federal government to determine immigration status, that will protect against a pre-emption challenge," says Kobach.

But what if the Obama administration argues that the law is a burden on the federal government? Or refuses to assist Arizona in determining a person's legality? The drafters thought of that, too. There's a federal statute –– 8 USC 1373, passed during the Clinton years –– requiring the feds to verify a person's immigration status any time a state or local official asks for it. The federal government cannot deny assistance to Arizona without breaking the law itself.

Given all that, Obama and Holder will have a hard time stopping this law. Their best hope is that a judge might be swayed by the political storm that has erupted, mostly on the left, by opponents raising the specter of fascism, Nazism, and a police state in Arizona.

That was one thing the drafters didn't expect. As they see it, the old employer verification law was broader in scope and more serious in effect than the new law, and it didn't set off this kind of national controversy. That tells Kris Kobach one thing about the current battle: "It's more about the politics of 2010 than it is about this particular law."
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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No, I was completely right. Your ID or drivers license does not verify your citizenship.

You changed the subject to AZ ID and might be correct depending on if that valley truck driver's CDL was out of state.

Verdict: I was factually correct and you might be as well if that valley drivers CDL is out of state.



I was factually correct again. Your statement could be as well but is unproven. Regardless it does not contradict my statement.

Verdict: I was factually correct and you might be as well if you can substantiate it. You substantiating it in no way will ever disprove my statement.



Your claim was: "And here in AZ, an ID or license will establish that you are here legally."

I disproved your theory by showing where this wasn't the case. You later confined it to AZ licenses.

Verdict: I was factually correct. You were possibly sloppy and didn't specify AZ licenses. Otherwise you were just wrong.



I asked a question and you claimed one of the choices was already in place.

Verdict: kind of meaningless.



Actually you have proven nothing I've said factually incorrect and have made several statements that you haven't backed up yet.



If you or your wife leave the house without being able to prove you are legal you can be incarcerated.



This one is easy. As a citizen how are you going to prove your legal without your papers? If you can't then obviously you must have your papers. It didn't work out so well for the truck driver who was a citizen even with his CDL.

Ok, so you're 14 years old and a citizen but don't have an ID yet. There's some "lawful contact". Prove to me that you can keep from being detained without your papers.

Verdict: I was factually correct. It appears you were wrong unless you can come up with something.

This will be my last post responding to you in this thread. Im afraid my civility has come to an end. The fact is, every one of your points have been covered numerous times in thes thread (like the DL issue, which from the beginning I have clearly specified AZ DL), and you have decided to stand in front of a burning building and scream about how its not on fire. Your responses above have turned into pretty much babbling and foaming at the mouth. Youre either intentionally baiting, or one of the stupidest posters on this board.

Either way, I hope our enforcing of existing federal law keeps you away. Im not sure how you would do against an openly armed citizen. Have a nice day.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
To hear Obama criticize this bill, is just insane.

Every single law has the potential for abuse and harassment by law enforcement. To single this one out for gross exaggeration is absolutely incomprehensible.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
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National ID card?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20100430/cm_huffpost/557721

Gotta love this

It works to deport some immigrants who are not in the country legally and creates a limited pathway to citizenship for others.

So Democrats want a bill that will deport ONLY "some" of the ILLEGALS? and AMNESTY/citizenship for other ILLEGALS? Did we learn anything about the amnesty program in the late 80s? How did that turn out? Hope and change indeed. :(

Simple solution = 1)strengthen our border, 2)enforce our current fed/state laws, 3)streamline our LEGAL immigration proces, i.e., NO MORE ILLEGALS amnesty, NO MORE anchor babies. legal way or the highway. The people have spoken.
 
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Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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Would it still be racist if a Latino AZ law officer detains an illegal Latino immigrant?

Maybe they'll follow the Eleanor Holmes-Norton theory that a Latino LEO that does not march in lock step with La Raza is not a Latino.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
It is the target that is the contention of the liberals.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
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I still don't understand what the big deal is and I hope that a "progressive" can explain it to me.

So you are pulled over and 1 or 4 scenarios can occur.

1) You present your official state/US ID, your name is run through a computer and if your ID matches the computer you are fine - other than the crime you committed.

2) You present a foreign ID and your immigration papers (which you have to carry AT ALL TIME due to FEDERAL law), your name is run through a computer and if your ID matches the computer you are fine - other than the crime you committed.

3) You present a foreign ID and not not have your immigration papers. You are violating the terms of your immigration right there if you are legal but in any event, more followup is done to figure out your identity/legal status.

4) You have no ID. You are taken into custody until your identity can be verified. This would happen to ANYONE who is involved in a crime no matter what.

So, what does race have to do with any of these 4 circumstance?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Careful Obama, legal hispanics can vote and even they want illegals out. To continue to harrass Arizona and supporters of this law would be to your own detriment and loss of support and YET AGAIN going against the will of the people.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/30/arizona.hispanics.immigration/index.html?hpt=C1
Some Hispanic Americans hope law deters illegal immigration

Sue Schwartz says she's been called a racist so many times she doesn't mind the label anymore. If wanting immigrants to enter the country legally, like her great-grandparents from Mexico, and obey the laws of the land makes her racist, then so be it, she says firmly.
<snip>
Of equal concern to her friend, Martha Payan, is how she claims illegal immigrants "fleece" government coffers by collecting welfare on multiple children, or vanish without a trace after an arrest or a hospital visit.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
This will be my last post responding to you in this thread. Im afraid my civility has come to an end.

People losing an argument often react this way if they are childish.

The fact is, every one of your points have been covered numerous times in thes thread (like the DL issue, which from the beginning I have clearly specified AZ DL)

Fact is you have been unable to prove me wrong on even one small point.

Your responses above have turned into pretty much babbling and foaming at the mouth.

No, my responses have been logical and factual. You on the other hand repeatedly throw tantrums like a little child. If you can't prove me wrong you resort to lame ineffective insults.

Either way, I hope our enforcing of existing federal law keeps you away.

Existing federal law does not require all people to carry their papers every time they leave their house.

Im not sure how you would do against an openly armed citizen. Have a nice day.

If they aimed a gun at me I would shoot them in the head. Not sure where you're going with this one. Kind of off topic.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
I still don't understand what the big deal is and I hope that a "progressive" can explain it to me.

So you are pulled over and 1 or 4 scenarios can occur.

You don't have to be driving.

1) You present your official state/US ID, your name is run through a computer and if your ID matches the computer you are fine - other than the crime you committed.

An out of state license will not work. You also don't have to have committed a crime.

4) You have no ID. You are taken into custody until your identity can be verified. This would happen to ANYONE who is involved in a crime no matter what.

You don't have to be involved in a crime. A teenager asking for directions or someone walking that was the victim of a purse snatching could end up detained until they can prove their legal status even though they had no reason to be carrying ID or it was in that purse.

Hopefully you understand now.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Careful Obama, legal hispanics can vote and even they want illegals out.

Most people want illegals out. That's not the problem with this law.

To continue to harrass Arizona and supporters of this law would be to your own detriment

People giving up their freedoms should be harassed.

Some Hispanic Americans hope law deters illegal immigration

Some like the bill? Great. Some people are dumb..
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
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Because that's all opponents of enforcing the law have. There is no logical reason to support criminal activity.

Opponents have much more than proponents. Nobody is supporting criminal activity. Proponents are supporting giving up their freedom.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
You don't have to be driving.

Never said you did, just an example of lawful contact.



An out of state license will not work.
You also don't have to have committed a crime.

In most cases it will as something like 48 states do not issue ID to illegal immigrants. In the other cases the ID can be ran through the computer and if everything checks out there is no problem.

You also don't have to have committed a crime.

But you have to be involved with a crime.
No different than check for warrants.
Again, if you can provide proper ID you are fine.
If you do not have ID you are detained until your identity can be confirmed which happens everywhere now.





You don't have to be involved in a crime. A teenager asking for directions or someone walking that was the victim of a purse snatching could end up detained until they can prove their legal status even though they had no reason to be carrying ID or it was in that purse.

Um, if you don't have ID you can give your drivers license number, ID number, or even social security number and they can confirm your identity in the computers.

Fact of the matter is that you will be detained anyways if your identity cannot be confirmed. This applies to EVERYONE.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
If you think I'm wrong about something be specific.



Every person of AZ will have to have their papers on them now whenever they leave the house.

That is TOTALLY untrue. Your identity could be verified any number of ways without any documentation. This has been pointed out and explained to you over and over and over again yet you choose to ignore reality.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
What freedom is being given up?

there arent any

but when you have the President of the United States flapping his mouth against this law that the feds should be enforcing in the first place people tend to get on the hysteria train.
 
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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
If you think I'm wrong about something be specific.



Every person of AZ will have to have their papers on them now whenever they leave the house.

totally untrue.

like i said all aboard the hysteria train!!!
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
In most cases it will as something like 48 states do not issue ID to illegal immigrants. In the other cases the ID can be ran through the computer and if everything checks out there is no problem.

The truck driver with the CDL had to have his wife bring his birth certificate into the police station. His license may have even been in-state. Nowhere in the law does it say that an out of state license is sufficient.

Plus, unless you are driving you shouldn't need your drivers license.

But you have to be involved with a crime.

No, you do not have to be involved in a crime nor does there need to have been any crime.

The law says "any lawful contact". If they amended this to say what you think it says there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Um, if you don't have ID you can give your drivers license number, ID number, or even social security number and they can confirm your identity in the computers.

Please quote the part of the law that says this.

Fact of the matter is that you will be detained anyways if your identity cannot be confirmed. This applies to EVERYONE.

No, teenagers asking for directions or victims of purse snatchings are not normally able to be detained until they can prove their identity.