Are we there yet...

[blankslate]

Your argument basically comes down to we are standing on the edge of a roof of a burning building and have to jump for it. There is two places we can land, a pile of shit and a large airbag that is safe but ugly.

You are saying that because the airbag had a terrible paisley print we of course decided to fall into the pile of shit that might not even break our fall.

HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

Hillary made mistakes, no doubt. Mistakes that might have cost her the election against a normal candidate. None of those mistakes were even a tenth of what Trump made. None of them were so big that people should have decided that Trump was the better candidate. Trump talked about his penis during a national debate.

In the end I have to conclude that It did not matter if Hillary ran the perfect campaign. She was not going to win. Americans just decided they wanted the worst piece of trash they could find. Nothing was going to change that.

Two things might have won her the 2016 campaign just off the cuff.

1) a better VP pick than Tim Kaine. No it didn't have to be Bernie.

2) Actually seriously campaigning in those "firewall" states that she lost by merely 70k votes or so according to oft quoted numbers I hear.

Obviously we just disagree.

As for Trump he just was an effective liar he actually convinced quite a lot of people that he was against the TPP (he's not really) among other things.
Do I think people should have voted for Trump? No those who did who are not also hardline Republicans who will vote republican in any event got conned by a lying sack of human feces

It's just that I'm not the only one who thinks Hillary ran a

"scripted, soulless campaign"

https://www.mediaite.com/online/boo...t-blamed-hillarys-soulless-scripted-campaign/

when it became clear that Trump was going to win against public expectations, Obama was flabbergasted the country was going to “replace him with a buffoonish showman whose calling cards had been repeated bankruptcies, serial marriages, and racist dog whistles.” After Obama spoke to Clinton and told her to concede defeat, Baker says the former president and his team put the blame on her for running a “scripted, soulless campaign” that failed to turn his presidency into a winning message.

bold part of the quote my emphasis.




___________________

 

[SMOGZINN]

1) a better VP pick than Tim Kaine. No it didn't have to be Bernie.

I never even once heard anyone say that they would have voted for Hillary if it wasn't for her VP.
Tim Kaine might not have been the best choice of VP, but I honestly don't think that it made one bit of a difference. Remember she won the popular vote, people did vote for her.

2) Actually seriously campaigning in those "firewall" states that she lost by merely 70k votes or so according to oft quoted numbers I hear.

Then she might have lost other states and actually lost the popular vote. Campaigning in those places has an opportunity cost.

As for Trump he just was an effective liar he actually convinced quite a lot of people that he was against the TPP (he's not really) among other things.

There was nothing effective about Trump's lies. He just said random shit. It was not even cohesive most of the time. He just said words. His lies were, and still are, as transparent as you can get. No one in their right mind actually believes him. He is just about the least credible liar imaginable.

 

[blankslate]

Just face it when Hillary ran a "scripted, soulless campaign" (according to President Obama and his WH team) Trump didn't have to come up with the most artful well thought out lies at all.

She is as much to blame as anyone else and guess what President Obama agrees so if you don't like it don't take it up with me...


___________

 

[fskimospy]

Just face it when Hillary ran a "scripted, soulless campaign" (according to President Obama and his WH team) Trump didn't have to come up with the most artful well thought out lies at all.

She is as much to blame as anyone else and guess what President Obama agrees so if you don't like it don't take it up with me...


___________

I’ve never seen Obama say she’s as much to blame as anyone else for Trump. When did he say this?

You need to face facts - the people responsible for Trump are the people who voted for him.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Just face it when Hillary ran a "scripted, soulless campaign" (according to President Obama and his WH team) Trump didn't have to come up with the most artful well thought out lies at all.

She is as much to blame as anyone else and guess what President Obama agrees so if you don't like it don't take it up with me...

Sure, I often punch myself in the balls because someone was scripted and soulless. It is all their fault my balls hurt.

 

[blankslate]

Sure, I often punch myself in the balls because someone was scripted and soulless. It is all their fault my balls hurt.

your analogy is as bad as Trump's lies but do go on if you wish.

I’ve never seen Obama say she’s as much to blame as anyone else for Trump. When did he say this?

You need to face facts - the people responsible for Trump are the people who voted for him.

Actually I provided links in my posts if you don't wish to look then I can't force you can I.

But ok here.
https://www.mediaite.com/online/boo...t-blamed-hillarys-soulless-scripted-campaign/

After Obama spoke to Clinton and told her to concede defeat, Baker says the former president and his team put the blame on her for running a “scripted, soulless campaign” that failed to turn his presidency into a winning message.

and the CBS Los Angeles segment again...

I mean there's always a tiny chance that New York Times White House Correspondent Peter Baker is outright lying and if so then I'll know never to take him seriously again but unless and until that turns out to be the case

You need to face facts yourself...
A mere 70k votes each of those Firewall states that should have given Hillary the EC win would have gone her way if she ran a better campaign. You know actually campaigning in earnest in those states instead of just taking those voters for granted... etc. etc.

Hillary could have won if she more effectively countered his lies. but instead she ran a "scripted, soulless campaign" not my words those came from President Obama's camp soon after her loss


___________

 

[SMOGZINN]

your analogy is as bad as Trump's lies but do go on if you wish.

No, it is not that bad of an analogy. You are trying to claim that the people decide to vote for what is very probably the worst candidate we have had in the history of the United States, a candidate that literally bragged about his penis in a national debate, a candidate that was caught on tape bragging about 'grabbing them by the pussy' because no one could stop him, a candidate who claimed that Mexico is intentionally sending us their rapists, a candidate who said that McCain "was [not] a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.", a candidate that said of a reporter that questioned if he was a misogynist that there was 'blood coming out of her wherever', a candidate that was accused multiple times of sexual assault, a candidate that said during the campaign that a judge could not rule against him because he was of Mexican heritage, because the Democrat did not run a nearly perfect campaign.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

No, it is not that bad of an analogy. You are trying to claim that the people decide to vote for what is very probably the worst candidate we have had in the history of the United States, a candidate that literally bragged about his penis in a national debate, a candidate that was caught on tape bragging about 'grabbing them by the pussy' because no one could stop him, a candidate who claimed that Mexico is intentionally sending us their rapists, a candidate who said that McCain "was [not] a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.", a candidate that said of a reporter that questioned if he was a misogynist that there was 'blood coming out of her wherever', a candidate that was accused multiple times of sexual assault, a candidate that said during the campaign that a judge could not rule against him because he was of Mexican heritage, because the Democrat did not run a nearly perfect campaign.

I would rather vote for an actual rock, because inaction for four years is better than this.

 

[fskimospy]

your analogy is as bad as Trump's lies but do go on if you wish.





Actually I provided links in my posts if you don't wish to look then I can't force you can I.

But ok here.
https://www.mediaite.com/online/boo...t-blamed-hillarys-soulless-scripted-campaign/

and the CBS Los Angeles segment again...

I mean there's always a tiny chance that New York Times White House Correspondent Peter Baker is outright lying and if so then I'll know never to take him seriously again but unless and until that turns out to be the case

You need to face facts yourself...
A mere 70k votes each of those Firewall states that should have given Hillary the EC win would have gone her way if she ran a better campaign. You know actually campaigning in earnest in those states instead of just taking those voters for granted... etc. etc.

Hillary could have won if she more effectively countered his lies. but instead she ran a "scripted, soulless campaign" not my words those came from President Obama's camp soon after her loss


___________

No, I just think you’re reading way too much into it. It’s obvious that the responsibility for Trump is with his voters, otherwise he would have lost the election with zero votes. I would bet a great deal of money if you asked Obama if Clinton was more to blame than Trump’s voters he would agree with me.

You’re just not willing to face reality and you’re looking for excuses. I hope you’re able to own up to the facts and put the blame where it lies.

 

[fskimospy]

It always amazes me that Democrats are apparently the only people with agency in the United States because every time Republicans do something bad it’s never because they just chose a racist idiot for president, it’s always that the mean Democrats made them do it.

Sorry, people don’t get off that easy. Trump voters had a choice and they chose poorly. That’s their fault, not Clinton’s or anyone else’s.

 

[blankslate]

No, I just think you’re reading way too much into it. It’s obvious that the responsibility for Trump is with his voters, otherwise he would have lost the election with zero votes. I would bet a great deal of money if you asked Obama if Clinton was more to blame than Trump’s voters he would agree with me.

You’re just not willing to face reality and you’re looking for excuses. I hope you’re able to own up to the facts and put the blame where it lies.

Actually there is a large segment of voters who are not squarely in the Democratic or Republican camp

https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/

In Pew Research Center surveys conducted in 2017, 37% of registered voters identified as independents, 33% as Democrats and 26% as Republicans. When the partisan leanings of independents are taken into account, 50% either identify as Democrats or lean Democratic; 42% identify as Republicans or lean Republican.

in the 2016 election the advantage in lean Democratic over Republican was smaller

The 8-percentage-point Democratic advantage in leaned partisan identification is wider than at any point since 2009, and a statistically significant shift since 2016, when Democrats had a 4-point edge (48% to 44%).

Given that while in 2016 a large number of voters did lean one way or another there appears to be from the data the article was narrower than it currently is today (thanks to Trump being terrible) not all of them were solidly wedded to the party they leaned toward.

.And that is suggested by the 37% of voters who say they are independents even if they tend to lean on way or another strongly can be swayed to vote against the party they tend to lean toward by a great campaign campaign or by a "scripted, soulless campaign."

I hope you you are able to own up to the facts and realize that campaigns can and do affect some voters choices. But hey that might mean that you have to face reality

No, it is not that bad of an analogy. You are trying to claim that the people decide to vote for what is very probably the worst candidate we have had in the history of the United States, a candidate that literally bragged about his penis in a national debate, a candidate that was caught on tape bragging about 'grabbing them by the pussy' because no one could stop him, a candidate who claimed that Mexico is intentionally sending us their rapists, a candidate who said that McCain "was [not] a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.", a candidate that said of a reporter that questioned if he was a misogynist that there was 'blood coming out of her wherever', a candidate that was accused multiple times of sexual assault, a candidate that said during the campaign that a judge could not rule against him because he was of Mexican heritage, because the Democrat did not run a nearly perfect campaign.

if you need a run-on paragraph do explain why you are in denial about your terrible analogy well... you do you.

no use wasting more keyboard time on it at all it seems


____________

 

[fskimospy]

Actually there is a large segment of voters who are not squarely in the Democratic or Republican camp

https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/



in the 2016 election the advantage in lean Democratic over Republican was smaller


Given that while in 2016 a large number of voters did lean one way or another there appears to be from the data the article was narrower than it currently is today (thanks to Trump being terrible) not all of them were solidly wedded to the party they leaned toward.

.And that is suggested by the 37% of voters who say they are independents even if they tend to lean on way or another strongly that campaigns can sway a significant number of voters either by being great or by being a "scripted, soulless campaign."

I hope you you are able to own up to the facts and realize that campaigns can and do affect some voters choices. But hey that might mean that you have to face reality

if you need a run-on paragraph do explain why you are in denial about your terrible analogy well... you do you.

no use wasting more keyboard time on it at all it seems


____________

You are doing literally nothing to address my point. This is presumably because you have no answer to it. People have agency and they exercised it in 2016. Hillary Clinton didn’t make anyone vote for Trump, they did it of their own free will.

Stop making excuses for adults who made a conscious choice. Face reality and put the blame where it belongs.

 

[blankslate]

You are doing literally nothing to address my point. This is presumably because you have no answer to it. People have agency and they exercised it in 2016. Hillary Clinton didn’t make anyone vote for Trump, they did it of their own free will.

Stop making excuses for adults who made a conscious choice. Face reality and put the blame where it belongs.

You're just refusing to admit that I am addressing your points voters do chose who to vote for but if you're going to pretend they do it in a vacuum you're the one who needs to take your own advice.


___________

 

[fskimospy]

You're just refusing to admit that I am addressing your points voters do chose who to vote for but if you're going to pretend they do it in a vacuum you're the one who needs to take your own advice.


___________

Who said anything about doing it in a vacuum? You’re just making excuses for people.

 

[blankslate]

Who said anything about doing it in a vacuum? You’re just making excuses for people.

No you're just refusing to acknowledge that some voters choose based on the campaign (while some are firmly in one camp or another) and you're just refusing to acknowledge that Hillary's "scripted, soulless campaign" may have had an effect on swing voters. You're making an excuse Hillary's campaign and engaging in projection.


_____________

 

[fskimospy]

No you're just refusing to acknowledge that some voters choose based on the campaign (while some are firmly in one camp or another) and you're just refusing to acknowledge that Hillary's "scripted, soulless campaign" may have had an effect on swing voters. You're making an excuse Hillary's campaign and engaging in projection.


_____________

Huh? Where did I ever say Clinton’s campaign had no effect on voters? Where on earth are you getting this nonsense?

I think you have your back up now and will never admit to being wrong so I’ll just end it here. I hope someday you’re able to see clearly enough to hold people accountable for their choices.

 

[ivwshane]

No you're just refusing to acknowledge that some voters choose based on the campaign (while some are firmly in one camp or another) and you're just refusing to acknowledge that Hillary's "scripted, soulless campaign" may have had an effect on swing voters. You're making an excuse Hillary's campaign and engaging in projection.


_____________

And you are engaging in thread derailing. Clinton lost, regardless of the reasons, get over it.

 

[SMOGZINN]

No you're just refusing to acknowledge that some voters choose based on the campaign (while some are firmly in one camp or another) and you're just refusing to acknowledge that Hillary's "scripted, soulless campaign" may have had an effect on swing voters. You're making an excuse Hillary's campaign and engaging in projection.

What about all the things I pointed out about Trumps campaign. Why do you think that a 'scripted, soulless campaign' is worse than everything I posted? Why do you keep ignoring the train wreck that was Trumps campaign? That is my argument. That Trump ran such a bad campaign that a 'scripted, soulless campaign' should still have won hands down. Something besides that happened.

 

[blankslate]

Huh? Where did I ever say Clinton’s campaign had no effect on voters? Where on earth are you getting this nonsense?

I think you have your back up now and will never admit to being wrong so I’ll just end it here. I hope someday you’re able to see clearly enough to hold people accountable for their choices.

VVV that is what I have been responding to...

I’ve never seen Obama say she’s as much to blame as anyone else for Trump. When did he say this?

I've given you the source for my assertion then you say voters are responsible for their choices fine... my assertion is that some voters are more influenced by campaigns by other and if someone didn't campaign very well then they also have a share of the responsibility for how some voters voted.

President Obama blamed Hillary's campaign... I didn't say he blamed her exclusively.


_______________

 

[dank69]

VVV that is what I have been responding to...



I've given you the source for my assertion then you say voters are responsible for their choices fine... my assertion is that some voters are more influenced by campaigns by other and if someone didn't campaign very well then they also have a share of the responsibility for how some voters voted.

President Obama blamed Hillary's campaign... I didn't say he blamed her exclusively.


_______________

The key words you miss in all this are "as much."

 

[blankslate]

The key words you miss in all this are "as much."

Trump is an idiot and it shouldn't have been close...

but sure most people don't blame Hillary as much as Trump.

Going off of the story about the revised Biography President Obama's camp does put a lot of blame on her from what the reporter said in the video I'll just have to read the revised edition I guess to see how much and if they exaggerated for story effect on CBS Los Angeles


_________

 

[Moonbeam]

You are doing literally nothing to address my point. This is presumably because you have no answer to it. People have agency and they exercised it in 2016. Hillary Clinton didn’t make anyone vote for Trump, they did it of their own free will.

Stop making excuses for adults who made a conscious choice. Face reality and put the blame where it belongs.

Sorry, but you are just like conservatives with their personal responsibility bull shit. The concept of agency is there for only one reason, to provide justification for hatred and blame. You fail to realize that humanity is asleep and that sleep includes you. Nobody is to blame for anything which is why Jesus came to tell us we have been forgiven. Humanity has yet to escape the days of the Old Testament.

The fact that the liberal brain can better separate decision making from emotional irrational fear does not mean that fear and the inevitable hatred it produces isn't still there, perhaps even more deeply hidden from conscious awareness.

 

[blankslate]

I can't think of anyone who has ever said that any criticism of Clinton is forbidden.

that is HIILLARYARIOUS because you and the other shills sure act as if that is the case....

You're just so blinded by your lizard brain reaction to the disaster of the 2016 EC results to realize it.



_______________

 

[fskimospy]

that is HIILLARYARIOUS because you and the other shills sure act as if that is the case....

You're just so blinded by your lizard brain reaction to the disaster of the 2016 EC results to realize it.



_______________

Well if I say criticism of her is forbidden then by all means quote me. Of course you won’t be able to do that because what you’re really doing is making things up now to justify whatever emotional need you have to be right.

Someday I hope you are able to face reality and hold people accountable for their actions. Doesn’t seem like it’s going to be soon though, haha.

 

[blankslate]

Well if I say criticism of her is forbidden then by all means quote me. Of course you won’t be able to do that because what you’re really doing is making things up now to justify whatever emotional need you have to be right.

Someday I hope you are able to face reality and hold people accountable for their actions. Doesn’t seem like it’s going to be soon though, haha.

I'm just going off of the reaction to my post with sources that people in a recent Democratic President's Administration largely agree with my opinion that while Hillary would definitely have been preferably she lost in large part because she ran a shite campaing or in other words a "scripted, soulless campaign” ....

a few came out of the woodwork to disagree with my post without really disputing my source... I even granted the possibility that the author of the updated biography may be lying.

demonstrate that the sources I cited for one of my earliest posts in this thread is citing an outright liar of a person who would throw away his position as "New York Times White House Correspondent " and you'll get a mea culpa apology from me.

until then your words are empty and your recent posts in reply to mine are just about as bad as the other guys... which is not a very auspicious indication of the state of current political discourse because I think that on the issues as cited here

Most Americans Are Liberal, Even If They Don’t Know It

we would in most cases agree.

_______