Are we there yet...

[realibrad]

And ignored for the fourth time. Keep it up quibbles!

I don't understand. You asked for proof we were not in a fascist state, and I gave you the answer. What question am I missing?

 

[ivwshane]

I don't understand. You asked for proof we were not in a fascist state, and I gave you the answer. What question am I missing?

No I asked you for specific instances which described the processes you said were the reason we aren't there yet. You have yet to describe one.

 

[realibrad]

No I asked you for specific instances which described the processes you said were the reason we aren't there yet. You have yet to describe one.

I went back through, and I think this is what you are referring to.

"As to defeating fascism, your way works before fascism has arrived. Show me a single discussion that was thoughtful and gave the public a clear understanding of the issue that has allowed the public to not only vote on what they think it's best but then have government implement this policies."

First, we do not vote for things at the federal level, we vote for people. At the state level, we vote for things. That is much easier to show.

Gay marriage was once unpopular in every state. As people came to know more and more gays, their views changed. Then, a few states decided after many other debates to put it to a vote to allow for gay marriage and it passed.

So, you had individual people debating, as well as courts debating. Both lead to a reversal of previous laws that the state enforced. Not only was the vote done, passed, but has been enforced when people try and say they do not want to do it.

 

[Ventanni]

I don't believe we live in a world where we are on the path to a fascist state. I do believe, however, that we live in a world where people need to put the devices down more often and remember that the sun is still rising, the birds are still chirping, and the most important thing on your neighbor's mind is mowing his lawn. I mean, I distinctly remember when Obama was in office how some of my conservative friends and family members actually thought this nation was going to hell and a hand basket. And it's funny 'cause now that Trump is in office, many of my more liberal minded friends and family members think this nation is going to hell and a hand basket.

So we're going to break out "Ventanni's Guide To Not Having an Emotional/Mental/Spiritual Breakdown Because of Who Occupies the Presidency"

• Local politics have 1000x more impact on your daily life than what happens in Washington DC. If you don't vote local, then don't bitch about the presidency. Period.
  
• Term limits. Yay. American presidents have them. Remember that.
• You create the world you put in front of you. Social media and entertainment-oriented media sites like Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc will feed you content based on what you like. Meaning, you will create your own "world" where it may seem like the the United States is about to become some "insert doomsday scenario here", but it's really not.
  
• Remember when we were young and our mom's would yell at us to go outside and play if we were playing too many video games? Yeah, keep doing that. Keep going outside. It's good for you.
• Don't act like a victim. We live in the United States: The wealthiest, the most powerful, the most capable, with the best educational institutions, the best workforce, and the best place to do business in history. Hell, we didn't just go to the moon, we went to Pluto! This is a dang good place to raise a child. So the next time the US looks like "trash" in your mind, there are 1,000,000 others in this world that see it as gold, and would happily trade your place.

Fascist state my ass.

 

[realibrad]

I don't believe we live in a world where we are on the path to a fascist state. I do believe, however, that we live in a world where people need to put the devices down more often and remember that the sun is still rising, the birds are still chirping, and the most important thing on your neighbor's mind is mowing his lawn. I mean, I distinctly remember when Obama was in office how some of my conservative friends and family members actually thought this nation was going to hell and a hand basket. And it's funny 'cause now that Trump is in office, many of my more liberal minded friends and family members think this nation is going to hell and a hand basket.

So we're going to break out "Ventanni's Guide To Not Having an Emotional/Mental/Spiritual Breakdown Because of Who Occupies the Presidency"

• Local politics have 1000x more impact on your daily life than what happens in Washington DC. If you don't vote local, then don't bitch about the presidency. Period.
  
• Term limits. Yay. American presidents have them. Remember that.
• You create the world you put in front of you. Social media and entertainment-oriented media sites like Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc will feed you content based on what you like. Meaning, you will create your own "world" where it may seem like the the United States is about to become some "insert doomsday scenario here", but it's really not.
  
• Remember when we were young and our mom's would yell at us to go outside and play if we were playing too many video games? Yeah, keep doing that. Keep going outside. It's good for you.
• Don't act like a victim. We live in the United States: The wealthiest, the most powerful, the most capable, with the best educational institutions, the best workforce, and the best place to do business in history. Hell, we didn't just go to the moon, we went to Pluto! This is a dang good place to raise a child. So the next time the US looks like "trash" in your mind, there are 1,000,000 others in this world that see it as gold, and would happily trade your place.

Fascist state my ass.

I agree that we are not there, but, to say we are not on the path is wrong. We are always on the path as its human nature to have that as a possibility when we let parts of our instinct take over. We are not immune to fascism and should never become complacent about it. You seem to think that we are safe from ourselves and we are not.

 

[ivwshane]

I went back through, and I think this is what you are referring to.

"As to defeating fascism, your way works before fascism has arrived. Show me a single discussion that was thoughtful and gave the public a clear understanding of the issue that has allowed the public to not only vote on what they think it's best but then have government implement this policies."

First, we do not vote for things at the federal level, we vote for people. At the state level, we vote for things. That is much easier to show.

No shit quibbles the quibbler.

Gay marriage was once unpopular in every state. As people came to know more and more gays, their views changed. Then, a few states decided after many other debates to put it to a vote to allow for gay marriage and it passed.

So, you had individual people debating, as well as courts debating. Both lead to a reversal of previous laws that the state enforced. Not only was the vote done, passed, but has been enforced when people try and say they do not want to do it.

Lol so you've got nothing but things from the last president? Congrats on making my point.

 

[realibrad]

Lol so you've got nothing but things from the last president? Congrats on making my point.

Wait, what does that have to do with anything? Now who is the quibbler?

Fine, if you want something from less than 2 years ago, legalized weed in Nevada Nov 8 2016 after the election of Trump.

So, are you going to answer my questions from my posts now?

 

[ivwshane]

Wait, what does that have to do with anything? Now who is the quibbler?

Fine, if you want something from less than 2 years ago, legalized weed in Nevada Nov 8 2016 after the election of Trump.

So, are you going to answer my questions from my posts now?

God damn you are fucking dumb! We just had a conversation and we agreed that Obama wasn't a fascist, what we are discussing is whether or not UNDER trump, you stupid fuck, whether or not we have crossed the line! Why the fuck would examples from a past presidency matter to this discussion?

Don't bother answering, quibbles, your tired schtick is old. Fuck off!

 

[realibrad]

God damn you are fucking dumb! We just had a conversation and we agreed that Obama wasn't a fascist, what we are discussing is whether or not UNDER trump, you stupid fuck, whether or not we have crossed the line! Why the fuck would examples from a past presidency matter to this discussion?

Don't bother answering, quibbles, your tired schtick is old. Fuck off!

You said this...

"As to defeating fascism, your way works before fascism has arrived. Show me a single discussion that was thoughtful and gave the public a clear understanding of the issue that has allowed the public to not only vote on what they think it's best but then have government implement this policies."

I answered with gay marriage and legalized weed. You wanted a discussion that changed the public's mid and it then made it into law and I gave it to you. Enjoy.

 

[Ventanni]

I agree that we are not there, but, to say we are not on the path is wrong. We are always on the path as its human nature to have that as a possibility when we let parts of our instinct take over. We are not immune to fascism and should never become complacent about it. You seem to think that we are safe from ourselves and we are not.

I agree with you that it's not impossible for it to happen to us. Totally onboard with you there. What I'm saying though is that our fears are largely exacerbated and exaggerated by our constant exposure to the media of our choosing. I realize that all news sources have some type of slant (that's unavoidable), but when paired with entertainment mediums like YouTube and Facebook, those mediums will feed content based on what you like. This creates a positive feedback loop of conviction because those ideas are constantly being reinforced with more content of the same type. It's completely spectrum agnostic and happens to anyone regardless of their political beliefs.

That's where I say this: The greatest threat to our country is not Trump. It's not Kavanaugh. It certainly wasn't Obama. I hear whispers of this idea of a second American civil war, and it's the people who actually believe that; that's the greatest threat to this country. People become so passionate and so worked up because of this positive feedback loop that they will start to enter this idea of the plausibility of war, and that's super dangerous. That's when the buck stops, and that's why I'm so, like, "Dude, put the phone down and enjoy some fresh air."

So I'll end with this. I don't want to be that generation that historians look back at 500 years from now and are like, "You had it all: Wealth, power, access, freedom of information, freedom of movement, freedom to attain anything you wanted! Rome had nothing on you guys. But you threw it all away because you lacked the maturity to handle it all."

That could be us.

 

[mikeymikec]

So I'll end with this. I don't want to be that generation that historians look back at 500 years from now and are like, "You had it all: Wealth, power, access, freedom of information, freedom of movement, freedom to attain anything you wanted! Rome had nothing on you guys. But you threw it all away because you lacked the maturity to handle it all."

There's a book that you might find to be an interesting read called, 'Darkness at Noon', as it made some interesting points about the maturity and understanding of people in a given society to understand the model of that society and interact with it effectively, and by the time most people might be able to catch up with a given model, other factors (such as technological advancement) change the model and the people lose ground while going through various stages of attempting to understand the newer model (such as distrust) all over again.

Ghost in the Shell Season 2 also digs into this topic a bit.

 

[realibrad]

I agree with you that it's not impossible for it to happen to us. Totally onboard with you there. What I'm saying though is that our fears are largely exacerbated and exaggerated by our constant exposure to the media of our choosing. I realize that all news sources have some type of slant (that's unavoidable), but when paired with entertainment mediums like YouTube and Facebook, those mediums will feed content based on what you like. This creates a positive feedback loop of conviction because those ideas are constantly being reinforced with more content of the same type. It's completely spectrum agnostic and happens to anyone regardless of their political beliefs.

That's where I say this: The greatest threat to our country is not Trump. It's not Kavanaugh. It certainly wasn't Obama. I hear whispers of this idea of a second American civil war, and it's the people who actually believe that; that's the greatest threat to this country. People become so passionate and so worked up because of this positive feedback loop that they will start to enter this idea of the plausibility of war, and that's super dangerous. That's when the buck stops, and that's why I'm so, like, "Dude, put the phone down and enjoy some fresh air."

So I'll end with this. I don't want to be that generation that historians look back at 500 years from now and are like, "You had it all: Wealth, power, access, freedom of information, freedom of movement, freedom to attain anything you wanted! Rome had nothing on you guys. But you threw it all away because you lacked the maturity to handle it all."

That could be us.

I think I agree with all of that.

 

[mikeymikec]

Re: the original topic, is the US descending into fascism.

This clip is from a British political comedy (from the 70s I think) regarding the nuclear threat:

Kind of like the nuclear threat, fascism is one that (unless a society acts in an extremely stupid manner, possibly fuelled by extreme fear) should be ever-changing, ever-evolving. Wannabe fascists with the influence to bring fascism about are going to have studied the origins of other fascist regimes. Just like how in that clip the Russians weren't going to put any nuclear nation in the position of 'no choice but to fire', wannabe fascists are not going to do anything terribly cliche in the early stages of their plan, because even their supporters are likely to say "hold on, those black uniforms and that red, black and white logo looks familiar....".

The 'slippery slope' argument is relevant here as well: Take for example the topic of euthanasia. A plan to implement euthanasia on any level into a country's care model in the hands of someone who sees old people as a useless burden would justifiably be extremely worrying, however in the hands of someone who sees value in the older generations and who goes out of their way to enshrine certain safeguarding principles into the basics of their plan is an entirely different situation. Those who see Donald Trump and his ilk as a threat are more likely to subscribe to the 'slippery slope' argument.

IMO a country's descent into fascism can only be charted with certainty in hindsight: It's not the potential abuse of power, it's what you do with it. Kavanaugh might be a typical conservative SC judge, and his nomination might be to provide the GOP a more conservative-leaning set of SC judges to helpfully interpret the constitution in the GOP's favour. On the other hand, in a few years' time the Democrats get the upper hand and due to some fortunate timing they end up successfully placing new judge(s) and to the perception of many are correcting the balance.

A dangerous element to consider with regard to the potential rise of fascism is that wannabe fascists will test that country's defences (laws, the response of the public and politicians) in seemingly innocuous ways (at least to their supporters). To those who lean more in the fascist's direction (without knowing their guy is a fascist), they'll see those who oppose the fascist as being alarmist and fearmongering.

Donald Trump could be the next famous fascist. There's plenty of basic evidence in favour of that possibility, such as his attacks on just about every American government department and the free press, his subscription and invention of conspiracy theories, and his tendency to attack anyone whom he considers not to be 100% "on his side", even in his own party. He also has engaged in nepotism, which any unbiased person is able to acknowledge is not conducive to a situation where the most talented and qualified person is employed to do a job.

Alternatively, Trump could just be an extremely childish individual, and his ultimate ambition may not be to become a fascist dictator. He could unintentionally become that by having insufficient insight into his role in American society combined with those around him enabling his most destructive tendencies, and his supporters turning a blind eye to his behaviour.

 

[ivwshane]

Its not just me sounding the alarms.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/5/17940610/trump-hitler-history-historian

If the US has someone whom historians will look back on as the gravedigger of American democracy, it is Mitch McConnell. He stoked the hyperpolarization of American politics to make the Obama presidency as dysfunctional and paralyzed as he possibly could. As with parliamentary gridlock in Weimar, congressional gridlock in the US has diminished respect for democratic norms, allowing McConnell to trample them even more. Nowhere is this vicious circle clearer than in the obliteration of traditional precedents concerning judicial appointments. Systematic obstruction of nominations in Obama’s first term provoked Democrats to scrap the filibuster for all but Supreme Court nominations. Then McConnell’s unprecedented blocking of the Merrick Garland nomination required him in turn to scrap the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations in order to complete the “steal” of Antonin Scalia’s seat and confirm Neil Gorsuch. The extreme politicization of the judicial nomination process is once again on display in the current Kavanaugh hearings. ...

Whatever secret reservations McConnell and other traditional Republican leaders have about Trump’s character, governing style, and possible criminality, they openly rejoice in the payoff they have received from their alliance with him and his base: huge tax cuts for the wealthy, financial and environmental deregulation, the nominations of two conservative Supreme Court justices (so far) and a host of other conservative judicial appointments, and a significant reduction in government-sponsored health care (though not yet the total abolition of Obamacare they hope for). Like Hitler’s conservative allies, McConnell and the Republicans have prided themselves on the early returns on their investment in Trump.

This is the key point that people often miss when talking about Hitler’s rise. The breakdown of German democracy started well before Hitler: Hyperpolarization led Hindenburg to strip away constraints on executive power as well as conclude that his left-wing opponents were a greater threat than fascism. The result, then, was a degradation of the everyday practice of democracy, to the point where the system was vulnerable to a Hitler-style figure.

Now, as Browning points out, “Trump is not Hitler and Trumpism is not Nazism.” The biggest and most important difference is that Hitler was an open and ideological opponent of the idea of democracy, whereas neither Trump nor the GOP wants to abolish elections.

What Browning worries about, instead, is a slow and quiet breakdown of American democracy — something more much like what you see in modern failed democracies like Turkey. Browning worries that Republicans have grown comfortable enough manipulating the rules of the democratic game to their advantage, with things like voter ID laws and gerrymandering, that they might go even further even after Trump is gone:

 

[realibrad]

Its not just me sounding the alarms.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/5/17940610/trump-hitler-history-historian

I think you miss something very import.

"This is the key point that people often miss when talking about Hitler’s rise. The breakdown of German democracy started well before Hitler: Hyperpolarization led Hindenburg to strip away constraints on executive power as well as conclude that his left-wing opponents were a greater threat than fascism. The result, then, was a degradation of the everyday practice of democracy, to the point where the system was vulnerable to a Hitler-style figure."

If you read that carefully, you get the point that I think he was making that you miss. He is saying that the Hyperpolarization lead to the executive power to stop its opponents. In Germany's case, it was the Right stopping the Left, but, its not inherent to that type of situation. You could sum it up as people called on the government to stop the opposition. What ended up happening is that the Left was in power and thus blamed for the situation Germany was in. So when a counter-movement came, people will willing to throw them out because they were running on emotion rather than logic.

This is where the argument against Trump becomes more valid. Trump came in, and many Rs came in because people were angry and blamed the Left. That said, at this point both sides are so angry that they appear willing to use the state to attack the opposition. That is the path to fascism I most worry about. If any side wins in a big way in this environment, they would have a huge incentive to punish the opposition.

 

[ivwshane]

/facepalm

 

[soundforbjt]

We're one step closer with Kavanaugh on the SC.

 

[ivwshane]

I'm bumping this thread as I think we have crossed the threshold of a constitutional crisis.

We now have an AG working for the president and lying on behalf of the president and not working on behalf of the people and the rule of law.

We now have a president actively telling people in his admin to ignore congressional oversight and they are doing just that.

We have a president that is appointing people based solely on who will do the president's bidding and not who's best for the position and the country.

Not only that but we have a political party who is completely unwilling to do it's constitutional duty and who are allowing obstruction by a different branch.

The slide, to me, into fascism certainly seems to have started. If kavenaugh does indeed politicize the supreme court (especially if Congress goes to court in order to hold the trump administration accountable) then I don't see how anyone could say otherwise.

 

[soundforbjt]

I'm bumping this thread as I think we have crossed the threshold of a constitutional crisis.

We now have an AG working for the president and lying on behalf of the president and not working on behalf of the people and the rule of law.

We now have a president actively telling people in his admin to ignore congressional oversight and they are doing just that.

We have a president that is appointing people based solely on who will do the president's bidding and not who's best for the position and the country.

Not only that but we have a political party who is completely unwilling to do it's constitutional duty and who are allowing obstruction by a different branch.

The slide, to me, into fascism certainly seems to have started. If kavenaugh does indeed politicize the supreme court (especially if Congress goes to court in order to hold the trump administration accountable) then I don't see how anyone could say otherwise.

Bill Maher may have been right when he said this is a slow-motion coup.

 

[ivwshane]

Bill Maher may have been right when he said this is a slow-motion coup.

In my OP I said that this would happen slowly and it certainly seems like trump's actions continue to be normalized.

Hell, even as I type this the white house just sent a letter to Congress that says the administration has the right to ignore oversight by Congress.

 

[soundforbjt]

In my OP I said that this would happen slowly and it certainly seems like trump's actions continue to be normalized.

Hell, even as I type this the white house just sent a letter to Congress that says the administration has the right to ignore oversight by Congress.

Kellyanne Conway violated the Hatch Act twice in the last two days, on camera to the press and since she answers to Trump nothing will happen, not even a verbal warning.

 

[woolfe9998]

Agreed. The situation looks grim. We could take solace in next year's election, but that will really bring things to a head when Trump loses and refuses to step down.

The only thing I can think of is that the SCOTUS will probably not side with Trump in a Constitutional crisis. Roberts seems to flip left when he thinks doing otherwise will damage conservatism in the long run. If RBG passes away some time in the next 18 months, then we're in real trouble.

 

[ivwshane]

Agreed. The situation looks grim. We could take solace in next year's election, but that will really bring things to a head when Trump loses and refuses to step down.

The only thing I can think of is that the SCOTUS will probably not side with Trump in a Constitutional crisis. Roberts seems to flip left when he thinks doing otherwise will damage conservatism in the long run. If RBG passes away some time in the next 18 months, then we're in real trouble.

"RGB don't die!!!" doesn't seem like a good failsafe to me

 

[sandorski]

Agreed. The situation looks grim. We could take solace in next year's election, but that will really bring things to a head when Trump loses and refuses to step down.

The only thing I can think of is that the SCOTUS will probably not side with Trump in a Constitutional crisis. Roberts seems to flip left when he thinks doing otherwise will damage conservatism in the long run. If RBG passes away some time in the next 18 months, then we're in real trouble.

If Trump wins, you are really screwed.

 

[soundforbjt]

Agreed. The situation looks grim. We could take solace in next year's election, but that will really bring things to a head when Trump loses and refuses to step down.

The only thing I can think of is that the SCOTUS will probably not side with Trump in a Constitutional crisis. Roberts seems to flip left when he thinks doing otherwise will damage conservatism in the long run. If RBG passes away some time in the next 18 months, then we're in real trouble.

I actually believe if RGB dies, we could see a possible riot in the streets in DC.