Are we there yet...

[realibrad]

By whom?

There are multiple ways to be caught.

What are you wanting to get to, and lets just get to it.

 

[ivwshane]

There are multiple ways to be caught.

What are you wanting to get to, and lets just get to it.

Kavanagh goes to the supreme court, charges are filed against trump, trumps reactions are then challenged and sent to the supreme court where a decisive fifth vote by Kavanagh gives the president the power he needs to stay "clean".

So who is going to "catch" trump?

 

[ivwshane]

Here is some more history, this time the story hits a little closer to home.

http://time.com/5414055/american-nazi-sympathy-book/

"They weren’t trying to push the U.S. into an alliance with Nazi Germany. They see that as outlandish, though they would have loved it. What they want to do is confuse American public opinion. That’s what we’re seeing coming back in the era of social media,” he explains. “Confusion means there’s no public will to do anything and in a democracy we rely on the public will to take action.”

But perhaps the biggest reason why it’s possible for the U.S. to have forgotten about this history is that its worst potential — a sympathetic politician reaching the highest levels of power on an isolationist platform — was never realized.

“The real threat here, which the U.S. was fortunate to avoid, was a figure like Charles Lindbergh managing to bring all these groups together in time for an election,” Hart says. “The timing just never really worked out for that, fortunately.”

Tell me again how we aren't on our way.

 

[realibrad]

Kavanagh goes to the supreme court, charges are filed against trump, trumps reactions are then challenged and sent to the supreme court where a decisive fifth vote by Kavanagh gives the president the power he needs to stay "clean".

So who is going to "catch" trump?

I want you to realize something.

Trump has the power to stop the investigation into himself.

So, why does Trump not stop the investigation? The old argument is that it would be very bad politically. That is to say, the person that does that would lose their political support.

Your position is that Trump could have charges brought, and invoke executive privilege, to which his party would support him and thus not impeach him. If Trump does not have to worry about his party support, then why not end the investigation now?

 

[ivwshane]

I want you to realize something.

Trump has the power to stop the investigation into himself.

So, why does Trump not stop the investigation? The old argument is that it would be very bad politically. That is to say, the person that does that would lose their political support.

Your position is that Trump could have charges brought, and invoke executive privilege, to which his party would support him and thus not impeach him. If Trump does not have to worry about his party support, then why not end the investigation now?

If you can explain trumps actions then I suggest you stop wasting your time on this forum and get a job in the media to help them and everyone else figure him out.

However I suspect trump knows what he is doing and knows how to gradually lower the bar to what the new normal is because people like you seemingly go along with it every step of the way.

 

[realibrad]

Here is some more history, this time the story hits a little closer to home.

http://time.com/5414055/american-nazi-sympathy-book/





Tell me again how we aren't on our way.

The very tool used to stop fascism is the same tool under attack by those that want to prevent fascism.

Fascism can be thought of as the will of the very few over the will of the many. The reason for the confusion is that people have different beliefs and there is no rule on consensus. Fascism establishes consensus through the sate and does away with public discourse. What people are now calling for, is a consensus against fascism and wanting to prevent public discourse. The irony is that there are people out there wanting to use the tools of fascism to prevent fascism which ultimately brings fascism.

The way to prevent fascism is through discourse and let society choose the best ideas while leaving room for changing and or growing.

 

[soundforbjt]

Then again, who gets onto the court has no importance, as Pence would have the power to pardon Trump regardless.

You fail to understand...If the President's pardon power is increased (by a Kavanaugh vote) to include State as well as Federal and Trump is impeached, Pence could shield him from State as well as Federal with a pardon. As it stands now, Trump would be liable for State charges if impeached and Pence pardoned him. Hope that's clear enough for you.

 

[realibrad]

However I suspect trump knows what he is doing and knows how to gradually lower the bar to what the new normal is because people like you seemingly go along with it every step of the way.

I think you are right about the first part. Sadly, the 2nd part is why you risk losing again to Trump. No matter how many times I say Trump is bad, you still think I tacitly support Trump by not fighting everything.

Trump won in large part due to people acting on emotion and not thinking. What you want me to do is the same but against him.

 

[realibrad]

You fail to understand...If the President's pardon power is increased (by a Kavanaugh vote) to include State as well as Federal and Trump is impeached, Pence could shield him from State as well as Federal with a pardon. As it stands now, Trump would be liable for State charges if impeached and Pence pardoned him. Hope that's clear enough for you.

Not every state is R so I presume that one of them would bring charges.

 

[soundforbjt]

Not every state is R so I presume that one of them would bring charges.

What would that have to do with it? If the Pardon power extends to State charges what difference does the State's political leaning have to do with it?

 

[ivwshane]

The very tool used to stop fascism is the same tool under attack by those that want to prevent fascism.

Fascism can be thought of as the will of the very few over the will of the many. The reason for the confusion is that people have different beliefs and there is no rule on consensus. Fascism establishes consensus through the sate and does away with public discourse. What people are now calling for, is a consensus against fascism and wanting to prevent public discourse. The irony is that there are people out there wanting to use the tools of fascism to prevent fascism which ultimately brings fascism.

The way to prevent fascism is through discourse and let society choose the best ideas while leaving room for changing and or growing.

History says you are wrong. Hitler was elected, Mussolini was elected, edrogan was elected, duerte was elected.

Second, yes fascism was facilitated through the state in which norms and institutions are doing away with public discourse. The Republican party as a matter of fact, while in government has:
Politicized institutions from the IRS, CBO, FBI, EPA, and the supreme court.
They have actively undermined thoughtful discourse around policies that involve science by banning certain language (EPA), denying climate change as a liberal/Chinese hoax, forcing the CBO to use ridiculous assumptions in its calculations.
They have also managed to make Washington so partisan than compromise is now a dirty word.

As to defeating fascism, your way works before fascism has arrived. Show me a single discussion that was thoughtful and gave the public a clear understanding of the issue that has allowed the public to not only vote on what they think it's best but then have government implement this policies.

How long should I wait for an example?

 

[realibrad]

What would that have to do with it? If the Pardon power extends to State charges what difference does the State's political leaning have to do with it?

As far as I know, its still not understood if Gamble would allow for a pardon of state crimes. That is still a reach.

But again, given you think Trump does not have to worry about losing support, why not just kill the investigation now?

 

[Stokely]

I think we are not quite there to a point where the GOP can act with impunity. If we get to such a place, it might end up being a long slow burn where the "new normal" becomes accepted over a period of years. Then again, as someone said, if you can predict Trump's course of action then you should be making a fortune in Vegas, because you have a gift.

Take the Patriot Act. We sacrificed some portion of our freedom in the "name of Security" (how that phrase should frighten anyone). Who even thinks about the Patriot Act anymore? Granted, it's been amended and tinkered with, but it was a huge issue at one point. It has become the new normal.

All that said, I believe Trump in an instant would end the investigation, and the only reason he doesn't are his handlers advising him against it. We have already seen one of his lawyers quit over Trump refusing to listen, we know the entire WH staff has to hand-feed info to this giant child. At some point I think he'll just say screw it and end it, but again who knows with him?

 

[realibrad]

History says you are wrong. Hitler was elected, Mussolini was elected, edrogan was elected, duerte was elected.

Second, yes fascism was facilitated through the state in which norms and institutions are doing away with public discourse. The Republican party as a matter of fact, while in government has:
Politicized institutions from the IRS, CBO, FBI, EPA, and the supreme court.
They have actively undermined thoughtful discourse around policies that involve science by banning certain language (EPA), denying climate change as a liberal/Chinese hoax, forcing the CBO to use ridiculous assumptions in its calculations.
They have also managed to make Washington so partisan than compromise is now a dirty word.

As to defeating fascism, your way works before fascism has arrived. Show me a single discussion that was thoughtful and gave the public a clear understanding of the issue that has allowed the public to not only vote on what they think it's best but then have government implement this policies.

How long should I wait for an example?

Hitler was not elected. Mussolini was not elected really. He used force to make people vote for him, which makes it rigged.

Absolutely the institutions have been politicized. I brought up the EPA thing in a thread recently against someone. Its a bad move.

But, do not lay all the issues with partisan compromise at the feet of the Rs. They might do it the most, and be the best at it, but, politics is about doing just that.

If fascism actually happens, then we can think about using force. As I said earlier, we are not there yet. Using force brings about the very worst in humanity, and, the effects last for generations. I don't think you or others understand how bad those effects are. Realize that Hitler never would have come about had WWI not been as bad as it was. Again, the very tool that people like you want to use is what lead to Hitler.

Have you ever played FFX? Think of that story if you have.

 

[ivwshane]

Hitler was not elected. Mussolini was not elected really. He used force to make people vote for him, which makes it rigged.

Absolutely the institutions have been politicized. I brought up the EPA thing in a thread recently against someone. Its a bad move.

But, do not lay all the issues with partisan compromise at the feet of the Rs. They might do it the most, and be the best at it, but, politics is about doing just that.

If fascism actually happens, then we can think about using force. As I said earlier, we are not there yet. Using force brings about the very worst in humanity, and, the effects last for generations. I don't think you or others understand how bad those effects are. Realize that Hitler never would have come about had WWI not been as bad as it was. Again, the very tool that people like you want to use is what lead to Hitler.

Have you ever played FFX? Think of that story if you have.

The tool I want to use? Wtf are you talking about?

Yes, Hitler wasn't elected, the Nazi party, however was. Once the violence starts, its already over. You are free to wait until the killing begins, I prefer to prevent it from happening altogether. You can play the role of Franz von papen and believe that trump can be kept in check but I'll continue sounding the alarm bells because history repeats itself.

 

[realibrad]

The tool I want to use? Wtf are you talking about?

Yes, Hitler wasn't elected, the Nazi party, however was. Once the violence starts, its already over. You are free to wait until the killing begins, I prefer to prevent it from happening altogether. You can play the role of Franz von papen and believe that trump can be kept in check but I'll continue sounding the alarm bells because history repeats itself.

Okay, if not discourse, what tool do you want to use to prevent fascism?

 

[ivwshane]

Okay, if not discourse, what tool do you want to use to prevent fascism?

You appear to be having trouble comprehending what you are reading.

 

[realibrad]

You appear to be having trouble comprehending what you are reading.

Apparently. I advocate for discourse, and you say "As to defeating fascism, your way works before fascism has arrived." Why I would think you are advocating for something other than discourse seems reasonable, but, I must be wrong.

So, are you saying our way, or is it still my way?

 

[ivwshane]

Apparently. I advocate for discourse, and you say "As to defeating fascism, your way works before fascism has arrived." Why I would think you are advocating for something other than discourse seems reasonable, but, I must be wrong.

So, are you saying our way, or is it still my way?

Its telling that when I asked you to give an example to show that we aren't there yet that you ignored the request. Why is that?

Has quibbles the quibbler arrived on the scene?

 

[realibrad]

Its telling that when I asked you to give an example to show that we aren't there yet that you ignored the request. Why is that?

Has quibbles the quibbler arrived on the scene?

Well, I must have missed that, but its very easy.

The fact that you can call Trump what ever you want, and vote for an opposition is a pretty clear indication that we are not in a fascist state.

 

[zinfamous]

There was a game I played that had a rather conservative leaning forum and they posted stuff like this all the time when Obama was president.

Kavanaugh is a sitting judge. Not all judges are angelic saints, their job is to interpret and apply law. It’s actually quite narrow what they do. He doesn’t seem like a super likeable guy, in fact, he seems like the kind of guy who back in his high school or college days would have given nerds on Anandtech toilet swirlies while yelling his frat name. Beside his political leanings, there is no reason to think he won’t logically interpret the constitution. Given all that, he might be dangerous to left causes like aborting babies, but there is no reason to think we will fall into chaotic fascism.

If he gets confirmed, it just means the left when they get their turn will appoint someone even further from Kavanaugh, especially when RGB resigns.

The ABA vehemently disagrees with this. In fact, they have "plenty of reasons," because they are long familiar with this guy. They rate his judicial temperament as unacceptable. They recommended against appointing him to the circuit court. GOp did it anyway.

I'm curious from where you got your "no reason to think he won't logically interpret the constitution" information. Because it seems that the actual people that have long been familiar with him, and are aware of any and all reasons related to Kavanaugh, disagree with you strongly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/us/politics/kavanaugh-bar-association-aba.html

It goes back to 2006. I'm sure your "reasons" go back as far as that, right? The ABA has been all over this now, as well. They know. You or I really don't. Actually, the GOp knows too--they were just hoping to shove this shit down our throats and on one would pay any attention. When that didn't happen, they blamed the Dems for actually informing you of what they already knew, turned it into us vs them, pitting their own craven anti-justice desires against an easy story that would convince you to just swallow your enemies, as long as there is a "boogeyman."

This is actually what is happening. There is no mystery here. The information is spelled out, the timeline is there. It's up to any one individual whether or not they honestly care about forming their opinions over the actual facts, or simply over what they are comfortably told that they should believe.

Fact is, this goes back a long, long time. Distrust of Kavanaugh has long been a bi-partisan issue, including among many of the ratfuckers that are currently still sitting in the GOP. They know exactly what they are doing.

Time to get angry, my friend.

 

[ivwshane]

Well, I must have missed that, but its very easy.

The fact that you can call Trump what ever you want, and vote for an opposition is a pretty clear indication that we are not in a fascist state.

So you are going to refuse my request for the third time now?

Hi quibbles!

 

[realibrad]

So you are going to refuse my request for the third time now?

Hi quibbles!

dude, what?

Your question -
"Its telling that when I asked you to give an example to show that we aren't there yet that you ignored the request."

My answer -
"The fact that you can call Trump what ever you want, and vote for an opposition is a pretty clear indication that we are not in a fascist state."

 

[ivwshane]

dude, what?

Your question -
"Its telling that when I asked you to give an example to show that we aren't there yet that you ignored the request."

My answer -
"The fact that you can call Trump what ever you want, and vote for an opposition is a pretty clear indication that we are not in a fascist state."

And ignored for the fourth time. Keep it up quibbles!

 

[zinfamous]

This is nothing more than a liberal's version of Jade Helm / death panels. The FUD is strong, very strong.

what the utter fuck are you talking about? Jade Helm never existed. You can't point to a single shred of documented anything that Jade Helm or death panels were ever real. You can't.

We have gobs of testimony, evidence, reporting, documented information from panels and panels of people, that go back years that spell out exactly who Kavanaugh is, and what the GOP is doing with him right now.

This is documented. It is inarguable. You can handwave it away to yourself, but you are a ratfucking fool if you think a sensible adult believes your nonsense. It honestly boggles the mind that any of you brainless idiots think that your bold rejection of observable, verifiable fact is going to convince anyone that isn't as stupid as you to change their mounds around to your nonsense. Why do you actually think that is possible?

Gru training never really prepared you to fight the educated classes, is that it?