Are we on the threshold of a paradigm shift in scientific knowledge

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,575
6,712
126
By FRANS DE WAAL
Are humans hard-wired to be ruthlessly competitive or supportive of one another?

The behavior of our ape relatives, known as peaceful vegetarians, once bolstered the view that our actions could not be traced to an impulse to dominate. But in the late 1970s, when chimpanzees were discovered to hunt monkeys and kill each other, they became the poster boys for our violent origins and aggressive instinct.
I use the term "boys" on purpose because the theory was all about males without much attention to the females of the species, who just tagged along evolutionarily. It was hard to escape the notion that we are essentially "killer apes" destined to wage war forever.

Doubts about this macho origin myth have been on the rise, however, culminating in the announcement this past week of the discovery of a fossil of a 4.4 million year old ancestor that may have been gentler than previously thought. Considered close to the last common ancestor of apes and humans, this ancestral type, named Ardipithecus ramidus (or "Ardi"), had a less protruding mouth equipped with considerably smaller, blunter canine teeth than the chimpanzee's impressive fangs. This ape's canines serve as deadly knives, capable of slashing open an enemy's face and skin, causing either a quick death through blood loss or a slow one through festering infections. Wild chimps have been observed to use this weaponry to lethal effect in territorial combat. But the aggressiveness of chimpanzees obviously loses some of its significance if our ancestors were built quite differently. What if chimps are outliers in an otherwise relatively peaceful lineage?

Consider our other close relatives: gorillas and bonobos. Gorillas are known as gentle giants with a close-knit family life: they rarely kill. Even more striking is the bonobo, which is just as genetically close to us as the chimp. No bonobo has ever been observed to eliminate its own kind, neither in the wild nor in captivity. This slightly built, elegant ape seems to enjoy love and peace to a degree that would put any Woodstock veteran to shame. Bonobos have sometimes been presented as a delightful yet irrelevant side branch of our family tree, but what if they are more representative of our primate background than the blustering chimpanzee?

The assumption that we are born killers has been challenged from an entirely different angle by paleontologists asserting that the evidence for warfare does not go back much further than the agricultural revolution, about 15,000 years ago. No evidence for large-scale conflict, such as mass graves with embedded weapons, have been found from before this time. Even the walls of Jericho?considered one of the first signs of warfare and famous for having come tumbling down in the Old Testament?may have served mainly as protection against mudflows. There are even suggestions that before this time, about 70,000 years ago, our lineage was at the edge of extinction, living in scattered small bands with a global population of just a couple of thousand. These are hardly the sort of conditions that promote continuous warfare.

The once-popular killer ape theory is crumbling under its own lack of evidence, with "Ardi" putting the last nail in its coffin. On the other side of the equation, the one concerning our prosocial tendencies, the move has been towards increasing evidence for humans as cooperative and empathic. Some of this evidence comes from the new field of behavioral economics with studies showing that people do not always adhere to the profit principle. We care about fairness and justice and sometimes let these concerns override the desire to make as much money as possible. All over the world, people have played the "ultimatum game," in which one party is asked to react to the division of benefits proposed by another. Even people who have never heard of the French enlightenment and its call for égalité refuse to play along if the split seems unfair. They may accept a split of 60 for the proposer and 40 for themselves, but not a 80 to 20 split. They thus forgo income that they could have taken, which is something no rational being should ever do. A small income trumps no income at all.

Similarly, if one gives two monkeys hugely different rewards for the same task, the one who gets the short end of the stick refuses to cooperate. We hold out a piece of cucumber, which normally entices any monkey to perform, but with its neighbor munching on grapes cucumber is simply not good enough anymore. They protest the situation, sometimes even flinging those measly cucumber slices away, showing that even monkeys compare what they get with what others are getting.

And then there is the evidence for helping behavior, such as the consolation of distressed group members, which primates do by means of embracing and kissing. Elephants give reassuring rumbles to distressed youngsters, dolphins lift sick individuals to the surface where they can breathe, and almost every dog owner has stories of concerned reactions by their pets. In Roseville, Calif., a black Labrador jumped in front of his friend, a six-year-old boy, who was being threatened by a rattle snake. The dog took so much venom that he required blood transfusions to be saved.

The empathy literature on animals is growing fast, and is no longer restricted to such anecdotes. There are now systematic studies, and even experiments that show that we are not the only caring species. At the same time, we are getting used to findings of remarkable human empathy, such as those by neuroscientists that reward centers in the brain light up when we give to charity (hence the saying that "doing good feels good") or that seeing another in pain activates the same brain areas as when we are in pain ourselves. Obviously, we are hard-wired to be in tune with the emotions of others, a capacity that evolution should never have favored if exploitation of others were all that mattered.

? Frans de Waal, a professor of primate behavior in the psychology department at Emory University, is the author of "The Age of Empathy."
============

To a hammer everything looks like a nail. How we solve problems, how we see the world depends on the assumptions we bring to the table. Yet how much of what we assume, what we were taught, no longer holds. Are the rapid advances in scientific knowledge leaving us behind, thinking, like dinosaurs, thoughts that no longer apply.

The common notion of Darwinism, the survival of the fittest, has lent itself to a macho mentality, fostered and grafted onto a competitive society, and created a economic system that can be compared to kill or be killed, and it has gotten much succor from the assumption that is what we are by nature. We have created our system because it is what we were taught to believe. New scientific understanding indicates that our assumptions about the course of our evolution and who we are by nature is wrong.

See if you can find an area where the assumptions of individual self reliance and cooperative social behavior is colored by the assumptions we bring to the table.

I am going with this:

If dolphins will bring a sick fellow to the surface to breathe, why can't we have universal health care like other industrialized nations.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
By FRANS DE WAAL
Are humans hard-wired to be ruthlessly competitive or supportive of one another?

The behavior of our ape relatives, known as peaceful vegetarians, once bolstered the view that our actions could not be traced to an impulse to dominate. But in the late 1970s, when chimpanzees were discovered to hunt monkeys and kill each other, they became the poster boys for our violent origins and aggressive instinct.
I use the term "boys" on purpose because the theory was all about males without much attention to the females of the species, who just tagged along evolutionarily. It was hard to escape the notion that we are essentially "killer apes" destined to wage war forever.

Doubts about this macho origin myth have been on the rise, however, culminating in the announcement this past week of the discovery of a fossil of a 4.4 million year old ancestor that may have been gentler than previously thought. Considered close to the last common ancestor of apes and humans, this ancestral type, named Ardipithecus ramidus (or "Ardi"), had a less protruding mouth equipped with considerably smaller, blunter canine teeth than the chimpanzee's impressive fangs. This ape's canines serve as deadly knives, capable of slashing open an enemy's face and skin, causing either a quick death through blood loss or a slow one through festering infections. Wild chimps have been observed to use this weaponry to lethal effect in territorial combat. But the aggressiveness of chimpanzees obviously loses some of its significance if our ancestors were built quite differently. What if chimps are outliers in an otherwise relatively peaceful lineage?

Consider our other close relatives: gorillas and bonobos. Gorillas are known as gentle giants with a close-knit family life: they rarely kill. Even more striking is the bonobo, which is just as genetically close to us as the chimp. No bonobo has ever been observed to eliminate its own kind, neither in the wild nor in captivity. This slightly built, elegant ape seems to enjoy love and peace to a degree that would put any Woodstock veteran to shame. Bonobos have sometimes been presented as a delightful yet irrelevant side branch of our family tree, but what if they are more representative of our primate background than the blustering chimpanzee?

The assumption that we are born killers has been challenged from an entirely different angle by paleontologists asserting that the evidence for warfare does not go back much further than the agricultural revolution, about 15,000 years ago. No evidence for large-scale conflict, such as mass graves with embedded weapons, have been found from before this time. Even the walls of Jericho?considered one of the first signs of warfare and famous for having come tumbling down in the Old Testament?may have served mainly as protection against mudflows. There are even suggestions that before this time, about 70,000 years ago, our lineage was at the edge of extinction, living in scattered small bands with a global population of just a couple of thousand. These are hardly the sort of conditions that promote continuous warfare.

The once-popular killer ape theory is crumbling under its own lack of evidence, with "Ardi" putting the last nail in its coffin. On the other side of the equation, the one concerning our prosocial tendencies, the move has been towards increasing evidence for humans as cooperative and empathic. Some of this evidence comes from the new field of behavioral economics with studies showing that people do not always adhere to the profit principle. We care about fairness and justice and sometimes let these concerns override the desire to make as much money as possible. All over the world, people have played the "ultimatum game," in which one party is asked to react to the division of benefits proposed by another. Even people who have never heard of the French enlightenment and its call for égalité refuse to play along if the split seems unfair. They may accept a split of 60 for the proposer and 40 for themselves, but not a 80 to 20 split. They thus forgo income that they could have taken, which is something no rational being should ever do. A small income trumps no income at all.

Similarly, if one gives two monkeys hugely different rewards for the same task, the one who gets the short end of the stick refuses to cooperate. We hold out a piece of cucumber, which normally entices any monkey to perform, but with its neighbor munching on grapes cucumber is simply not good enough anymore. They protest the situation, sometimes even flinging those measly cucumber slices away, showing that even monkeys compare what they get with what others are getting.

And then there is the evidence for helping behavior, such as the consolation of distressed group members, which primates do by means of embracing and kissing. Elephants give reassuring rumbles to distressed youngsters, dolphins lift sick individuals to the surface where they can breathe, and almost every dog owner has stories of concerned reactions by their pets. In Roseville, Calif., a black Labrador jumped in front of his friend, a six-year-old boy, who was being threatened by a rattle snake. The dog took so much venom that he required blood transfusions to be saved.

The empathy literature on animals is growing fast, and is no longer restricted to such anecdotes. There are now systematic studies, and even experiments that show that we are not the only caring species. At the same time, we are getting used to findings of remarkable human empathy, such as those by neuroscientists that reward centers in the brain light up when we give to charity (hence the saying that "doing good feels good") or that seeing another in pain activates the same brain areas as when we are in pain ourselves. Obviously, we are hard-wired to be in tune with the emotions of others, a capacity that evolution should never have favored if exploitation of others were all that mattered.

? Frans de Waal, a professor of primate behavior in the psychology department at Emory University, is the author of "The Age of Empathy."
============

To a hammer everything looks like a nail. How we solve problems, how we see the world depends on the assumptions we bring to the table. Yet how much of what we assume, what we were taught, no longer holds. Are the rapid advances in scientific knowledge leaving us behind, thinking, like dinosaurs, thoughts that no longer apply.

The common notion of Darwinism, the survival of the fittest, has lent itself to a macho mentality, fostered and grafted onto a competitive society, and created a economic system that can be compared to kill or be killed, and it has gotten much succor from the assumption that is what we are by nature. We have created our system because it is what we were taught to believe. New scientific understanding indicates that our assumptions about the course of our evolution and who we are by nature is wrong.

See if you can find an area where the assumptions of individual self reliance and cooperative social behavior is colored by the assumptions we bring to the table.

I am going with this:

If dolphins will bring a sick fellow to the surface to breathe, why can't we have universal health care like other industrialized nations.

I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured. That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured.

That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

Yes you will or you will get the fuck out of here of you don't like it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,575
6,712
126
FME: I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured. That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

M: Will you pay taxes to have a provide a life guard or a fire department for when you aren't around to help out or in case it's you who is in trouble?
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
FME: I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured. That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

M: Will you pay taxes to have a provide a life guard or a fire department for when you aren't around to help out or in case it's you who is in trouble?

Basic services and government functions =/ handouts.

I don't mind tax dollars being used for arts, history and cultural stuff. On the other hand I don't want to see handouts being given to people in the name of equality when it has done nothing to help the very (a lot, not all) people they are designed to help to get back on their feet and become productive members of the society.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
FME: I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured. That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

M: Will you pay taxes to have a provide a life guard or a fire department for when you aren't around to help out or in case it's you who is in trouble?

Sure, but I won't pay to rebuild their house or pay all their medical bills. With 47% of the people not paying any federal taxes. The question is what are those 47% paying to help others with? Nothing. Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,831
10,567
147
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

Pics of you and your "long-time companion?" :p :laugh:

 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

Pics of you and your "long-time companion?" :p :laugh:

:roll: Stay classy.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,831
10,567
147
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

Pics of you and your "long-time companion?" :p :laugh:

:roll: Stay classy.

How would you even know what "classy" is, you angry, useless troll?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,427
33,011
136
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

You're already paying for medical care for the poor. You're also paying for gold plated, platinum tipped, fur wrapped medical care for geezers, even the rich geezers. With a single payer system at least you'd get a piece of the pie you've been buying.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

Wow :shocked:

Welcome to the real America

So have you switched from being Republican to Democrat as well?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,527
9,749
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured.

That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

Yes you will or you will get the fuck out of here of you don't like it.

You can make us leave over our cold dead bodies.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,831
10,567
147
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

:heart: for 'Moose! :thumbsup:
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
People don't need to go through government to be "supportive of one another." The very idea is really a slap in the face to those who voluntarily donate their time and resources helping others.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,527
9,749
136
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
By FRANS DE WAAL
Are humans hard-wired to be ruthlessly competitive or supportive of one another?
It was hard to escape the notion that we are essentially "killer apes" destined to wage war forever.
What if chimps are outliers in an otherwise relatively peaceful lineage?
Consider our other close relatives: gorillas and bonobos. Gorillas are known as gentle giants with a close-knit family life: they rarely kill.

Nonsense, the Chimp or Gorilla has no relevance.

Understanding our relatives does not change who we are and as a species we have killed many. That we may be more closely related to a peaceful ape will never erase the lives we?ve taken. You cannot just wish that away or explain it as if it never, or never should have, happened merely through related apes.

Humans are killers plain and simple and the evidence is found in our species, not in other closely related species. To look outside of humanity you are looking at that which is not human.


What do these peaceful apes do when confronted with limited resources, is the notion that they are peaceful tested under those circumstances? I would like to know as it is absolutely essential to the argument De Waal is making.

As Humans we have added more necessities than simply food and water. Our mental condition has given us more reasons to fight.

Also, are these apes being studied in a mere family setting? It would make sense that they are peaceful if they do not have large populations such as human tribes and nations. Perhaps our violence begins with simple overpopulation. When our bonds of codependence are already fulfilled and the stranger is no longer a necessary partner for survival.

Our bonds with one another begin at a very personal level. I contend that these relations are stretched thin the more numerous we are and that if we are not dependant on one another than our bonds of fellowship are broken.

Who is the hand the feeds you, a neighbor, or your government? Perhaps these days our codependence is backwards and if we are not dependant on our neighbor then we have made them expendable.

Perhaps that is the origin of our continued violence. Our society is so vast that our dependence relies on the big picture and many (not all) of the individuals around us are no longer part of our survival. We no longer depend on each individual. We instead depend on each other as a whole and therein many of us can fall through the cracks.

We detach ourselves from the codependent personal level and merely see the other person as a beneficiary of a handout that could have been ours. If we are both dependent on a third party and not on each other, then let?s off the competition. I contend that we start killing each other when we no longer need each other, and that there are simply so many of us that no one needs everyone.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
I kind of feel sorry for "Ardi", poor little thing was known as "tiny teeth" by her tribe and always got the dirty jobs because of it. It's good to see the archeologists making up fairy tales about her like the old Ugly Duckling tale, with the same grounding in scientific fact.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,575
6,712
126
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

You're already paying for medical care for the poor. You're also paying for gold plated, platinum tipped, fur wrapped medical care for geezers, even the rich geezers. With a single payer system at least you'd get a piece of the pie you've been buying.

Spot on a point as I can imagine being made. Even monkeys won't play if they think the game is unfair. They won't play for cucumbers if the other monkey gets grapes.

So for my second example of how new knowledge might affect how we do things I propose, in addition to universal health care, that everybody pay something in taxes, that if you have any income you pay income tax. Maybe not very much but something, and remember there are sales taxes that probably nobody escapes.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,575
6,712
126
Originally posted by: monovillage
I kind of feel sorry for "Ardi", poor little thing was known as "tiny teeth" by her tribe and always got the dirty jobs because of it. It's good to see the archeologists making up fairy tales about her like the old Ugly Duckling tale, with the same grounding in scientific fact.

I guess there are all levels of being behind in understanding science.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


So have you switched from being Republican to Democrat as well?

I've been a registered independent for every year of my life I've been eligible to vote, and had you taken off your partisan goggles for a fucking millisecond and read my posts you'd have read that in many of my posts over the years. I'm not a Libertarian either.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
FME: I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured. That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

M: Will you pay taxes to have a provide a life guard or a fire department for when you aren't around to help out or in case it's you who is in trouble?

Sure, but I won't pay to rebuild their house or pay all their medical bills. With 47% of the people not paying any federal taxes. The question is what are those 47% paying to help others with? Nothing. Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

You should go live in Mexico, dude. You'd love it down there. You can live like a king in your very own third world shithole.

And you should really stick to the facts for once. No one is asking you to rebuild someone's house, that's what homeowner's insurance is for, or FEMA if the shit really hits the fan. No one is asking you to pay anyone's medical bills, even though right now, that's what's happening since the cost of uninsured people who mooch off the system via ER visits simply gets passed through to your insurance premiums every month. And yeah, let's live in a world where we don't bother educating our citizens or provide any alternatives to hanging out with gangs for the kids to play outside safely.

Yeah, bro, Mexico is lookin' pretty good right about now, huh?
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

So now that YOU have profited for 25 years off the suffering of other people, NOW, as I presume you are getting older.. You suddenly have 'seen the light' and we should provide UHC to everyone? Maybe we should go back retroactively and take away some of these 'perks' you have gotten?

This strikes me a lot as someone like Warrent Buffet saying we should pay more in taxes and give more to the poor. Well, thats great.. after you've exploited the poor and avoided taxes in order to become rich.. now everyone else should suddenly not have the same perks as you did.

Maybe taxing healthcare employees would solve all of our problems? Sounds like you guys are living the high life off the suffering of others. I wonder how many of these poor people who are dying in the streets could have been saved if your co-workers would have bought a Hyundai instead of the Lexus?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,575
6,712
126
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
By FRANS DE WAAL
Are humans hard-wired to be ruthlessly competitive or supportive of one another?
It was hard to escape the notion that we are essentially "killer apes" destined to wage war forever.
What if chimps are outliers in an otherwise relatively peaceful lineage?
Consider our other close relatives: gorillas and bonobos. Gorillas are known as gentle giants with a close-knit family life: they rarely kill.

Nonsense, the Chimp or Gorilla has no relevance.

Understanding our relatives does not change who we are and as a species we have killed many. That we may be more closely related to a peaceful ape will never erase the lives we?ve taken. You cannot just wish that away or explain it as if it never, or never should have, happened merely through related apes.

Humans are killers plain and simple and the evidence is found in our species, not in other closely related species. To look outside of humanity you are looking at that which is not human.


What do these peaceful apes do when confronted with limited resources, is the notion that they are peaceful tested under those circumstances? I would like to know as it is absolutely essential to the argument De Waal is making.

As Humans we have added more necessities than simply food and water. Our mental condition has given us more reasons to fight.

Also, are these apes being studied in a mere family setting? It would make sense that they are peaceful if they do not have large populations such as human tribes and nations. Perhaps our violence begins with simple overpopulation. When our bonds of codependence are already fulfilled and the stranger is no longer a necessary partner for survival.

Our bonds with one another begin at a very personal level. I contend that these relations are stretched thin the more numerous we are and that if we are not dependant on one another than our bonds of fellowship are broken.

Who is the hand the feeds you, a neighbor, or your government? Perhaps these days our codependence is backwards and if we are not dependant on our neighbor then we have made them expendable.

Perhaps that is the origin of our continued violence. Our society is so vast that our dependence relies on the big picture and many (not all) of the individuals around us are no longer part of our survival. We no longer depend on each individual. We instead depend on each other as a whole and therein many of us can fall through the cracks.

We detach ourselves from the codependent personal level and merely see the other person as a beneficiary of a handout that could have been ours. If we are both dependent on a third party and not on each other, then let?s off the competition. I contend that we start killing each other when we no longer need each other, and that there are simply so many of us that no one needs everyone.

Very well done. I can think of no better example of what the world would look like from the point of view that the feeling one's self to be worthless were universally true. Without a capacity for empathy we are only dead things.

As I said in my OP, the feeling, the notion, and the inculcated belief that the world is a competition leads to seeing it in that way and living that way too. Anybody who has awakened out of a nightmare will have a pounding in his chest.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
FME: I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured. That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

M: Will you pay taxes to have a provide a life guard or a fire department for when you aren't around to help out or in case it's you who is in trouble?

Sure, but I won't pay to rebuild their house or pay all their medical bills. With 47% of the people not paying any federal taxes. The question is what are those 47% paying to help others with? Nothing. Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

You should go live in Mexico, dude. You'd love it down there. You can live like a king in your very own third world shithole.

And you should really stick to the facts for once. No one is asking you to rebuild someone's house, that's what homeowner's insurance is for, or FEMA if the shit really hits the fan. No one is asking you to pay anyone's medical bills, even though right now, that's what's happening since the cost of uninsured people who mooch off the system via ER visits simply gets passed through to your insurance premiums every month. And yeah, let's live in a world where we don't bother educating our citizens or provide any alternatives to hanging out with gangs for the kids to play outside safely.

Yeah, bro, Mexico is lookin' pretty good right about now, huh?

I didn't say we shouldn't pay for these things. I'm asking why its MY responsibility to pay for it and not the 47% who are much more of a burden on society with multiple kids who use things like parks, roads, healthcare MUCH more than I do.. they polute more.. they eat more, they drink more, they produce more sewage.. Yet, *I* am being told I don't care enough.. yet *I* am the one paying for this.. along with 53% of my fellow Americans. The other 47% should get all those things, for FREE, and then bitch that its not good enough.

So now I am being told I should ALSO pay for everyone's healthcare. Do you not see why I might be a little miffed about that? If we have UHC, we should have universal taxation as well.. not just those of us who have made good choices in life or chosen not to live beyond our means.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured.

That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

Yes you will or you will get the fuck out of here of you don't like it.

This strikes me a perfect example of the totalitarian mindset of the ultra-Left. You will do what we say, for your own good, or we will bury you.

The issue is individual determinance.

On the one extreme there is this drive to dominate our fellows. For the good of the community, the race, humanity, the tribe, the Party you must bow to our vision and our power. We will not let you sway us from our God/Party/ism mission and if you don't snap to it, we will kill you physically/intellectually/emotionally. God/Atheistic God/Science is on our side!

In opposition you have the impulse toward self determination - and it is a true distinguishing characteristic of human from animal.

You are born without anything but your body, a raw spirit and intelligence which are groomed by whatever supporting structure you may find yourself in. Born into family or into orphanage, we are nurtured until we can assume responsibility for ourselves.

In the not so distant past, and still in many parts of the world, the passage into adulthood came when you could provide food independently and/or you could contribute to the survival of the tribe/clan/society.

In the "modern" world, doesn't childhood extend into the 20's, the 30's and maybe some never get the impetus to achieve a true adulthood? Doesn't modern society support in so many ways the dependence of childhood way into physical adulthood? In other, more "primitive," societies adulthood comes as early as 9 or 10. Is humanity so much better off if we continue the dependency of childhood into middle age and beyond?

You are expected to make a contribution if you choose to live in a tribe or a society, but you also choose whether you do or not, and how you do or not. That is the essence of individual liberty in all of its ugly glory. When you cannot make that free choice, you live in totalitarianism, whether nurturing or oppressive.

While useful idiots argue that the group must dominate the individual, and thus further the agendas of those who control them, the rare question remains. When do you stand on your own two hind legs and become an adult?