Are we on the threshold of a paradigm shift in scientific knowledge

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil


So now that YOU have profited for 25 years off the suffering of other people, NOW, as I presume you are getting older.. You suddenly have 'seen the light' and we should provide UHC to everyone? Maybe we should go back retroactively and take away some of these 'perks' you have gotten?

This strikes me a lot as someone like Warrent Buffet saying we should pay more in taxes and give more to the poor. Well, thats great.. after you've exploited the poor and avoided taxes in order to become rich.. now everyone else should suddenly not have the same perks as you did.

Buffet's a pretty amazing guy, thanks for comparing me to him, I've actually owned a share of BRK.A, but for now, I like Apple.

Maybe taxing healthcare employees would solve all of our problems? Sounds like you guys are living the high life off the suffering of others. I wonder how many of these poor people who are dying in the streets could have been saved if your co-workers would have bought a Hyundai instead of the Lexus?

My employers don't allow us to pick & choose how we're reimbursed for our services, and they kill us with health care premiums because they studies that show we access the health care system at a higher rate than the average person, so they jack up our premiums and co-pays.

I think of you every time I empty a bedpan or wipe someone's ass

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil


So now that YOU have profited for 25 years off the suffering of other people, NOW, as I presume you are getting older.. You suddenly have 'seen the light' and we should provide UHC to everyone? Maybe we should go back retroactively and take away some of these 'perks' you have gotten?

This strikes me a lot as someone like Warrent Buffet saying we should pay more in taxes and give more to the poor. Well, thats great.. after you've exploited the poor and avoided taxes in order to become rich.. now everyone else should suddenly not have the same perks as you did.

Buffet's a pretty amazing guy, thanks for comparing me to him, I've actually owned a share of BRK.A, but for now, I like Apple.

Maybe taxing healthcare employees would solve all of our problems? Sounds like you guys are living the high life off the suffering of others. I wonder how many of these poor people who are dying in the streets could have been saved if your co-workers would have bought a Hyundai instead of the Lexus?

My employers don't allow us to pick & choose how we're reimbursed for our services, and they kill us with health care premiums because they studies that show we access the health care system at a higher rate than the average person, so they jack up our premiums and co-pays.

I think of you every time I empty a bedpan or wipe someone's ass

Dave's gonno be jealous

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil


So now that YOU have profited for 25 years off the suffering of other people, NOW, as I presume you are getting older.. You suddenly have 'seen the light' and we should provide UHC to everyone? Maybe we should go back retroactively and take away some of these 'perks' you have gotten?

This strikes me a lot as someone like Warrent Buffet saying we should pay more in taxes and give more to the poor. Well, thats great.. after you've exploited the poor and avoided taxes in order to become rich.. now everyone else should suddenly not have the same perks as you did.

Buffet's a pretty amazing guy, thanks for comparing me to him, I've actually owned a share of BRK.A, but for now, I like Apple.

Maybe taxing healthcare employees would solve all of our problems? Sounds like you guys are living the high life off the suffering of others. I wonder how many of these poor people who are dying in the streets could have been saved if your co-workers would have bought a Hyundai instead of the Lexus?

My employers don't allow us to pick & choose how we're reimbursed for our services, and they kill us with health care premiums because they studies that show we access the health care system at a higher rate than the average person, so they jack up our premiums and co-pays.

I think of you every time I empty a bedpan or wipe someone's ass

Thanks for completely ignoring my point. You are your co-workers by your own admission make extremely nice livings off the suffering of other people. You've benefited from it for 25 years and now suddenly as you get older and closer to actually needing much more healthcare for yourself, you have seen the light?

Maybe since not everyone has been so lucky in the stock market as you, you should throw any profits you have made into the public retirement pool? Why should you benefit unfairly from being lucky? And those who have decided to never save a penny in their lives - should just take it from you.

Seems only fair.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured.

That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

Yes you will or you will get the fuck out of here of you don't like it.

This strikes me a perfect example of the totalitarian mindset of the ultra-Left. You will do what we say, for your own good, or we will bury you.

The issue is individual determinance.

On the one extreme there is this drive to dominate our fellows. For the good of the community, the race, humanity, the tribe, the Party you must bow to our vision and our power. We will not let you sway us from our God/Party/ism mission and if you don't snap to it, we will kill you physically/intellectually/emotionally. God/Atheistic God/Science is on our side!

In opposition you have the impulse toward self determination - and it is a true distinguishing characteristic of human from animal.

You are born without anything but your body, a raw spirit and intelligence which are groomed by whatever supporting structure you may find yourself in. Born into family or into orphanage, we are nurtured until we can assume responsibility for ourselves.

In the not so distant past, and still in many parts of the world, the passage into adulthood came when you could provide food independently and/or you could contribute to the survival of the tribe/clan/society.

In the "modern" world, doesn't childhood extend into the 20's, the 30's and maybe some never get the impetus to achieve a true adulthood? Doesn't modern society support in so many ways the dependence of childhood way into physical adulthood? In other, more "primitive," societies adulthood comes as early as 9 or 10. Is humanity so much better off if we continue the dependency of childhood into middle age and beyond?

You are expected to make a contribution if you choose to live in a tribe or a society, but you also choose whether you do or not, and how you do or not. That is the essence of individual liberty in all of its ugly glory. When you cannot make that free choice, you live in totalitarianism, whether nurturing or oppressive.

While useful idiots argue that the group must dominate the individual, and thus further the agendas of those who control them, the rare question remains. When do you stand on your own two hind legs and become an adult?

You're absolutely right.

Republicans are animals and would rather starve their own children than share a meal.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

:thumbsup: I used to be dead set against UHC but now having spent a few years down in the ERs in Detroit and Ann Arbor, I am reconsidering. In recent years, I have seen an exponential increase in the number of people without insurance using our ER's as their PCP's. We're losing money and people are going home with humongous bills they are never going to be able to pay especially if they are admitted.

They have already trimmed our pay, vacation banks, and hours and some are starting to get laid off now. People are still getting sick so we just have bigger patient loads to cover. Never did I think I would see my colleagues involved in direct patient care losing their jobs. Something has to be done and if it means I make $5 less an hour, so be it. It's better than not having a job that was supposed to be 'safe'.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You're absolutely right.

Republicans are animals and would rather starve their own children than share a meal.

I don't know about the others, but I would rather teach them to fish than give them a fish. Of course then they couldn't be my personal slaves if they weren't dependent on me for fish.

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured.

That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

Yes you will or you will get the fuck out of here of you don't like it.

This strikes me a perfect example of the totalitarian mindset of the ultra-Left. You will do what we say, for your own good, or we will bury you.

The issue is individual determinance.

On the one extreme there is this drive to dominate our fellows. For the good of the community, the race, humanity, the tribe, the Party you must bow to our vision and our power. We will not let you sway us from our God/Party/ism mission and if you don't snap to it, we will kill you physically/intellectually/emotionally. God/Atheistic God/Science is on our side!

In opposition you have the impulse toward self determination - and it is a true distinguishing characteristic of human from animal.

You are born without anything but your body, a raw spirit and intelligence which are groomed by whatever supporting structure you may find yourself in. Born into family or into orphanage, we are nurtured until we can assume responsibility for ourselves.

In the not so distant past, and still in many parts of the world, the passage into adulthood came when you could provide food independently and/or you could contribute to the survival of the tribe/clan/society.

In the "modern" world, doesn't childhood extend into the 20's, the 30's and maybe some never get the impetus to achieve a true adulthood? Doesn't modern society support in so many ways the dependence of childhood way into physical adulthood? In other, more "primitive," societies adulthood comes as early as 9 or 10. Is humanity so much better off if we continue the dependency of childhood into middle age and beyond?

You are expected to make a contribution if you choose to live in a tribe or a society, but you also choose whether you do or not, and how you do or not. That is the essence of individual liberty in all of its ugly glory. When you cannot make that free choice, you live in totalitarianism, whether nurturing or oppressive.

While useful idiots argue that the group must dominate the individual, and thus further the agendas of those who control them, the rare question remains. When do you stand on your own two hind legs and become an adult?

You're absolutely right.

Republicans are animals and would rather starve their own children than share a meal.

Your God is watching you, Dave.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

:thumbsup: I used to be dead set against UHC but now having spent a few years down in the ERs in Detroit and Ann Arbor, I am reconsidering. In recent years, I have seen an exponential increase in the number of people without insurance using our ER's as their PCP's. We're losing money and people are going home with humongous bills they are never going to be able to pay especially if they are admitted.

They have already trimmed our pay, vacation banks, and hours and some are starting to get laid off now. People are still getting sick so we just have bigger patient loads to cover. Never did I think I would see my colleagues involved in direct patient care losing their jobs. Something has to be done and if it means I make $5 less an hour, so be it. It's better than not having a job that was supposed to be 'safe'.

It's awesome watching the thieving system collapse upon itself.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

:thumbsup: I used to be dead set against UHC but now having spent a few years down in the ERs in Detroit and Ann Arbor, I am reconsidering. In recent years, I have seen an exponential increase in the number of people without insurance using our ER's as their PCP's. We're losing money and people are going home with humongous bills they are never going to be able to pay especially if they are admitted.

They have already trimmed our pay, vacation banks, and hours and some are starting to get laid off now. People are still getting sick so we just have bigger patient loads to cover. Never did I think I would see my colleagues involved in direct patient care losing their jobs. Something has to be done and if it means I make $5 less an hour, so be it. It's better than not having a job that was supposed to be 'safe'.

Well sure, take a small pay cut and have the government completely nationalize healthcare all so you can have a 'safe' job. Meanwhile the rest of us can still get laid off, outsourced, etc.. But if UHC means that your job is pretty much set for life, then by all means support it.. :roll:

What if UHC means you get paid $10-15 less an hour and have twice as many patients?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

And our(U.S.of A) not-so-rich travel to Mexico and India for care they can afford. "sigh"

 

[Moonbeam]

What we need to do as humans, I am sure, is to ridicule and belittle anyone, no matter how selfish, if they gain some measure of compassion. It always makes me uncomfortable, as a piece of dirt, if there's somebody somewhere who might be slightly clean.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

:thumbsup: I used to be dead set against UHC but now having spent a few years down in the ERs in Detroit and Ann Arbor, I am reconsidering. In recent years, I have seen an exponential increase in the number of people without insurance using our ER's as their PCP's. We're losing money and people are going home with humongous bills they are never going to be able to pay especially if they are admitted.

They have already trimmed our pay, vacation banks, and hours and some are starting to get laid off now. People are still getting sick so we just have bigger patient loads to cover. Never did I think I would see my colleagues involved in direct patient care losing their jobs. Something has to be done and if it means I make $5 less an hour, so be it. It's better than not having a job that was supposed to be 'safe'.

Well sure, take a small pay cut and have the government completely nationalize healthcare all so you can have a 'safe' job. Meanwhile the rest of us can still get laid off, outsourced, etc.. But if UHC means that your job is pretty much set for life, then by all means support it.. :roll:

What if UHC means you get paid $10-15 less an hour and have twice as many patients?

I find it funny that the business first folks are able to reconcile hospitals going broke giving out millions of dollars of un-reimbursed medical care every month as long as it doesn't mean the evil: UHC. But Banks provide a far more important service...

What part of I am already being paid less and have more patients to take care of with the current system was too hard to understand? How much longer do you think we can keep giving out free care before we start turning people away? Do you even care...

Cry in some other beer about the "rest of us" bullshit. I didn't pick anyone's job buy my own, PLUS health care my first or even 2nd college degree. It was my 3rd degree attained in my late 30's after having had 2 careers outsourced already and still having 3 kids at home to support. I didn't piss and moan and say what about me, I went back to school. Maybe you should do the same. You sound like are becoming what you hate. A liberal. Stay the fuck out of my ER without insurance and no means to pay if you don't want to be part of a solution. Problem solved. You are free to bleed out on the curb while holding your Fuck Obama/UHC poster.

 

[WHAMPOM]

By the way the majority of mortgage defaults, credit card debt and bankruptcy is health care costs. Also while 40,000 Americans die because they do not get medical care, over 90,000 die from getting improper medical care. And for Moony, competition and co-operation are both essential for survivial in the natural world and Human society.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: PJABBER


The issue is individual determinance.

We have built a society that has a structure. Think of it as the pegs balls hit falling to create a bell curve. We get some very responsible individuals and some who are not, with a great middle ground. But if we created a different social structure, while we would still get a bell curve, we could move it very much to the right or the left, depending on how you define the results. By changing the structure we can effect the results, in my opinion, so the issue, I think, is how do you best create a society in which the natural inclination or natural determinant people make is for the good of others.

I think, in short, that it is the vicious competitiveness bred into us by the system we have created and the way it has evolved as a result, that maintains that vicious system and assures its continuation. I remember reading about school in Polynesia where children look to see if everybody will raise a hand before they do. They don't have this look at me, I know the answer teacher, aren't I great, kind of thinking. It indicates to me that what we are may be overridden by culture, and that one culture may be sicker than another, that is to say, further from our real human nature.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
By the way the majority of mortgage defaults, credit card debt and bankruptcy is health care costs. Also while 40,000 Americans die because they do not get medical care, over 90,000 die from getting improper medical care. And for Moony, competition and co-operation are both essential for survivial in the natural world and Human society.

Competition is hate.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

:thumbsup: I used to be dead set against UHC but now having spent a few years down in the ERs in Detroit and Ann Arbor, I am reconsidering. In recent years, I have seen an exponential increase in the number of people without insurance using our ER's as their PCP's. We're losing money and people are going home with humongous bills they are never going to be able to pay especially if they are admitted.

They have already trimmed our pay, vacation banks, and hours and some are starting to get laid off now. People are still getting sick so we just have bigger patient loads to cover. Never did I think I would see my colleagues involved in direct patient care losing their jobs. Something has to be done and if it means I make $5 less an hour, so be it. It's better than not having a job that was supposed to be 'safe'.

Well sure, take a small pay cut and have the government completely nationalize healthcare all so you can have a 'safe' job. Meanwhile the rest of us can still get laid off, outsourced, etc.. But if UHC means that your job is pretty much set for life, then by all means support it.. :roll:

What if UHC means you get paid $10-15 less an hour and have twice as many patients?

I find it funny that the business first folks are able to reconcile hospitals going broke giving out millions of dollars of un-reimbursed medical care every month as long as it doesn't mean the evil: UHC. But Banks provide a far more important service...

What part of I am already being paid less and have more patients to take care of with the current system was too hard to understand? How much longer do you think we can keep giving out free care before we start turning people away? Do you even care...

Cry in some other beer about the "rest of us" bullshit. I didn't pick anyone's job buy my own, PLUS health care my first or even 2nd college degree. It was my 3rd degree attained in my late 30's after having had 2 careers outsourced already and still having 3 kids at home to support. I didn't piss and moan and say what about me, I went back to school. Maybe you should do the same. You sound like are becoming what you hate. A liberal. Stay the fuck out of my ER without insurance and no means to pay if you don't want to be part of a solution. Problem solved. You are free to bleed out on the curb while holding your Fuck Obama/UHC poster.

Why is UHC automatically mean that hospitals won't go broke, people will get great care, and Doctors and staff will have less work? I think its more likely Hospitals will get even LESS from the government, you will get less quality of care, and have even MORE work. Who generally pays more for a procedure.. medicare, or private insurance? I'm guessing in most cases the government pays less for any given service.

You talk about giving away free care NOW.. What happens when nobody cares about the cost of healthcare anymore because Uncle Sam is providing it? The number of people requesting care is going to skyrocket.. why not? Its free. The amount of money you are going to be getting is going to be LESS because the government can bully you into doing whatever they want. What are you going to do, not accept patients on UHC?

Unless you course you buy into the hype that eliminating waste and fraud will actually drive costs down. Yeah.. RIGHT. Show me one government program where waste and fraud isn't rampant. So the government will have 2 options.. RAISE TAXES or CUT CARE.

MY career is going just fine. I don't need to support the government taking over my industry to save my job. I'm saying supporting UHC because it will make YOUR job more stable is at best selfish and at worst just corrupt. I don't know if thats your opinion or not but Pliablemoose mentioned it..

But its nice to see that because we disagree on the solution to our Healthcare problem that you would like to see me bleed out on the curb. Typical compasionate liberal there. THINK AS I DO OR I HOPE YOU DIE.. :roll:

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've been employed in health care for 25+ years, and frankly I was against UHC for personal, profitable reasons. for instance, I'm living in Hollywood, my apt paid for, all utilities, cable, etc and working at one of the largest HMO's in the US making good $ in addition to having all my needs met for housing, the only thing they don't do for me is shop for my groceries and drive me back & forth to work as a temp.

My co-workers (nurses) drive Mercedes and Lexus's and make a ton of cash here and we're 80%+ in favor of UHC, despite the very real likelihood we will earn less $.

I think one of my pivotal moments was watching Sicko and hating it, when the movie was over, everyone around me stood up and applauded, I was shocked. The next thing that frankly pissed me off was when transitioning from full time staff to a temp, I got a COBRA notice in the mail, offering to cover me for nearly a thousand dollars a month.

What we have doesn't work well, and it rations health care in a manner we should be ashamed of. The rest of the world laughs at our system, except for the uber rich, who come here for their health care.

:thumbsup: I used to be dead set against UHC but now having spent a few years down in the ERs in Detroit and Ann Arbor, I am reconsidering. In recent years, I have seen an exponential increase in the number of people without insurance using our ER's as their PCP's. We're losing money and people are going home with humongous bills they are never going to be able to pay especially if they are admitted.

They have already trimmed our pay, vacation banks, and hours and some are starting to get laid off now. People are still getting sick so we just have bigger patient loads to cover. Never did I think I would see my colleagues involved in direct patient care losing their jobs. Something has to be done and if it means I make $5 less an hour, so be it. It's better than not having a job that was supposed to be 'safe'.

Well sure, take a small pay cut and have the government completely nationalize healthcare all so you can have a 'safe' job. Meanwhile the rest of us can still get laid off, outsourced, etc.. But if UHC means that your job is pretty much set for life, then by all means support it.. :roll:

What if UHC means you get paid $10-15 less an hour and have twice as many patients?

What if the sky were to fall and hit you on the head?

Man Hit By Meteor

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
By the way the majority of mortgage defaults, credit card debt and bankruptcy is health care costs. Also while 40,000 Americans die because they do not get medical care, over 90,000 die from getting improper medical care. And for Moony, competition and co-operation are both essential for survivial in the natural world and Human society.

Competition is hate.

Compassion is a fire-brewed kosher slice of pizza.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
By the way the majority of mortgage defaults, credit card debt and bankruptcy is health care costs. Also while 40,000 Americans die because they do not get medical care, over 90,000 die from getting improper medical care. And for Moony, competition and co-operation are both essential for survivial in the natural world and Human society.

Competition is hate.

Compassion is a fire-brewed kosher slice of pizza.

I'm sure it is to you. You completely missed the fact above that bleeding out on the curb is your attitude, not his. He is just throwing it in your face, which of course only served to blind you.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
By the way the majority of mortgage defaults, credit card debt and bankruptcy is health care costs. Also while 40,000 Americans die because they do not get medical care, over 90,000 die from getting improper medical care. And for Moony, competition and co-operation are both essential for survivial in the natural world and Human society.

Competition is hate.

Compassion is a fire-brewed kosher slice of pizza.

I'm sure it is to you. You completely missed the fact above that bleeding out on the curb is your attitude, not his. He is just throwing it in your face, which of course only served to blind you.

It most certainly is NOT my idea. But it certainly doesn't surprise me you are confused since you clearly a sympathizer with Punjabi Elitist Monks. You could make the argument that my position is to allow people to drown in debt, but I've never suggested we shouldn't provide healthcare to those who need it.

Try again.. unless your solenoid fluid discrepancy prevents you from careening into a baited fishing line. But then of course you would have some REAL problems..

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: PJABBER


The issue is individual determinance.

We have built a society that has a structure. Think of it as the pegs balls hit falling to create a bell curve. We get some very responsible individuals and some who are not, with a great middle ground. But if we created a different social structure, while we would still get a bell curve, we could move it very much to the right or the left, depending on how you define the results. By changing the structure we can effect the results, in my opinion, so the issue, I think, is how do you best create a society in which the natural inclination or natural determinant people make is for the good of others.

I think, in short, that it is the vicious competitiveness bred into us by the system we have created and the way it has evolved as a result, that maintains that vicious system and assures its continuation. I remember reading about school in Polynesia where children look to see if everybody will raise a hand before they do. They don't have this look at me, I know the answer teacher, aren't I great, kind of thinking. It indicates to me that what we are may be overridden by culture, and that one culture may be sicker than another, that is to say, further from our real human nature.

I very much enjoyed the article in praise of Darwinism that you referenced in a previous thread. I think we have evolved into the beings that we are through a hit or miss interaction with a hostile and competitive natural environment.

Civilization in many of its forms allows the group to survive better and longer in the face of Nature. But it may not be sustainable in that its focus is now not the survival of Nature but the survival of itself.

There is one truly unfortunate consequence of societal evolution. Man is forced to face the selectivity of the groups it forms.

The debate surrounding the influence of structure and agency on human thought and behavior is one of the central issues in sociology and other social sciences but look at how poor our understanding is.

Accepting that civilization and its current mores are much more recent in development, only hundreds and not hundreds of thousands or millions of years along the evolutionary path of development, we can start to understand that the survival traits of our forbears have very little to do with our ability to survive the experiment of civilization.

Our current civilization is at the abiogenesis stage of societal development, who knows where we will wind up?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The common notion of Darwinism, the survival of the fittest, has lent itself to a macho mentality, fostered and grafted onto a competitive society, and created a economic system that can be compared to kill or be killed, and it has gotten much succor from the assumption that is what we are by nature. We have created our system because it is what we were taught to believe.

The problem is many are taught to believe in a misrepresentation of what Darwin revealed to us; a demented delusion of Godly Omniscience to determine what is most fit, and hence the ability to choose what should survive or perish. Put simply' "survival of the fittest" is a well documented scientific fact, but "only the fittest should survive" is a fiendish distortion of this fact.

"Evil demons have kept the truth from humanity for thousands of years - God has been misquoted all this time!" - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Thanks for completely ignoring my point. You are your co-workers by your own admission make extremely nice livings off the suffering of other people. You've benefited from it for 25 years and now suddenly as you get older and closer to actually needing much more healthcare for yourself, you have seen the light?

Maybe since not everyone has been so lucky in the stock market as you, you should throw any profits you have made into the public retirement pool? Why should you benefit unfairly from being lucky? And those who have decided to never save a penny in their lives - should just take it from you.

Seems only fair.

It was only just now that I realized you are a bitterly hopeless communist reactionary, a catigory I'd never even pondered the existance of before. That explains much of the arguments you have made here throughout the years, and those of many others I've come across in my days. That said, I do empathize with your situation, and hope you feel better soon.

 

[piasabird]

I guess the right to die does not exist.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The common notion of Darwinism, the survival of the fittest, has lent itself to a macho mentality, fostered and grafted onto a competitive society, and created a economic system that can be compared to kill or be killed, and it has gotten much succor from the assumption that is what we are by nature. We have created our system because it is what we were taught to believe.

The problem is many are taught to believe in a misrepresentation of what Darwin revealed to us; a demented delusion of Godly Omniscience to determine what is most fit, and hence the ability to choose what should survive or perish. Put simply' "survival of the fittest" is a well documented scientific fact, but "only the fittest should survive" is a fiendish distortion of this fact.

"Evil demons have kept the truth from humanity for thousands of years - God has been misquoted all this time!" - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Thanks for completely ignoring my point. You are your co-workers by your own admission make extremely nice livings off the suffering of other people. You've benefited from it for 25 years and now suddenly as you get older and closer to actually needing much more healthcare for yourself, you have seen the light?

Maybe since not everyone has been so lucky in the stock market as you, you should throw any profits you have made into the public retirement pool? Why should you benefit unfairly from being lucky? And those who have decided to never save a penny in their lives - should just take it from you.

Seems only fair.

It was only just now that I realized you are a bitterly hopeless communist reactionary, a catigory I'd never even pondered the existance of before. That explains much of the arguments you have made here throughout the years, and those of many others I've come across in my days. That said, I do empathize with your situation, and hope you feel better soon.

I haven't been here a year yet, and I'm not hopeless.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I haven't been here a year yet...

My bad, it is your arguments which have been here for many years before you.

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
...and I'm not hopeless.

Sure, you hope to have every way to livings off the suffering of other people available to you as everyone else has ever had, in a bitterly reactionary response to the inability to attain your communist ideal.