Are we on the threshold of a paradigm shift in scientific knowledge

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

The impulse to kill ourselves was bred out, the impulse to kill others was bred in. Then came Civilization and Enlightenment. And now we are starting all over again.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

The impulse to kill ourselves was bred out, the impulse to kill others was bred in. Then came Civilization and Enlightenment. And now we are starting all over again.

Then how do you explain murder/suicides?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

Pics of you and your "long-time companion?" :laugh:

:roll: Stay classy.

How would you even know what "classy" is, you angry, useless troll?

Well, you clearly can't handle yourself in a classy manner, you bitter, old troll...

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

The impulse to kill ourselves was bred out, the impulse to kill others was bred in. Then came Civilization and Enlightenment. And now we are starting all over again.

Then how do you explain murder/suicides?

I can't understand why partisan liberal hacks exist in the first place and you want me to explain to you why there are murder/suicides? Maybe they are liberally unhappy?

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

Pics of you and your "long-time companion?" :laugh:

:roll: Stay classy.

How would you even know what "classy" is, you angry, useless troll?

Well, you clearly can't handle yourself in a classy manner, you bitter, old troll...

I guess some people measure class by how much money someone has and others measure it by.... well, how much class they have.

Maybe you should change your avatar to the dollar sign?

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

The impulse to kill ourselves was bred out, the impulse to kill others was bred in. Then came Civilization and Enlightenment. And now we are starting all over again.

Then how do you explain murder/suicides?

I can't understand why partisan liberal hacks exist in the first place and you want me to explain to you why there are murder/suicides? Maybe they are liberally unhappy?

Last guy I personally knew that killed himself was an ex-marine vietnam vet and a stock broker. Just the kind of guy you claim should have the urge to kill himself "bred out" of him.

I asked for you toexpain your therory, not insult people, but I guess your doing the best you can with what you have to work with, so it's cool.

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

The impulse to kill ourselves was bred out, the impulse to kill others was bred in. Then came Civilization and Enlightenment. And now we are starting all over again.

Then how do you explain murder/suicides?

I can't understand why partisan liberal hacks exist in the first place and you want me to explain to you why there are murder/suicides? Maybe they are liberally unhappy?

Last guy I personally knew that killed himself was an ex-marine vietnam vet and a stock broker. Just the kind of guy you claim should have the urge to kill himself "bred out" of him.

I asked for you toexpain your therory, not insult people, but I guess your doing the best you can with what you have to work with, so it's cool.

You're welcome. I do try to tailor my responses to the anticipated audience.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

The impulse to kill ourselves was bred out, the impulse to kill others was bred in. Then came Civilization and Enlightenment. And now we are starting all over again.

Then how do you explain murder/suicides?

I can't understand why partisan liberal hacks exist in the first place and you want me to explain to you why there are murder/suicides? Maybe they are liberally unhappy?

Last guy I personally knew that killed himself was an ex-marine vietnam vet and a stock broker. Just the kind of guy you claim should have the urge to kill himself "bred out" of him.

I asked for you toexpain your therory, not insult people, but I guess your doing the best you can with what you have to work with, so it's cool.

You're welcome. I do try to tailor my responses to the anticipated audience.

I wasn't expecting much from you.... and you didn't disapopint.

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: piasabird
I guess the right to die does not exist.

You must mean "the right to kill" because anybody worth their salt would be able to figure out a way to die unless they were a quadriplegic.

The impulse to kill ourselves was bred out, the impulse to kill others was bred in. Then came Civilization and Enlightenment. And now we are starting all over again.

Then how do you explain murder/suicides?

I can't understand why partisan liberal hacks exist in the first place and you want me to explain to you why there are murder/suicides? Maybe they are liberally unhappy?

Last guy I personally knew that killed himself was an ex-marine vietnam vet and a stock broker. Just the kind of guy you claim should have the urge to kill himself "bred out" of him.

I asked for you toexpain your therory, not insult people, but I guess your doing the best you can with what you have to work with, so it's cool.

You're welcome. I do try to tailor my responses to the anticipated audience.

I wasn't expecting much from you.... and you didn't disapopint.

Sorry, can't say the same about you. :brokenheart:

 

[PJABBER]

The above is not as maudlin as Love Story. But it is getting there! :laugh:

 

[imported_mateo]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

So now that YOU have profited for 25 years off the suffering of other people, NOW, as I presume you are getting older.. You suddenly have 'seen the light' and we should provide UHC to everyone? Maybe we should go back retroactively and take away some of these 'perks' you have gotten?

This strikes me a lot as someone like Warrent Buffet saying we should pay more in taxes and give more to the poor. Well, thats great.. after you've exploited the poor and avoided taxes in order to become rich.. now everyone else should suddenly not have the same perks as you did.

Maybe taxing healthcare employees would solve all of our problems? Sounds like you guys are living the high life off the suffering of others. I wonder how many of these poor people who are dying in the streets could have been saved if your co-workers would have bought a Hyundai instead of the Lexus?

Wow, just wow.

I have worked in health care for 5 years and have actually never heard this sort of criticism. Are you suggesting that all of us in healthcare volunteer and work for free? Do you also feel fire fighters, medics, police, etc profit off of others suffering? If none of us got paid who do you think would help you if you were sick, injured, etc??

The truth is it takes a very large team of people working around the clock to provide the services necessary to bring people back to health (or at least try). This massive team of people, equipment, drugs, etc adds up to a heck of a lot of money. Yes, many of us are paid well for the services we provide (although many more in the system are paid crap), but that is how capitalism works. We are paid what the market says we are worth.

I will not feel guilty for being paid a fair wage for the services that I provide. After all, it took me ten years of college, huge student loans, and an incredible amount of work to get where I am.

On Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other holidays be sure to think about this thread and us evil, selfish, healthcare workers. Many of us will be at work taking care of sick people while you enjoy time with your family and/or friends. Right now its a Saturday night and I am here at work. Don?t get me wrong, I'm not looking for sympathy. I am just pointing out that there is a lot of crap that goes along with working in healthcare (pun intended for my colleagues out there). If you want people to do these jobs you have to pay them well. Duh!

If you don?t like it perhaps you should start your own all volunteer hospital.

And, when you get mangled in a car wreck be sure to tell the ER staff they suck for getting paid...especially the surgeon that is going to put you back together at 4am on a holiday.

BTW: At only five years into this "evil" profession I also support UHC.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

MY career is going just fine. I don't need to support the government taking over my industry to save my job. I'm saying supporting UHC because it will make YOUR job more stable is at best selfish and at worst just corrupt. I don't know if thats your opinion or not but Pliablemoose mentioned it..

You fail at understanding the health care industry, my job wont be more stable, hospitals can't function without us, we're the "recession proof" industry. We're saying we're in the trenches and health care is being rationed in an inhumane manner.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: mateo

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

So now that YOU have profited for 25 years off the suffering of other people, NOW, as I presume you are getting older.. You suddenly have 'seen the light' and we should provide UHC to everyone? Maybe we should go back retroactively and take away some of these 'perks' you have gotten?

This strikes me a lot as someone like Warrent Buffet saying we should pay more in taxes and give more to the poor. Well, thats great.. after you've exploited the poor and avoided taxes in order to become rich.. now everyone else should suddenly not have the same perks as you did.

Maybe taxing healthcare employees would solve all of our problems? Sounds like you guys are living the high life off the suffering of others. I wonder how many of these poor people who are dying in the streets could have been saved if your co-workers would have bought a Hyundai instead of the Lexus?

Wow, just wow.

I have worked in health care for 5 years and have actually never heard this sort of criticism. Are you suggesting that all of us in healthcare volunteer and work for free? Do you also feel fire fighters, medics, police, etc profit off of others suffering? If none of us got paid who do you think would help you if you were sick, injured, etc??

The truth is it takes a very large team of people working around the clock to provide the services necessary to bring people back to health (or at least try). This massive team of people, equipment, drugs, etc adds up to a heck of a lot of money. Yes, many of us are paid well for the services we provide (although many more in the system are paid crap), but that is how capitalism works. We are paid what the market says we are worth.

I will not feel guilty for being paid a fair wage for the services that I provide. After all, it took me ten years of college, huge student loans, and an incredible amount of work to get where I am.

On Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other holidays be sure to think about this thread and us evil, selfish, healthcare workers. Many of us will be at work taking care of sick people while you enjoy time with your family and/or friends. Right now its a Saturday night and I am here at work. Don?t get me wrong, I'm not looking for sympathy. I am just pointing out that there is a lot of crap that goes along with working in healthcare (pun intended for my colleagues out there). If you want people to do these jobs you have to pay them well. Duh!

If you don?t like it perhaps you should start your own all volunteer hospital.

And, when you get mangled in a car wreck be sure to tell the ER staff they suck for getting paid...especially the surgeon that is going to put you back together at 4am on a holiday.

BTW: At only five years into this "evil" profession I also support UHC.

Again with people wishing physical harm on me. I'll look poast that and try to address you points without wishing harm on you.

One of the big criticisms people use against insurance companies is that they profit off the suffering of people. I thought I would turn that same argument against the Healthcare workers themselves. If you find that argument unfair, I think you may have actually stumbled upon my point.. if its unfair to use it against Healthcare workers themselves, its probably unfair to use it against Insurance Companies as well?

You talk about 'fair wage' and about all the schooling you went though and how much all of the stuff you do costs. But then you say you support UHC.. which in MY mind seems to throw ALL of those things out the window. With government run Healthcare NONE of that matters. You get paid what the government says, you get to perform the procedures the government approves, you get paid what the government is willing to pay.

So while YOU think you should get paid what your worth.. and I think you should get paid what your worth.. The entire premise of UHC seems to not give a shit about any of that. There is a finite pool of money even with the government... my guess is the workers are going to be the first ones screwed in this new plan. But hey, if you want to believe that when the government takes over healthcare, everything is going to become a utopia, feel free to pass over whatever you are smoking because its some GOOD SHIT.

Pliablemoose was the one implying he and his co-workers were profiting quite nicely from their positions. Is it OK for HIM to do it, but somehow evil for insurance companies to do that? Do you see the point I am trying to make? I also find it a bit dubious that a person who admits to having profited nicely from their job in Healthcare for 25 years now suddenly has the urge to turn it all over to the government because its the 'right thing to do'. Seems like questioning his motives is fair if you are expecting me and the rest of the 53% of the population that pays Federal Taxes to become your employer.

 

[imported_mateo]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

We're saying we're in the trenches and health care is being rationed in an inhumane manner.

This sums it up well. We can do so much better than we are now.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

MY career is going just fine. I don't need to support the government taking over my industry to save my job. I'm saying supporting UHC because it will make YOUR job more stable is at best selfish and at worst just corrupt. I don't know if thats your opinion or not but Pliablemoose mentioned it..

You fail at understanding the health care industry, my job wont be more stable, hospitals can't function without us, we're the "recession proof" industry. We're saying we're in the trenches and health care is being rationed in an inhumane manner.

You didn't seem to have a problem with it for the past 25 years. Why now? Because you are getting old and have made your profits already? Why is it OK for YOU to make good money off sick people but its evil and inhumane for insurance companies to do it?

Do you honestly think all of these wonderful expensive drugs, machines, treatments, etc that you get to use would have been invented if there was no incentive for the inventors risk their money and time? Do you think YOUR performance will improve if the government decides you are worth 25% less and need to work 25% more patients?

I think there is a reason a large majority of the innovation and improvements in Healthcare come out of the United States, because most other countries have removed the incentive for people to be innovative. I know 'profit' is the evil buzzword these days, but that same profit is what has driven the medical industry to be one of the most high tech in the world. Remove that motivation, and I think we will all suffer in the long run.

BTW, I do currently work in the Healthcare industry.. The current system is broke, but UHC is not the answer.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

You didn't seem to have a problem with it for the past 25 years. Why now? Because you are getting old and have made your profits already? Why is it OK for YOU to make good money off sick people but its evil and inhumane for insurance companies to do it?

Do you honestly think all of these wonderful expensive drugs, machines, treatments, etc that you get to use would have been invented if there was no incentive for the inventors risk their money and time? Do you think YOUR performance will improve if the government decides you are worth 25% less and need to work 25% more patients?

I think there is a reason a large majority of the innovation and improvements in Healthcare come out of the United States, because most other countries have removed the incentive for people to be innovative. I know 'profit' is the evil buzzword these days, but that same profit is what has driven the medical industry to be one of the most high tech in the world. Remove that motivation, and I think we will all suffer in the long run.

BTW, I do currently work in the Healthcare industry.. The current system is broke, but UHC is not the answer.

LOL, bullshit, unless you mop floors...

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: mateo

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

We're saying we're in the trenches and health care is being rationed in an inhumane manner.

This sums it up well. We can do so much better than we are now.

So you think turning the system over to the Government is going to make it more 'humane'? Government has given us a 10 trillion dollar debt.. What do you think is going to be humane about our new UHC system when we are 20 trillion dollars in debt and we can't afford to just write blank checks for healthcare?

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

You didn't seem to have a problem with it for the past 25 years. Why now? Because you are getting old and have made your profits already? Why is it OK for YOU to make good money off sick people but its evil and inhumane for insurance companies to do it?

Do you honestly think all of these wonderful expensive drugs, machines, treatments, etc that you get to use would have been invented if there was no incentive for the inventors risk their money and time? Do you think YOUR performance will improve if the government decides you are worth 25% less and need to work 25% more patients?

I think there is a reason a large majority of the innovation and improvements in Healthcare come out of the United States, because most other countries have removed the incentive for people to be innovative. I know 'profit' is the evil buzzword these days, but that same profit is what has driven the medical industry to be one of the most high tech in the world. Remove that motivation, and I think we will all suffer in the long run.

BTW, I do currently work in the Healthcare industry.. The current system is broke, but UHC is not the answer.

LOL, bullshit, unless you mop floors...

Believe what you want. I'm not a care provider but my company makes things you use daily in your job. The products I work with are specifically designed to make YOUR job easier.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
FME: I'll jump in and save someone from drowning, or run into their house if its on fire to try to get them out, or stop if there is a car accident and someone is injured. That doesn't mean I should pay for a fence around their pool, pay to rebuild their house, or pay their healthcare bill.

M: Will you pay taxes to have a provide a life guard or a fire department for when you aren't around to help out or in case it's you who is in trouble?

Sure, but I won't pay to rebuild their house or pay all their medical bills. With 47% of the people not paying any federal taxes. The question is what are those 47% paying to help others with? Nothing. Why should I as a dual income no kids family get screwed while the people with 8 kids who use the parks, playgrounds, schools, and TONS of medical care pay nothing?

You should go live in Mexico, dude. You'd love it down there. You can live like a king in your very own third world shithole.

And you should really stick to the facts for once. No one is asking you to rebuild someone's house, that's what homeowner's insurance is for, or FEMA if the shit really hits the fan. No one is asking you to pay anyone's medical bills, even though right now, that's what's happening since the cost of uninsured people who mooch off the system via ER visits simply gets passed through to your insurance premiums every month. And yeah, let's live in a world where we don't bother educating our citizens or provide any alternatives to hanging out with gangs for the kids to play outside safely.

Yeah, bro, Mexico is lookin' pretty good right about now, huh?

I didn't say we shouldn't pay for these things. I'm asking why its MY responsibility to pay for it and not the 47% who are much more of a burden on society with multiple kids who use things like parks, roads, healthcare MUCH more than I do.. they polute more.. they eat more, they drink more, they produce more sewage.. Yet, *I* am being told I don't care enough.. yet *I* am the one paying for this.. along with 53% of my fellow Americans. The other 47% should get all those things, for FREE, and then bitch that its not good enough.

So now I am being told I should ALSO pay for everyone's healthcare. Do you not see why I might be a little miffed about that? If we have UHC, we should have universal taxation as well.. not just those of us who have made good choices in life or chosen not to live beyond our means.

Well, for starters, Obama claims his healthcare reforms won't be signed if they add one dime to the deficit. So, assuming this can be done, you aren't paying any more to make sure the uninsured get some basic level of health insurance.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Again with people wishing physical harm on me. I'll look poast that and try to address you points without wishing harm on you.

He did nothing of the kind. Stop it with your victim mentality.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Again with people wishing physical harm on me. I'll look poast that and try to address you points without wishing harm on you.

He did nothing of the kind. Stop it with your victim mentality.

when you get mangled in a car wreck be sure to tell the ER staff they suck for getting paid...especially the surgeon that is going to put you back together at 4am on a holiday.

I guess thats him wishing me good fortune? Besides the fact I never said anything about healthcare workers sucking.. quite the opposite.. I think they are heroes.. But I don't think UHC will help THEM or the patients.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Well, for starters, Obama claims his healthcare reforms won't be signed if they add one dime to the deficit. So, assuming this can be done, you aren't paying any more to make sure the uninsured get some basic level of health insurance.

Obama can CLAIM all he wants.. that doesn't mean he is telling the truth OR that he can actually pull it off. Before we put 1/6th of our economy under the government's control.. should we be SURE this is possible? I've seen no evidence to show any of what Obama claims is even remotely close to true.

Also, we currently provide BASIC levels of healthcare to the uninsured. I thought the whole point of this was to provide more than basic level care, to provide equal coverage for all without regard of their ability to pay or pre-existing conditions.

Also, if we are going to shift the responsibility of PAYING from the current percentage of people who have insurance to the 53% of people who currently pay Federal Taxes.. I DO think _MY_ cost is going to go up, regardless if overall costs do.

 

[imported_mateo]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Again with people wishing physical harm on me. I'll look poast that and try to address you points without wishing harm on you.

One of the big criticisms people use against insurance companies is that they profit off the suffering of people. I thought I would turn that same argument against the Healthcare workers themselves. If you find that argument unfair, I think you may have actually stumbled upon my point.. if its unfair to use it against Healthcare workers themselves, its probably unfair to use it against Insurance Companies as well?

You talk about 'fair wage' and about all the schooling you went though and how much all of the stuff you do costs. But then you say you support UHC.. which in MY mind seems to throw ALL of those things out the window. With government run Healthcare NONE of that matters. You get paid what the government says, you get to perform the procedures the government approves, you get paid what the government is willing to pay.

So while YOU think you should get paid what your worth.. and I think you should get paid what your worth.. The entire premise of UHC seems to not give a shit about any of that. There is a finite pool of money even with the government... my guess is the workers are going to be the first ones screwed in this new plan. But hey, if you want to believe that when the government takes over healthcare, everything is going to become a utopia, feel free to pass over whatever you are smoking because its some GOOD SHIT.

Pliablemoose was the one implying he and his co-workers were profiting quite nicely from their positions. Is it OK for HIM to do it, but somehow evil for insurance companies to do that? Do you see the point I am trying to make? I also find it a bit dubious that a person who admits to having profited nicely from their job in Healthcare for 25 years now suddenly has the urge to turn it all over to the government because its the 'right thing to do'. Seems like questioning his motives is fair if you are expecting me and the rest of the 53% of the population that pays Federal Taxes to become your employer.

I was not actually wishing harm on you. My point was that people in healthcare work hard for their money and it is well deserved. A large staff of people that spent years in college and an incredible amount of money has to put "you" back together in the middle of the night on Christmas. Tell them they are opportunistic, selfish, and "wrong" for being paid well as you are suggesting here...You will realize how silly that is.

I actually agree with you that insurance is often unfairly attacked and made out to be "evil". Make no doubt about it, healthcare is a business and I understand and respect that. Unfortunately the original post of yours that I was responding to had nothing to do with insurance. You were directly attacking pliablemoose and healthcare workers in general for making good money and "profiting off the suffering of others".

Oddly though, In one post you suggest that it is wrong to make good money as a healthcare worker yet in the one above you seem to defend it.

I agree with you that a total "re-construction" of our health care industy that is turned over to 100% govt control would be an utter disaster. When I say UHC thats NOT what I support nor do I think that will happen. I support a combined system of private and public insurance that operates within the healthcare system largely as it exists today. Do I have the magic recipe for that...no. Do I think we should at least move forward and try to make it happen. Absolutely.

Keep in mind, UHC may actually decrease costs and hospitalizations by giving people earlier access to the system. As it is now many wait until they are a septic trainwreck on the verge of death before they get care. Early access and proper care would in many cases have prevented any hospitalization.

I think you and I just have different visions on what UHC means and can be.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Believe what you want. I'm not a care provider but my company makes things you use daily in your job.

And the truth comes out...