Are we in seriously deep doo doo?

[Zebo]

People have still not waken up to the problem. Most are still waiting for the government to fix things. Credit should have never been given to people for small purchases .

Think about this. If credit had only been reserved for large purchases then most consumers would not be in as much trouble as they are now. Getting a credit card is far too easy and people fill them up with little purchases and a lot of them are impulse buys. Something like a car or home though takes time to purchase, lots of paperwork and signing and does make the buyer consider more about if they want to do it .

For the past 3 years I have lived credit free. I do not owe banks, credit cards, unions,mortgage or anything else. I have been living strictly on cash and I think more people need to do that. Make a law that says default on a debt and not only does your score lower but you can get no credit anywhere for 1 year. I have learned in the past 3 years after only using cash that I am missing out on nothing. There is nothing I would have now that would make my life better because I used credit.

I make purchases wiser than ever before. When I go to stores and something I see is going to cost me a weeks pay then I don't get it or decide if I can really afford it. Instead of financing a new car I open a savings account. This is something my aunt taught me. She always buys a new car but has never financed one. She buys a new car, and on that day starts putting money into a savings account. Within 5-6 years when the current car needs to be replaced she takes the money out and buys a new one and the process repeats. If you cannot save up to buy something then you shouldn't buy it with credit either unless it is something that would take a really long time to get like a car. Putting multiple $50 purchases or food on credit thinking it will be paid later is a trap many people fall into. Use cash and cut up the card.

I know people will say that their card gives them all this cash back and bonus discounts. Where do people think the cards get the money to make those offers ?


Americans are more consumer goods oriented than other nations. People in the USA tend to want things and they want them now . They use them as a way to judge their success in life. Spending more and having more possessions = I will be happier in many minds. If they can't spend they get depressed so they turn to credit. Until people realize that possessions does not equal self worth nothing will change. There is nobody who can not live off what they earn in the USA as long as it is above minimum wage. They choose the lifestyle they have and have set conditions in their mind of what they think they need and almost always what they list as a need is a want.

When anyone challenges them to change their lifestyle to fit what they earn they react in defiance . The situation with the economy and people reminds me of the child that is never told no by his parents. The parents(government) gives them everything they want so when they ask for a video game and the parent says they can't afford it , the kid becomes angry at the parent. The kid pouts because he expects the parents to do what he wants . Instead of getting a job and buying that video game the kid stays at home complaining to the parent. The same thing all the people waiting for the government to fix things are doing.

Credit has it's uses but you should have some skin in the game and be worthy of risk. Not like we did loaning $700,000 to a hairdresser on her word she makes $150,000 then give her a 125% HELOC loan to take vacations and buy Hummers. Just crazy.

Credit is an equalizer and opportunity maker and a necessary part of any healthy economy. The problems arise when you're leverage too much and defaults start occurring or you give away production for leverage and easy credit like we did which accounts for our current disaster.

Anyway as far as buying a new car - you never should. They depreciate 25-50% in first year and you can't tell a lick of difference between brand new and one year so why pay more for nothing??? Buy 1 year old domestics for half off!! For example a couple years ago we purchased a 2007 Towncar for 21K when retail is over 43K

 

[LegendKiller]

Good post above. But lets view this from another perspective. What if you KNOW that this system of economics is damaged beyond redemption. If you have 401 K account your going to lose all that . if not all most . If the system fails would it not be prudent to run credit card bills up . If the system fails you lose your 401K. Your not going to have to pay those credit bills. I have stayed debt free . But everthing I do now is credit . My wife had over a half million in 401k . She going to lose all that . I recently talked her into borrowing as much as she could from it . Which was a considerable amount . Every week she has to pay out of her check . The sweet part is she is paying the 8% interest to herself . She bought gold as I instructed and now she is thinking she pretty dam smart . Because her 401k money is earning 8% interest no matter what. And Gold is going up . So there is more than 1 way to deal with current events . depending on YOUR perspective . In a normal environment I agree with you 100% in this environment I think we are approaching this correctly . We can't lose eoither way . The only thing not protected is the 401k money she couldn't borrow.

Ok, first off, i highly doubt your wife has $500K in her 401k. I don't peg you as somebody that is too old, nor that well off. Second, I have been invested in 3 major 401k plans, none of which allow borrowing more than $50K. So, let's assume you did that, that means you have 40z of gold. Wow, big fucking deal. That's nothing and you're still "losing" 90% of your money once the market crashes (lol).

What's even funnier is that you're paying that money back as the loan amortizes. Usually over 5 years (most of the time max term for 401k loan except for house loans). So then you have to liquidate the gold anyway, or use current earnings do buy it. Thus, you've gained nothing and are still 100% at risk as the loan amortizes (at 2% per year, or so). Most 401k loan programs don't allow more than 1 loan outstanding, thus, the absolute amortization.

Second, you aren't "making" 8%, you're paying yourself 8%, you aren't "earning" it, you are shifting it from your bank account to your 401k account as your loan amortizes. Money you are "earning" is on the investment gain of the loan funds invested versus the 401k gains, minus transaction costs.

Depending on when you did this it might have been a good move, as gold has done well thus far. However, if it was done in March last year, you were a moron. So you're still going to lose it, no matter what. Then you have gold, which will be worthless anyway.

Furthermore, now you're wife has a loan. Since he will likely lose her job in a downturn the government can then take ~43% of her remaining 401k if she doesn't pay back the loan. To do that you have to liquidate the gold anyway.

Thus, no matter what, you're fucked.

Then you say she will "lose it all". Sure fuckwit, the world will end and every company will automatically be worth $0. All wealth will disappear and nobody will buy anything, ever again.

Are you a fucking moron? Ohh wait, judging from above, you're a fucking liar AND a fucking moron. You're a disgrace to Minnesota, get the fuck out of my great home state.

 

[LegendKiller]

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no economist but it just makes sense to me.

Over 30 years Wall Street and congress convinced us to outsource our production and we consumed more than we produced by taking on major debt. Same Wall Street now flush with cash by paying slave wages abroad and raking in record profit selling us stuff and new producers abroad loaned us trillions of dollars and turned us from a production based economy into a massively leveraged consumption economy. Americans have borrowed more money in the past twenty years than America borrowed in the prior 200.

We relied on unprecedented borrowing personally, business, municipal, federal to feed our families and 'grow' our businesses.

Now with Americans tapped, Wall Street understanding this end game is cutting of credit and America is shutting down since our entire economy was primarily dependent on leveraged consumption...What's even more disgusting is corrupt politicians are still at it, fucking Americans, like they did encouraging us to lose our production, we bailed out Wall Street while they cut us off.

Zebo warned of this cataclysm since I've been blogging on AT only to be called everything from and isolationist to a racist when times were good (i.e. loans were flowing) but it turns out Zebo was one of the few that really knew......

There are still a couple more shoes to drop. These Financial Terrorists will eventually cut off credit from our cities, counties, states, schools, and hospitals and these are very large employers in our economy....

Enjoy the next phase....which will be you having to work for wages and getting services somewhere between China and India if you want the jobs back. Oh but you owe a lot more, in national debt we are all joint and severally liable for, so you might have to skip on the rice tonight.

What's funny is while most of the nation is broke the bankers are richer than ever and can take all your leveraged property as well if you don't work for the hellish market they created. Slavery is what that used to be called.

First off, it's not "wall street" that has been driving the exportation of jobs, it is investors demanding profits. Considering that 75% of companies are institutionally owned, mostly mutual and pension funds (which all investors are linked to in some way), you're directly benefiting the outsourcing through increased profits.

Second, nobody is "demanding" it. A company that makes a widget that eventually comes under competitive pressure will likely eventually have to outsource as competitors try to undercut the original producer in price to gather more customers. Unless all customers are discerning and care about where the product is made (turning their back on better prices and the 2nd company) the first company will inevitably lose.

Considering that a large portions of our manufacturing, such as cars, not only came under pressure from price, but also quality, you get the current conundrum. Do you cut prices, taking worse profit, punishing the stock price (considering stock prices are a direct reflection of what the company is worth (profit) in the future), or do you build higher quality, or do you just die?

Blaming "wall street" is moronic. Blame main street. They are the purchasers of shit goods. Blame every single person who goes and buys non-American goods. Blame the unions for not making concessions and continually asking for inflation-exceeding wages.


As far as the debt goes, debt isn't bad. Even our current debt load isn't bad. Our production wasn't fueled 100% by debt, not even close. Saying that forgets that wealth begets wealth and the debt will pay down eventually while the assets/services will likely level off, or keep increasing at a rate slightly above inflation (taking into account new demand from population).

 

[LegendKiller]

Credit has it's uses but you should have some skin in the game and be worthy of risk. Not like we did loaning $700,000 to a hairdresser on her word she makes $150,000 then give her a 125% HELOC loan to take vacations and buy Hummers. Just crazy.

Credit is an equalizer and opportunity maker and a necessary part of any healthy economy. The problems arise when you're leverage too much and defaults start occurring or you give away production for leverage and easy credit like we did which accounts for our current disaster.

Anyway as far as buying a new car - you never should. They depreciate 25-50% in first year and you can't tell a lick of difference between brand new and one year so why pay more for nothing??? Buy 1 year old domestics for half off!! For example a couple years ago we purchased a 2007 Towncar for 21K when retail is over 43K

This is correct. Using leverage to buy money-producing assets or even those that provide significant intrinsic value (such as houses or cars), is not a horrible thing. Even if you use it to push forward consumption, it isn't horrible provided it is done in moderation and you can pay off the consumption easily.

Paying cash for a new car? Ridiculous. The opportunity cost of that is massive.

 

[JSt0rm]

This is correct. Using leverage to buy money-producing assets or even those that provide significant intrinsic value (such as houses or cars), is not a horrible thing. Even if you use it to push forward consumption, it isn't horrible provided it is done in moderation and you can pay off the consumption easily.

Paying cash for a new car? Ridiculous. The opportunity cost of that is massive.

I bought my car with cash. Its payed off and I bought it at 28k miles. I save big on insurance for it every month. At the time the stock market was fine. I think I made the right choice putting that money in a car vs the stock market.

 

[Zebo]

First off, it's not "wall street" that has been driving the exportation of jobs, it is investors demanding profits. Considering that 75% of companies are institutionally owned, mostly mutual and pension funds (which all investors are linked to in some way), you're directly benefiting the outsourcing through increased profits.

Second, nobody is "demanding" it. A company that makes a widget that eventually comes under competitive pressure will likely eventually have to outsource as competitors try to undercut the original producer in price to gather more customers. Unless all customers are discerning and care about where the product is made (turning their back on better prices and the 2nd company) the first company will inevitably lose.

Considering that a large portions of our manufacturing, such as cars, not only came under pressure from price, but also quality, you get the current conundrum. Do you cut prices, taking worse profit, punishing the stock price (considering stock prices are a direct reflection of what the company is worth (profit) in the future), or do you build higher quality, or do you just die?

Blaming "wall street" is moronic. Blame main street. They are the purchasers of shit goods. Blame every single person who goes and buys non-American goods. Blame the unions for not making concessions and continually asking for inflation-exceeding wages.


As far as the debt goes, debt isn't bad. Even our current debt load isn't bad. Our production wasn't fueled 100% by debt, not even close. Saying that forgets that wealth begets wealth and the debt will pay down eventually while the assets/services will likely level off, or keep increasing at a rate slightly above inflation (taking into account new demand from population).

Can't disagree with blaming consumers for putting food on Chinese tables instead of their own. But now on many items you have no choice you must buy foreign if you want it.

Yes I blame Wall Street and politicians, they pimped a twisted message of comparative advantage on unsuspecting people while blocking other economist viewpoints like the god father of comparative advantage David Ricardo who said never give up your absolute advantage which is working conditions, non police states & technology among other things for free trade least you become them. And we'll get there.

 

[Zebo]

I bought my car with cash. Its payed off and I bought it at 28k miles. I save big on insurance for it every month. At the time the stock market was fine. I think I made the right choice putting that money in a car vs the stock market.

LOL you really think that? Common JS you're smarter than that.

I don't care what stock market is it will be worth more than your car in 10 years. And I hate stock market -den of thieves. One is an asset while the other is a liability.

 

[LegendKiller]

Can't disagree with blaming consumers for putting food on Chinese tables instead of their own. But now on many items you have no choice you must buy foreign if you want it.

Yes I blame Wall Street and politicians, they pimped a twisted message of comparative advantage on unsuspecting people while blocking other economist viewpoints like the god father of comparative advantage David Ricardo who said never give up your absolute advantage which is working conditions, non police states & technology among other things for free trade least you become them. And we'll get there.

Being competitive is the key aspect. We benefited form the outsourcing through higher profits and lower cost of goods. We suffered from outsourced jobs. I agree that overall it was a bad trade. However, you have to acknowledge the benefits.

Unions need to realize they can't keep expecting high wage increases that make the companies less profitable if they are facing competition from foreign workers.

But do not forget, for the last 50-100 years the world has "outsourced" it's own innovation, manufacturing, and goods to the US. We had our own cycle of good fortune at the expense of much of the world.

 

[JSt0rm]

LOL you really think that? Common JS you're smarter than that.

I don't care what stock market is it will be worth more than your car in 10 years. And I hate stock market -den of thieves. One is an asset while the other is a liability.

I've actually given up on the entire concept of the stock market at this point in my life. I'm investing in myself and my buisness and I couldnt be happier. I'm my own boss, I'm doing my dream job and their is growth. ()

 

[Zebo]

Being competitive is the key aspect. We benefited form the outsourcing through higher profits and lower cost of goods. We suffered from outsourced jobs. I agree that overall it was a bad trade. However, you have to acknowledge the benefits.

Unions need to realize they can't keep expecting high wage increases that make the companies less profitable if they are facing competition from foreign workers.

But do not forget, for the last 50-100 years the world has "outsourced" it's own innovation, manufacturing, and goods to the US. We had our own cycle of good fortune at the expense of much of the world.

Fair post. Lets not forget either we had no competition as world was destroyed by war and communism. Yeah, Americans are going to have to get religion again like our grandparents after GD. TANSTAAFL.

 

[Zebo]

I've actually given up on the entire concept of the stock market at this point in my life. I'm investing in myself and my buisness and I couldnt be happier. I'm my own boss, I'm doing my dream job and their is growth. ()

Awesome. That's what I've been doing since 2003 and could not be happier. You'll definitely reap better return if you offer a great product or service than men in NYC will get you IME.

So of course your business bought the car you drive on pre tax earnings instead of post tax personal income right?

 

[IronWing]

Being competitive is the key aspect. We benefited form the outsourcing through higher profits and lower cost of goods. We suffered from outsourced jobs. I agree that overall it was a bad trade. However, you have to acknowledge the benefits.

Unions need to realize they can't keep expecting high wage increases that make the companies less profitable if they are facing competition from foreign workers.

But do not forget, for the last 50-100 years the world has "outsourced" it's own innovation, manufacturing, and goods to the US. We had our own cycle of good fortune at the expense of much of the world.

I think the main transformation in our economy has been from the productivity based model of the industrial revolution back to the rent based model of the pre-industrial era. Americans have gone from gaining wealth through production to gaining wealth through ownership and rent collection, whether it be collecting rents on money, rents on property, or rents on intellectual property. The system breaks down when others decide they don't want to or don't have to rent stuff from us anymore like dollars or intellectual property. Our patent system and particularly our copyright laws reflect this shift from creativity/productivity to rental income on owned assets. Our IP laws have gotten to the point where rent collection on old properties trumps the original intent of these laws which was encouragement of innovation.

This transformation to rent collecting can also be seen in our drive for the "financial innovations" of the past 30 years where the banks and investors tried to find new ways to squeeze more juice from the same old turnips instead of investing in new turnips.

 

[JSt0rm]

Awesome. That's what I've been doing since 2003 and could not be happier. You'll definitely reap better return if you offer a great product or service than men in NYC will get you IME.

So of course your business bought the car on pre tax income instead of post tax personal income right?

Unfortunately no but I do write off a shit ton of toys ()

 

[Zebo]

Unfortunately no but I do write off a shit ton of toys ()

Business needs lots of capital equipment and assets to succeed. Everyone knows this.

Hell just the other day I was giving a power point on a 50" LCD TV for my employee. Imagine trying to do that with flash cards or something. Fail fail fail.

 

[Jhhnn]

Unions need to realize they can't keep expecting high wage increases that make the companies less profitable if they are facing competition from foreign workers.

Unions? What about the investor class, the top .1% of the population, who've demonstrably benefited more than anybody else over the last 30 years? Does their share get to keep growing while everybody else takes less?

 

[Zebo]

I think the main transformation in our economy has been from the productivity based model of the industrial revolution back to the rent based model of the pre-industrial era. Americans have gone from gaining wealth through production to gaining wealth through ownership and rent collection, whether it be collecting rents on money, rents on property, or rents on intellectual property. The system breaks down when others decide they don't want to or don't have to rent stuff from us anymore like dollars or intellectual property. Our patent system and particularly our copyright laws reflect this shift from creativity/productivity to rental income on owned assets. Our IP laws have gotten to the point where rent collection on old properties trumps the original intent of these laws which was encouragement of innovation.

This transformation to rent collecting can also be seen in our drive for the "financial innovations" of the past 30 years where the banks and investors tried to find new ways to squeeze more juice from the same old turnips instead of investing in new turnips.

Mickey Mouse law. Perpetual copyright etc won't keep our heads above water because the rest of the world does not give a fuck. Ultimately it comes down to real goods we consume that must equilibrate with what we produce and there will be some hard work ahead. My survival faq is not joke as anthropologically we are unprepared for toil ahead with about 100 million deadbeats about to be cut off.

 

[Zebo]

Unions? What about the investor class, the top .1% of the population, who've demonstrably benefited more than anybody else over the last 30 years? Does their share get to keep growing while everybody else takes less?

Of course it does. Wall Street bankers got bailed out by us and record profits while they cut us off. Politicians in IL are getting pay raises while cutting social welfare and having 13 billion dollar shortfall. Right now it's every man for him self until people WTFU and relize they have power and exercise it. I won't hold my breath until SHTF, stravation has a way of making people come to reality.

 

[Jhhnn]

Mickey Mouse law. Perpetual copyright etc won't keep our heads above water because the rest of the world does not give a fuck. Ultimately it comes down to real goods we consume that must equilibrate with what we produce and there will be some hard work ahead. My survival faq is not joke as anthropologically we are unprepared for toil ahead with about 100 million deadbeats about to be cut off.

Your post fairly oozes with smug self righteousness, as if there were some sort of moral superiority in having kept your job in the recent cataclysm. There isn't. It's largely a matter of luck, with unemployment cutting across all sectors of the economy and all social and educational strata other than the tippy-top, the financially indestructible. It's not like all those people got fired because they weren't doing their jobs, at all, so we need to quit pretending that it is.

 

[Zebo]

Your post fairly oozes with smug self righteousness, as if there were some sort of moral superiority in having kept your job in the recent cataclysm. There isn't. It's largely a matter of luck, with unemployment cutting across all sectors of the economy and all social and educational strata other than the tippy-top, the financially indestructible. It's not like all those people got fired because they weren't doing their jobs, at all, so we need to quit pretending that it is.

No there are deadbeats sorry. There are people in America breed to be so with no work requirement for social welfare (workfare). Totally unemployable, uneducated, unethical and immoral. I don't have a "job" I own a liquor store and other business with invests in O&G property and see them all the time in store. I used to build homes and saw them there too. This needs to be addressed.

For the people who lost thier jobs though no fault of thier own I do feel bad. and I'm totally with you on terrible gini index, tax code which favors investment class etc. But until people wake up like you have nothing will change.

There is no such thing as luck. See my explanation why economy is in doldrums it was simple action and reaction.

Oh and you're right, I'm an asshole sometimes.

 

[LegendKiller]

Unions? What about the investor class, the top .1% of the population, who've demonstrably benefited more than anybody else over the last 30 years? Does their share get to keep growing while everybody else takes less?

You mean the ones where they get taxes on 30% of their cap gains? Or the ones that provide capital to businesses to grow? Or do you mean the ones that consume a large amount of goods/services, giving people jobs?

Yeah, they contribute little.

So now you believe in outright wealth redistribution?

I do agree that there needs to be some adjustment on the margin for the wealthier. However, the double-digit increases in wages for unions and the massively ballooning pensions are a huge problem. When 50% of your budget comes *JUST* from pension contributions, or your contributions are 10x those of the pensioner, there is a huge problem also.

 

[LegendKiller]

I think the main transformation in our economy has been from the productivity based model of the industrial revolution back to the rent based model of the pre-industrial era. Americans have gone from gaining wealth through production to gaining wealth through ownership and rent collection, whether it be collecting rents on money, rents on property, or rents on intellectual property. The system breaks down when others decide they don't want to or don't have to rent stuff from us anymore like dollars or intellectual property. Our patent system and particularly our copyright laws reflect this shift from creativity/productivity to rental income on owned assets. Our IP laws have gotten to the point where rent collection on old properties trumps the original intent of these laws which was encouragement of innovation.

This transformation to rent collecting can also be seen in our drive for the "financial innovations" of the past 30 years where the banks and investors tried to find new ways to squeeze more juice from the same old turnips instead of investing in new turnips.

There are a lot of new turnips that were made and invested in, the financial innovation was due to lower margin among mature product areas, its a simple enough equation. Mature businesses are less profitable as they become commoditized. That's life, the business cycle. There's nothing evil or nefarious.

I saw it when I worked at a major HDD manufacturer. The commoditization of HDDs resulted in a lot of turmoil, acquisitions, bankruptcies...etc, all the while manufacturing was put offshore due to ever shrinking margins demanded by consumers and competition.

Making money from manufacturing quickly goes away from the raw material input, as the input is new and more rare, to purely marginal expense from wages. Overhead is marginalized by mass production, as is the raw input, but wages will always stick around.

Simple economics.

 

[Zebo]

You mean the ones where they get taxes on 30% of their cap gains? Or the ones that provide capital to businesses to grow? Or do you mean the ones that consume a large amount of goods/services, giving people jobs?

Yeah, they contribute little.

So now you believe in outright wealth redistribution?

I do agree that there needs to be some adjustment on the margin for the wealthier. However, the double-digit increases in wages for unions and the massively ballooning pensions are a huge problem. When 50% of your budget comes *JUST* from pension contributions, or your contributions are 10x those of the pensioner, there is a huge problem also.

You forgot about LTCG 15% not to mention reduced taxes (no SS/MC/UC) on unearned income.

Income is income IMO. Doesn't seem right a man working gets taxed more as a percentage than a guy fishing whose wells are going cha ching cha ching all day or who retains earnings only to sell out later for almost no taxes

I'm not saying go after them for 90% of some shit but you need balance bro.

Oh and investment does not always have to create jobs. You can short too, in effect bet against making jobs.

 

[Jhhnn]

You mean the ones where they get taxes on 30% of their cap gains? Or the ones that provide capital to businesses to grow? Or do you mean the ones that consume a large amount of goods/services, giving people jobs?

Yeah, they contribute little.

So now you believe in outright wealth redistribution?

I do agree that there needs to be some adjustment on the margin for the wealthier. However, the double-digit increases in wages for unions and the massively ballooning pensions are a huge problem. When 50% of your budget comes *JUST* from pension contributions, or your contributions are 10x those of the pensioner, there is a huge problem also.

Now you're just making shit up to suit your own purposes. What 30% on capital gains? America's 400 largest incomes paid <18% federal taxes in 2009, on incomes averaging $260M+... "Giving people jobs"? You just hit on the problem, in a backhanded sort of way- that's precisely what they're *not* doing ATM

What double digit wage increases for unions? Cite examples, don't just talk trash.

Pensions take up too much of the corporate budget? Well, duh! That's what happens when everything gets outsourced and offshored- the workforce shrinks, fewer people contribute to the pension fund to keep it afloat.

Redistribution of income? That's a feature of all modern economies, at least ones that continue to function, and has been since the last great financial catastrophe. It's not that it's desirable, but rather necessary. Failure to do so effectively is what's put us in the same situation all over again.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Ok, first off, i highly doubt your wife has $500K in her 401k. I don't peg you as somebody that is too old, nor that well off. Second, I have been invested in 3 major 401k plans, none of which allow borrowing more than $50K. So, let's assume you did that, that means you have 40z of gold. Wow, big fucking deal. That's nothing and you're still "losing" 90&#37; of your money once the market crashes (lol).

What's even funnier is that you're paying that money back as the loan amortizes. Usually over 5 years (most of the time max term for 401k loan except for house loans). So then you have to liquidate the gold anyway, or use current earnings do buy it. Thus, you've gained nothing and are still 100% at risk as the loan amortizes (at 2% per year, or so). Most 401k loan programs don't allow more than 1 loan outstanding, thus, the absolute amortization.

Second, you aren't "making" 8%, you're paying yourself 8%, you aren't "earning" it, you are shifting it from your bank account to your 401k account as your loan amortizes. Money you are "earning" is on the investment gain of the loan funds invested versus the 401k gains, minus transaction costs.

Depending on when you did this it might have been a good move, as gold has done well thus far. However, if it was done in March last year, you were a moron. So you're still going to lose it, no matter what. Then you have gold, which will be worthless anyway.

Furthermore, now you're wife has a loan. Since he will likely lose her job in a downturn the government can then take ~43% of her remaining 401k if she doesn't pay back the loan. To do that you have to liquidate the gold anyway.

Thus, no matter what, you're fucked.

Then you say she will "lose it all". Sure fuckwit, the world will end and every company will automatically be worth $0. All wealth will disappear and nobody will buy anything, ever again.

Are you a fucking moron? Ohh wait, judging from above, you're a fucking liar AND a fucking moron. You're a disgrace to Minnesota, get the fuck out of my great home state.

Just let me say something . I am 59 and my wife has put in 38 years at her job. Were small town . and Its a small company . My wife is allowed to take out half her money on loan . Her sister took out more than that on hardship. You don't know nothing about me .

Further more as far as being disgraceful. The way you adderess others on the internet. Were your not standing in a Mans face is disgraceful and cowardice. Your a norsman by virtue of your barbarism online . Which sugjest in real life your a mouthy coward.

If you disagree with what I say thats fine . But you adderess me and only me. You know how things work in your little world you do not know how it works in ever one elses world. If you think everthing works the same for everone and all things are equal . You have to get a grasp on reality. This world isn't fair . I am sorry you can only get a small percentage of your 401k on hardship only . Maybe you should be closer to the people who sign the checks and do the paper work.

As for the rest of what got your ass bound up try some prune juice, I am not far off on what I say and there good reason that it has to be generalized. As it is am just a nut case shouting off mouth . Harmless. If it was anything more than things change and everthing moves faster.

 

[Zebo]

nm