Are churches looking for a showdown with the IRS?

[Texashiker]

I wonder if Christians are looking for a showdown with the irs?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/11/03/pastors-endorsing-candidates-in-defiance-irs-rules/

Christian pastors reportedly are defying IRS rules and endorsing political candidates at an unprecedented rate.

Under IRS rules, nonprofits -- such as churches -- are allowed to discuss politically sensitive subjects in their sermons, but historically have been barred from actively campaigning and endorsing particular candidates. But a growing number of pastors are challenging that standard – and the IRS may be looking the other way.

Why should a government agency have the ability to restrict our rights? The IRS rules flies in the face of our right to political speech.

I figure christian organizations are looking for a showdown with the IRS. Which would end up at the supreme court, with the supreme court ruling a government agency does not have the ability to restrict speech.

 

[Ryland]

No tax exempt organization is allowed to interfere with politics, its not just churches.

 

[Texashiker]

No tax exempt organization is allowed to interfere with politics, its not just churches.

Says who? The irs?

As I said, what gives a government agency the ability to restrict our freedom of speech?

Didn't the supreme court uphold corporate donations as a type of political speech? Why should a company be allowed to have its rights protected, but a churches rights are not protected?

 

[Uppsala9496]

Separation of church and state or something....

 

[WelshBloke]

Why should a government agency have the ability to restrict our rights? The IRS rules flies in the face of our right to political speech.

They can say whatever they want, no one's stopping them from saying anything that anyone else can say.

They just have to play by the same rules as everyone else then.

 

[TheSlamma]

They can say whatever they want, no one's stopping them from saying anything that anyone else can say.

They just have to play by the same rules as everyone else then.

Really this should be the end of this thread since it's the truth and logical, but of course we know how this will go from here one *sigh*

 

[PokerGuy]

Why should a government agency have the ability to restrict our rights? The IRS rules flies in the face of our right to political speech.

Nobody is restricting their rights in any way. They are free to engage in politics and endorse whoever they want. If they do so, they need to pay taxes like anyone else. If you want to qualify as a tax exempt religious entity, then you have to abide by the rules governing tax exempt status. Can't have your cake and eat it to. They want to be treated as "different" (tax exempt) because they are a church, but then don't want to be treated "different" in terms of restrictions. Can't have it both ways.

Normally, they'd get smacked down by the IRS (and the courts), but the IRS -- having just been caught abusing conservative citizens -- doesn't feel like coming under further scrutiny for taking on these folks.

 

[Texashiker]

Really this should be the end of this thread since it's the truth and logical, but of course we know how this will go from here one *sigh*

Are you seriously that dumb?

The government can not tax a right.

Just as the government can not establish a poll tax, nor can the government tax a religion.

edit

There is a clause in the us constitution that directly mentions taxation and churches. I am trying to find it.

 

[PottedMeat]

Really this should be the end of this thread since it's the truth and logical, but of course we know how this will go from here one *sigh*

:awe:


if they want to endorse, let's also talk about how much revenues would increase and what we can spend it on (definitely not paying down debt )

 

[TheSlamma]

Are you seriously that dumb?

The government can not tax a right.

Just as the government can not establish a poll tax, nor can the government tax a religion.

edit

There is a clause in the us constitution that directly mentions taxation and churches. I am trying to find it.

Tax exemption is not a 'right'

and freedom of speech doesn't grant tax exemption.

 

[Texashiker]

Tax exemption is not a 'right'

and freedom of speech doesn't grant tax exemption.

Rights can not be taxed.

Deuteronomy 14:22

Make an offering of ten percent, a tithe, of all the produce which grows in your fields year after year.

People are entitled to the free exercise of their religion. Taxing a religion does not make it free.

 

[WelshBloke]

Rights can not be taxed.

People are entitled to the free exercise of their religion. Taxing a religion does not make it free.

They aren't having their rights or religion taxed, they would be having their earnings taxed. Like everyone else.

 

[TheSlamma]

Rights can not be taxed.

Deuteronomy 14:22

People are entitled to the free exercise of their religion. Taxing a religion does not make it free.

So you are willing to let Muslims come over here and practice all of their voodoo out of the Koran like you Christians do with that roll of toilet paper you call the bible?

 

[fskimospy]

Rights can not be taxed.

Deuteronomy 14:22

People are entitled to the free exercise of their religion. Taxing a religion does not make it free.

Haha, another time where Texashiker thinks things he supports should be given special privileges while in other threads always complaining about the special privileges of others.

If churches want to stay tax-exempt they need to follow the same rules as everyone else. This is 100% their choice. Churches are not inherently immune from taxation.

 

[smackababy]

If churches get to start campaigning for candidates, I can't wait for the NFL to! Free football stadiums for every team, every 3 years! Carrie Underwood will have created our new national anthem! We can get an instant replay review system on Congressional acts!

 

[Texashiker]

They aren't having their rights or religion taxed, they would be having their earnings taxed. Like everyone else.

Those are not earnings, those are donations.

If churches want to stay tax-exempt they need to follow the same rules as everyone else. This is 100% their choice. Churches are not inherently immune from taxation.

Lets levee a $100 tax on everyone who votes democrat, sound ok to you?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Churches are not inherently immune from taxation.

Yes, they are. Does the gov't tax foreign embassies?

 

[fskimospy]

Lets levee a $100 tax on everyone who votes democrat, sound ok to you?

Nonsensical response as nothing like that is happening here.

What you're effectively asking for is a $100 tax break for everyone who votes Republican and then whining yet again about how oppressed you are that you can't get another special privilege.

 

[TheSlamma]

Those are not earnings, those are donations.




Lets levee a $100 tax on everyone who votes democrat, sound ok to you?

So that was a no on all rights for other religions I take it? Constitution only applies to the Texas Christian bible?

When is your bias posting time done here?

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, they are. Does the gov't tax foreign embassies?

Uhmm, no they aren't.

What legal precedent are you basing your argument that churches are inherently immune from taxation on?

 

[Texashiker]

Nonsensical response as nothing like that is happening here.

What you're effectively asking for is a $100 tax break for everyone who votes Republican and then whining yet again about how oppressed you are that you can't get another special privilege.

Church exemptions from taxation are grounded in old English law, and as such are seen as common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England

other forms of taxation are implied by the grant of an exemption from taxation given by another king, Wihtred of Kent, to a church.

Taxes have been used as a form of retaliation.

http://www.crf-usa.org/foundations-of-our-constitution/magna-carta.html

John retaliated by taxing the Church in England, confiscating its lands and forcing many priests to leave their parishes.

 

[fskimospy]

Church exemptions from taxation are grounded in old English law, and as such are seen as common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England

Taxes have been used as a form of retaliation.

http://www.crf-usa.org/foundations-of-our-constitution/magna-carta.html

Today I learned that churches are inherently immune from taxation in the US because of medieval English law.

Please feel free to cite US law supporting your contention.

 

[Texashiker]

Today I learned that churches are inherently immune from taxation in the US because of medieval English law.

Please feel free to cite US law supporting your contention.

Where do you think our concept of no taxation without representation comes from? The Magna Carta.

What was one of the issues that caused people to revolt? Taxation of churchs and seizing church land by King John.

All through history taxes have been used as a form of punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscus_Judaicus

The fiscus Iudaicus (Latin for "Jewish tax") or fiscus Judaicus was a tax-collecting agency instituted to collect the tax imposed on Jews in the Roman Empire after the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in AD 70. Revenues were directed to the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus in Rome.

Ensuring religion is exempt from taxes also ensures religions are not punished by a given group.

Catholics can not punish baptist by raising taxes.
Christians can not punish jews by raising taxes.
Jews can not punish christians by raising taxes.

 

[thraashman]

Can we start charging a tax on every stupid post in P&N? It might cut down on many of these Texashiker threads that have an idiotic premise.

 

[CPA]

nm