Are churches looking for a showdown with the IRS?

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I don't understand? Does this have anything to do with post #152?

Perhaps I phrased it poorly. (I don't remember what I wrote.)

The point is that taxes cannot be used to abridge rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

Fern

What gave you the idea that taxes couldn't be levied on rights guaranteed in the constitution?

Taxes on a right guaranteed in the constitution face the same hurdle as any other restriction on those rights. If they meet the standard, tax away!

I don't even know why that's at issue here. Churches don't have a right to have contributions to them be tax deductible, the IRS has precedential support for denying tax exemptions to those who engage in political activity. Game. Set. Match.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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What gave you the idea that taxes couldn't be levied on rights guaranteed in the constitution?

Taxes on a right guaranteed in the constitution face the same hurdle as any other restriction on those rights. If they meet the standard, tax away!

I don't even know why that's at issue here. Churches don't have a right to have contributions to them be tax deductible, the IRS has precedential support for denying tax exemptions to those who engage in political activity. Game. Set. Match.

My remarks you quoted are not specific to, or even aimed at, the church issue.

If you think taxes can be used to abridge constitutional rights, fine. I suppose we'll see a state like Mississippi impose a $5,000 tax on abortions and, apparently, according to you the court will uphold it.

I expect we'll actually see this in court. IIRC, IL is considering taxing guns and ammo. If they go through with it a challenge is certain.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,947
55,304
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My remarks you quoted are not specific to, or even aimed at, the church issue.

If you think taxes can be used to abridge constitutional rights, fine. I suppose we'll see a state like Mississippi impose a $5,000 tax on abortions and, apparently, according to you the court will uphold it.

I expect we'll actually see this in court. IIRC, IL is considering taxing guns and ammo. If they go through with it a challenge is certain.

Fern

Can you explain how you think such a tax on abortion would pass strict scrutiny?

The purchase and sale of guns and ammo is already taxed through sales taxes and every gun made in the US is subject to a 10% federal tax.

So again, I'm not even sure what the argument is here. Of course we can put in place taxes on things guaranteed in the constitution, it just has to pass constitutional scrutiny.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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What about unions? They are 501c(5) organizations, not 501c(3) so the non-political rules dont apply to them.

Yes, campaign rules do apply to them.

As I noted early the portion of dues that was used by a union for campaigning must be disclosed and is NOT permitted to be deducted by the union member paying those dues.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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Can you explain how you think such a tax on abortion would pass strict scrutiny?

That's your argument, you explain it.

The purchase and sale of guns and ammo is already taxed through sales taxes and every gun made in the US is subject to a 10% federal tax.

As regards guns - the sales tax is a general tax and generally applied to all items/products. The tax IL is considering is aimed at guns only. That's a huge difference and the SCOTUS has already struck down one such example. I'll see if I can find the case and post back.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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It's not restricted. Tax paying organizations can politick all they want. Tax exempt status is conditional on not doing that.

Can't have it both ways, rightfully so.

Jhhnn, this is completely wrong and I suspect you know better.

"Tax paying organizations" can not "politick" all they want. EVERYONE, individuals, corporations etc, is subject to campaign contribution limits. The only exception is the candidate him/herself who may contribute as much as they want to their own campaign. I think the latter needs to be revisited, particularly as regards the rules on how unspent campaigns funds may be disbursed.

Tax exempt status IS available to political campaigns and PAC's (for the umpteenth time.)

So many statements here are just so 'loose' and technically incorrect it's mind boggling.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,947
55,304
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That's your argument, you explain it.

No, that was your argument.

Did you mistake my statement that taxes can be constitutionally applied to rights if they meet a constitutional standard to mean that all taxes applied to rights must be constitutional? It's really hard to see how you could come to that conclusion if you're making an honest attempt to engage with my argument.

As regards guns - the sales tax is a general tax and generally applied to all items/products. The tax IL is considering is aimed at guns only. That's a huge difference and the SCOTUS has already struck down one such example. I'll see if I can find the case and post back.

Fern

I noticed you ignored the federal tax on gun production that's been in place since before both of us were born. Additionally, are you claiming that our rights can be taxed so long as other things that aren't our rights are also taxed? Seems like this prohibition against taxing rights is crumbling awfully quickly.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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-snip-
That is what you are saying, right? That because the church is exempt from taxation they have give up their rights.

I'd actually like to see this hit the courts.

I believe we're conflating two different things.

On the one hand, political organizations, which again ARE TAX EXEMPT, spend money running ads etc.

If a church pastor (or whatever they're called) wants to recommend a candidate I think that's sufficiently different and may fall under free speech. Many will agree that a pastor can recommend his choice of candidate while outside of church, but I see very little practical difference between, say, mentioning it in church versus putting it on his personal Facebook page for all to see.

Now, to the extent a church donates or spends money for a candidate I think that should be treated just as we treat unions: The portion of the church's money spent on campaigning (or donated to a candidate or PAC) should be disclosed and treated as nondeductible by the donor (church members in this case).

---------
To the broader topic of the thread: I don't really understand why some churches feel the need to get into politics. As a kid growing up in my parents house I had to go to church every Sunday and Wednesday night. I've also attended one here-n-there as an adult. I've never once heard politics in a church. My experience has been that people don't go to church for political info, in fact they would probably switch churches because they don't want politics in their church. I think mentioning politics/candidates in church would also drive away those who support different candidates.

I also suspect the IRS may be avoiding the issue because Black churches have long been allowed to flaunt the rules. Does anybody remember the tapes of Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor in IL?

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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No, that was your argument.

Did you mistake my statement that taxes can be constitutionally applied to rights if they meet a constitutional standard to mean that all taxes applied to rights must be constitutional? It's really hard to see how you could come to that conclusion if you're making an honest attempt to engage with my argument.



I noticed you ignored the federal tax on gun production that's been in place since before both of us were born. Additionally, are you claiming that our rights can be taxed so long as other things that aren't our rights are also taxed? Seems like this prohibition against taxing rights is crumbling awfully quickly.

You're trying awfully damn hard to dance around the question of using tax to abridge a constitutional right, and again this is a general issue and not aimed at the church topic.

Here's Minneapolis Star and Tribune Co. v. Minnesota Com’r of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575 (1983) where the SCOTUS struck down a tax finding in violated rights guaranteed in the Constitution, quoting from Wiki:

this ruling finds that state tax systems cannot treat the press differently from any other business without significant and substantial justification. The state of Minnesota demonstrated no such justification to impose a special tax on a select few newspaper publishers. Therefore, this tax was in violation of the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of the press.

This is why I suspect IL's proposed gun/ammo tax will run into trouble.

Fern
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,947
55,304
136
You're trying awfully damn hard to dance around the question of using tax to abridge a constitutional right, and again this is a general issue and not aimed at the church topic.

Here's Minneapolis Star and Tribune Co. v. Minnesota Com’r of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575 (1983) where the SCOTUS struck down a tax finding in violated rights guaranteed in the Constitution, quoting from Wiki:

This is why I suspect IL's proposed gun/ammo tax will run into trouble.

Fern

You should read your own quotes section again. It explicitly endorses my position that rights can be taxed.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
You should read your own quotes section again. It explicitly endorses my position that rights can be taxed.

I repeat:

You're trying awfully damn hard to dance around the question of using tax to abridge a constitutional right, and again this is a general issue and not aimed at the church topic.
-snip-
Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,947
55,304
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I repeat:

Abridge means to limit or curtail. Again, your quote explicitly endorsed my position. I don't know why you are repeating yourself, you already proved me right. Rights can be taxed, the taxes just need to pass sufficient constitutional scrutiny. End of story.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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So if I give up my right to vote I do not have to pay taxes?

You don't actually have any constitutionally guaranteed right to vote...although the Democrats want you to have such a right...

http://theweek.com/article/index/27...with-a-right-to-vote-constitutional-amendment

The big problem with a right-to-vote constitutional amendment Guaranteeing the right to vote would be great. But there's no reason to think conservative courts will play along.


In what will probably come as a surprise to many Americans, the U.S. Constitution doesn't explicitly guarantee a right to vote. That lamentable absence has sparked a movement of sorts, with commentators calling for the adoption of such an amendment to combat a wave of vote-suppression tactics that have been implemented by conservative state legislatures across the country. But while a right-to-vote amendment would certainly be welcome, it probably won't do all that much to protect the vote.

Vox's Matt Yglesias, for one, makes a compelling case for a right-to-vote amendment, taking into account not only the anti-democratic laws being passed at the state level, but also the Supreme Court's refusal to do anything about them. This is despite the fact that the Constitution does contain various provisions preventing the franchise from being restricted, such as the Fifteenth Amendment, which mandates that the "right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

Even in its worst periods, the Supreme Court did not uphold state laws that explicitly excluded African-Americans from the franchise (whether directly or through "grandfather clauses" that barred African-Americans from voting). But the court did uphold state restrictions, such as literacy tests and poll taxes, that were written in race-neutral language — even though they had the same effect and intent as outright disenfranchisement.

To deal with these kinds of evasions, Yglesias endorses the constitutional amendment proposed by Reps. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.) and Mark Pocan (D-Wisc.), which would codify the principle that "every citizen of the United States, who is of legal voting age, shall have the fundamental right to vote in any public election held in the jurisdiction in which the citizen resides."

However, while this is a laudable amendment, it's worth considering some of the limitations of this strategy.

As Yglesias acknowledges, the first issue is that Article V makes amending the Constitution enormously difficult. The Constitution has been amended only 17 times since 1789, and many of these have been minor. Granted, outside the unusual Civil War amendments, access to the ballot is the one substantive right that has been added post–Bill of Rights through formal amendment. In addition to the Fifteenth Amendment, the Nineteenth (extending the franchise to women), the Twenty-Third (giving electoral votes to the District of Columbia), the Twenty-Fourth (banning poll taxes), and the Twenty-Sixth (giving the right to vote to 18-year-olds) Amendments all enfranchised voters through the amendment process.

Still, in the current political climate it's impossible to see the Ellison/Pocan amendment winning supermajorities in Congress or the support of three-fourths of the states. Most Republican legislators would understand perfectly well that the proposed amendment is squarely pointed at the vote-suppression tactics that have become increasingly crucial to the dwindling GOP coalition.

And even if an amendment did pass, it's not at all clear that the problem would be solved.

The limitations of using the Constitution to protect the right to vote can be summed up in two words: Shelby County. Section 2 of the Fifteenth Amendment explicitly empowers Congress "to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." Nonetheless, in 2013 the Supreme Court gutted the 1965 Voting Rights Act, even though Chief Justice John Roberts' opinion was not backed by any constitutional provision suggesting a restriction on Congress' Fifteenth Amendment powers, nor any precedent not authored by Roberts himself. As Judge Richard Posner observed in Slate, "The opinion rests on air."

The framers of the Reconstruction amendments would not have been surprised by Shelby County. As the University of Maryland's Mark Graber demonstrated in an extraordinary new paper, with the exception of Rep. John Bingham, the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment paid relatively little attention to the precise wording of the substantive rights in Section 1. Their skepticism about what James Madison called "parchment rights" was strongly influenced by the Supreme Court's infamous 1857 Dred Scott decision, which ruled that Congress had no power to ban slavery in federal territories — despite explicit textual language giving Congress the power to "make all needful Rules and Regulations" concerning the territories. (As it happens, both Dred Scott and Shelby County relied on the dubious theory that the explicit powers of Congress should be limited by a "equal sovereignty of the states" principle, a principle wholly created by the judiciary.)

For this reason, they were more concerned about preserving the ability of Republicans to control the federal judiciary than with exactly what words the Constitution should use to protect the rights of freed slaves.

In other words, they thought that bad judges were a much bigger problem than textual lacunae, and there's a great deal of truth in this. It's very likely that the Roberts Court would uphold most contemporary vote-suppression laws even if a right-to-vote amendment was passed.

Moreover, in all likelihood these vote-suppression techniques already violate the existing text of the Constitution. A federal district judge, for example, found that Texas' draconian voter ID law was racially discriminatory in both effect and purpose, and also functions as a poll tax. If these findings are accurate, the Texas law already violates the Fourteenth, Fifteenth, and Twenty-Fourth Amendments.

None of this is to deny that changes in textual language could matter at the margin. I can imagine certain judges, particularly moderate Democratic nominees, who would uphold voter ID requirements under the current constitution, but not under an amended one. However, the track record of textual protections for the right to vote is generally poor.

The courts, in other words, are unlikely to protect the right to vote unless the principle has substantial political support. And that, in the end, may be the best reason to mobilize a constitutional right to vote, despite its limitations. A new amendment may not do much in theory — but if a movement can increase popular support for the right to vote, it's worth it in itself.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
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Jhhnn, this is completely wrong and I suspect you know better.

"Tax paying organizations" can not "politick" all they want. EVERYONE, individuals, corporations etc, is subject to campaign contribution limits. The only exception is the candidate him/herself who may contribute as much as they want to their own campaign. I think the latter needs to be revisited, particularly as regards the rules on how unspent campaigns funds may be disbursed.

Tax exempt status IS available to political campaigns and PAC's (for the umpteenth time.)

So many statements here are just so 'loose' and technically incorrect it's mind boggling.

Fern

Hogwash. You reference money as speech, when that's not the case with politics from the pulpit, at all.

And there are, as you say, limits to campaign contributions to any one candidate, but none on overall contributions-

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303847804579477280434759494

Hence, tax paying individuals & organizations can politick all they want, lend financial support to thousands of candidates if they so choose. That's with after tax money, & contributions are not deductible. Election funds & 527 organizations are tax exempt, because taxes have been paid on contributions before they were made. Such contributions are not anonymous, either, unless they've been run through the right wing money laundering machine.

Contributions to religious 501(c)3 organizations are tax deductible & completely anonymous, unlike regular campaign contributions. Their tax exempt status is dependent upon them staying out of politics, by definition.

Which is not to say that the IRS will be going after an idiot preacher in Bumfuck Texas who claims Louie Gohmert has God on his side. What it means is that larger organizations cannot engage in or endorse such conduct. What it means is that TH's contention that 1600 pissant congregations is some sort of trend is hogwash, as is the notion that 501(c)3 tax exempt organizations enjoy free political speech in the first place. They do not- it's the price of being tax exempt & of having contributions be tax exempt as well.

Take it to the SCOTUS? How would standing be achieved if the IRS ignores the idiots? And what's the argument- that you have the right to tax free contributions and free political speech because you have God on your side?