Are churches looking for a showdown with the IRS?

[MomentsofSanity]

Oh good another THIAFR thread.

 

[PokerGuy]

Nobody is attempting to levy taxes against a particular religion or parish. The church must abide by the same laws as everyone else. The law allows for churches to be tax exempt, provided they abide by certain restrictions. Perfectly reasonable. Nobody is taxing religion, nobody is using taxation as a weapon (in this case). I'd argue that churches engaging in overt political behavior should have their tax exempt status revoked. Want to be a political organization? No problem, but then you don't get the benefit of being tax exempt.

 

[PokerGuy]

Um, unions are non-profit and they certainly interfere with politics.

Yep, in fact many of them are more involved with politics now than they are with protecting the rights of their members.

 

[fskimospy]

Where do you think our concept of no taxation without representation comes from? The Magna Carta.

What was one of the issues that caused people to revolt? Taxation of churchs and seizing church land by King John.

All through history taxes have been used as a form of punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscus_Judaicus


Ensuring religion is exempt from taxes also ensures religions are not punished by a given group.

Catholics can not punish baptist by raising taxes.
Christians can not punish jews by raising taxes.
Jews can not punish christians by raising taxes.

Gotcha, so you have nothing.

/thread

 

[alzan]

Can we start charging a tax on every stupid post in P&N? It might cut down on many of these Texashiker threads that have an idiotic premise.

There are TH threads that don't have an idiotic premise?

 

[CPA]

Yep, in fact many of them are more involved with politics now than they are with protecting the rights of their members.

Yeah, but the more I thought about this debate angle and included the religious seperation clause (though, I think this country interprets it incorrectly) and the rights of PACs, I couldn't support moving labor unions to 501(c)(3) status nor support moving churches to 501(c)(5) status (again because of the seperation of church and state).

 

[brycejones]

For the love of god, someone help TH find a gig doing tug jobs so he can feel the salty spray on his face and stop posting here.

 

[Texashiker]

The law allows for churches to be tax exempt, provided they abide by certain restrictions.

Once again, where does the government have the ability to restrict either religion or political speech?

Gotcha, so you have nothing.

/thread

Tax exemptions have been upheld numerous times.

http://ffrf.org/faq/feeds/item/12601-tax-exemption-of-churches

Now tell me where a government agency has the ability to restrict rights.

 

[PokerGuy]

Once again, where does the government have the ability to restrict either religion or political speech?

What speech is being restricted? Are you saying that treating an organization the same as everyone else (ie, taxing it) is restricting their free speech?

 

[Texashiker]

What speech is being restricted?

Are you saying that treating an organization the same as everyone else (ie, taxing it) is restricting their free speech?

The irs is putting certain conditions on the freedom of political speech. In essence the ir is saying if you do this, you lose that.

Rights are not a bargaining chip.

 

[WelshBloke]

The irs is putting certain conditions on the freedom of political speech. In essence the ir is saying if you do this, you lose that.

Rights are not a bargaining chip.

So you're arguing that churches shouldn't have tax exempt status in the first place?

 

[Texashiker]

So you're arguing that churches shouldn't have tax exempt status in the first place?

No, not at all.

As I listed earlier, churches should be tax exempt to prevent taxes being used as tools against the church.

Do not want jews in your town? Just raise taxes and seize the church property when they are unable to pay.

Do not want catholics in your town? Raise taxes until they are unable to pay, then seize the property.

The irs is using taxes as a tool to suppress political speech. What over government agency can suppress rights on a whelm?

 

[PokerGuy]

The irs is putting certain conditions on the freedom of political speech. In essence the ir is saying if you do this, you lose that.

Rights are not a bargaining chip.

You do not have a right to not be taxed.

 

[fskimospy]

No, not at all.

As I listed earlier, churches should be tax exempt to prevent taxes being used as tools against the church.

Do not want jews in your town? Just raise taxes and seize the church property when they are unable to pay.

Do not want catholics in your town? Raise taxes until they are unable to pay, then seize the property.

The irs is using taxes as a tool to suppress political speech. What over government agency can suppress rights on a whelm?

Right. So you want everyone else to subsidize your religious activity without being able to attach any conditions to it.

Any more special privileged you want while you're at it?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Yet another Texashick thread where he's arguing about something and using false equivalencies in attempt to make a point.

Churches should stay out of politics, if they chose to enter the ring their tax exempt status should be revoked.........period!

 

[fskimospy]

Yet another Texashick thread where he's arguing about something and using false equivalencies in attempt to make a point.

Churches should stay out of politics, if they chose to enter the ring their tax exempt status should be revoked.........period!

Exactly. Government shouldn't mess with churches and in exchange churches shouldn't mess with government.

Pretty simple. If one side doesn't live up to their end of the bargain neither does the other.

 

[Texashiker]

Exactly. Government shouldn't mess with churches and in exchange churches shouldn't mess with government.

Pretty simple. If one side doesn't live up to their end of the bargain neither does the other.

Do government agencies have the ability to curb rights?

 

[xBiffx]

Do government agencies have the ability to curb rights?

I would think, at least regarding 2nd Amendment rights, the answer to that question is clear.

 

[fskimospy]

Do government agencies have the ability to curb rights?

Of course they do.

Didn't you have to take a civics class in high school? You would probably learn that in the first week.

Now get back to answering what other activities of yours you want us to give you free money towards. What other special privileges you want to have.

 

[WelshBloke]

No, not at all.

As I listed earlier, churches should be tax exempt to prevent taxes being used as tools against the church.

Do not want jews in your town? Just raise taxes and seize the church property when they are unable to pay.

Do not want catholics in your town? Raise taxes until they are unable to pay, then seize the property.

By that example everyone should be tax exempt.

 

[BoomerD]

Want to bitch about it? Talk to Congress...they make the laws, the IRS just enforces them.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

All IRC section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and special tax laws religious organizations, must abide by certain rules:
their net earnings may not inure to any private shareholder or individual,
they must not provide a substantial benefit to private interests,
they must not devote a substantial part of their activities to attempting to influence legislation,
they must not participate in, or intervene in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for
public office, and
the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.

Lots more there.

 

[alzan]

For the love of god, someone help TH find a gig doing tug jobs so he can feel the salty spray on his face and stop posting here.

Maybe a government agency is restricting TH's right to be employed doing tug jobs and feeling the salty spray in his face because of all the uncomfortable and potentially embarassing questions he asks, on this forum and others.

It'd be just like our government to do that sort of thing.

 

[Texashiker]

Now get back to answering what other activities of yours you want us to give you free money towards. What other special privileges you want to have.

Please answer my question.

What grants a government agency the ability to curb rights?

You always seem to justify upholding rights, so why the flip-flop? Why all of a sudden are you for restricting political speech?

I would think, at least regarding 2nd Amendment rights, the answer to that question is clear.

Those restrictions are supposed to help protect the public.

Want to bitch about it? Talk to Congress...they make the laws, the IRS just enforces them.

I figure churchs are going to bring the irs to the supreme court.

Such restrictions are a clear violation of political speech.

 

[WelshBloke]

What grants a government agency the ability to curb rights?

What rights are being impinged on?

 

[xBiffx]

Those restrictions are supposed to help protect the public.

And? Your question was whether or not government can curb rights. I gave you an instance where they obviously can. Your question didn't ask what reason government has to curb rights but rather do they have the ability to begin with. The answer is an obvious yes.