Arab League

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
You have the wrong interpretion of culture.

Learn arabic, read some of its literature. Comment aferwards. Not by using a brainwashed view just becuase someone said it!

So who gets to decide whats humane and whats not? Murderes may have a different view. Why are they targeted when they are only different?

Arabic literature has no cultural or any impact to the world as a whole when compared to works of literature from elsewhere.

If you are resorting to the 'Murder may not be barbaric' view, then I think you lost.

Im just saying murder would not become sane if the majority agreed on it. That extends to all laws.

So would 13 year old pregnant girls...

So what's your point?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
You have the wrong interpretion of culture.

Learn arabic, read some of its literature. Comment aferwards. Not by using a brainwashed view just becuase someone said it!

So who gets to decide whats humane and whats not? Murderes may have a different view. Why are they targeted when they are only different?

Arabic literature has no cultural or any impact to the world as a whole when compared to works of literature from elsewhere.

If you are resorting to the 'Murder may not be barbaric' view, then I think you lost.

Im just saying murder would not become sane if the majority agreed on it. That extends to all laws.

That's nice. People usually say this to espouse their barbaric beliefs, similar to the monster in my sig.

What about my sig? Do you support such behavior? How does apostasy come into play in your ideal Islamic culture? How about other religious minorities?

You're calling for a defunct culture as a superior culture...a culture where people likely wallowed around in filth, doing barbaric things, and being barbaric as most people all around the world were during those times.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
If he is a criminal, he should be investigated and try. AFAIK thats what the governemnt says its doing.

Investigated??? :roll: The facts have been documented for years. A.Q. Khan, the "father of Pakistani nuclear weapons program," stole nuclear technology from his employer in the Netherlands, and he admitted he sold nuclear materials and plans and hardware to build nuclear facilities to North Korea, Iran and Libya. From my original link:

Pakistan's nuclear weapons program is a source of extreme national pride, and, as its father, A.Q. Khan -- who headed Pakistan's nuclear program for some 25 years -- is considered a national hero. Though his full name is Abdul Qadeer Khan, he is commonly referred to as A.Q. Khan. Born in Bhopal, Dr. A.Q. Khan is a German-educated metallurgist who, from May 1972 to December1975 was employed by Physics Dynamic Research Laboratory (also known as FDO), an engineering firm based in Amsterdam and a subcontractor to the URENCO consortium specializing in the manufacture of nuclear equipment. A Dutch-German and British consortium, Urenco primary enrichment facility was at Almelo, Netherlands. A.Q. Khan, in his capacity would eventualy have an office at that facility by late 1974.

In 1975, following India's 1974 nuclear test and while on holiday in Pakistan, Dr. [Khan] was reported to have been asked by the then-prime minister to take charge of Pakistan?s uranium-enrichment program. In early 1976, Dr. Khan left the Netherlands with secret URENCO blueprints for uranium centrifuge (one of Dutch origins featuring an aluminum rotor, and another of German make, composed of maraging steel, a superhard alloy). Convicted in 1983 in abstentia by a court in the Netherlands for stealing the designs, his conviction would be later overturned on a technicality.

Because Pakistan lacked the technical base to for a nuclear program, Khan reportedly began to clandestinely acquire the necessary materials and components required for the production of fissile material using information pertaining to URENCO's key suppliers, which he had also taken with him from the Netherlands. Theses were used to provide Pakistan with needed equipment. Indeed, according to a Dutch government report, two Dutch firms were involved in the 1976 export of 6,200 unfinished maraging steel rotor tubes to Pakistan. A dual track approach was reportedly used for Pakistan?s nuclear weapons program, however, with Khan?s program being the reportedly inferior one, as far as size, power and efficiency characteristics were concerned. Pakistan?s Atomic Energy Commission ran the other track. There have however been a number of allegations regarding Pakistan?s nuclear weapon that its origins may lie with China, as Pakistan?s bombs closely mirror Chinese designs from the late 1960?s, and which relied on advanced, implosion-based detonation.
.
.
In his startling televised confession Wednesday, Abdul Qadeer Khan insisted he acted without authorization in selling nuclear technology to other governments. A.Q. Khan admitted selling nuclear technology to Iran, Libya, and North Korea. A.Q. Khan asked for clemency, but the Pakistani government made no public announcement about whether he is to be prosecuted. The confessed proliferation took place between 1989 and 2000, though it is suspected that proliferation activities to North Korea continued after that date. The network used to supply these activities is global in scope, stretching from Germany to Dubai and from China to South Asia, and involves numerous middlemen and suppliers.

What's left to investigate? The fact that the Pakistani government has done nothing about him, publically, and everything they could to help him and has rewarded him handsomly behind the scenes is a strong indictment against Pakistan when it comes to believing anything they say about their "peaceful" intentions with nukes. The fact that Bin Laden is still roaming free on Pakistani soil doen't do much for their credibility with the rest of the world, either.

And I don't give a damn about any lame excuses from the Pakistani government about not being able to do anything about Bin Laden when so much of the population supports him. Regardless of how peaceful and civil you may be, personally, that goes a long way toward shifting the burden to you to convince others you're not one of the bad guys.

 

[Moonbeam]

M: There is no point in discussing the strengths and weaknesses of different cultures with people who hate themselves and have identified with this or that culture as a substitute for self respect because they are unconsciously biased to see their own culture as best even where it is obvious to anybody not so identified that it is not.

TGB: That long run on sentence is not clear to me. 99% of the people you talk to you are of western culture or have been educated by such. Why not watch or visit an Arab channel for a change? It is you that is living in an uninformed world where the only culture taught to you is western. Why not try and learn true values of this culture?

M: There is no point in discussing the strengths and weaknesses of different cultures with people who hate themselves and have identified with this or that culture as a substitute for self respect. This is because they are unconsciously biased to see their own culture as best even where it is obvious to anybody not so identified that it is not.

Actually, this is true of everybody including you but I was addressing it to Astaroth who couldn't imagine how your culture could be superior to his. But it's good that you reveal yourself as equally guilty.
---------------------------

M: You run into the unconscious bigotry hidden in all of us when you threaten people's false pretense. Our violence and rage at the other is a mirror of the violence and rage we were threatened with if we failed to conform to our own family norms. The family is a subset of the tribe which is a subset of larger and larger groupings to which we have been forced to pay allegiance. Whoever we are we are the best because we were made to feel worthless if we didn't join.

TGB: Im just comparing cultures. It is americans who are bigots when they think they and they above all are superior to all of humanity. They think their way of ruling people, their way of education, there society and so called freedom (Where the government can tap into its citizens' phones). They think their knowledge and thinking encompasses our minds and is above it.

M: Yes that is what I said, but it applies to you too and not just Americans.
---------------

TGB: In the above posts, people are clearly hinting towards the fact that they think western culture is better. I would not be surprised to know that they are Westerners.

M: It is equally true everywhere and it was my Western friends that I was advising of this. As I have done some modest study of Eastern culture I have some respect for it's values. I have done some modest investigation of myself also and no longer have much need in pretending my culture is the best. But I do respect some of its values too. I am interested in what is real, not what is culturally biased opinion.

 

[dexvx]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
There would be no terrorists if there was a united arab federation. They would probably be one of the most powerful economic state. The basic cause of terrorism is poverty and lack of education. American policies are the fuel.

Wrong, while American policy in the ME sucks in general over the last 50 years, Arab policies have sucked even more. They have billions of dollars in oil revenue, and they don't invest it in education for the masses. Much of the corruptness is the inability of the ruling dictators (or monarchs) to spread the wealth. Instead of investing in the future, they blow their money now. Take a look at the Arab nations in Africa - Sudan, Somalia, and their neighbors. That is what the Middle East would be like without oil. Oil will not last forever, and as the world moves towards alternative fuel sources, the ME is gonna get pwned if they do not re-priotize their money.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
However the US would never let this happen. The arabs would be controlling the world econmoy with the oil they have. I would seriously like to see a lose federation of Arab nations emerging soon. They have commom interests, and a common religion. Israel would be crushed once all muslim nations (including Iran and Pakistan) join in. The only way America can ensure a soverign Israeli state is by using the divide and rule theory. That was the whole purpose of breaking the Ottomon empire after WW2.[/b]

Ottoman Empire broke up because Arabs wanted independance from the Turks. Read any highschool history text.

And No, if the Arabs try to even attempt to cartel the oil this is what will happen: USA, EU, Russia, India, China, Japan, and Korea will form an Alliance and beat the crap out of the Middle East. No first rate country is stupid enough to let an Arab Alliance build up that can potentially bully the rest of the world and gain dominance.

 

[Specop 007]

envy me will be crushed that his beloved terrorist organization Hezbollah is losing support.

 

[2Xtreme21]

I think if you take any government and put at its head any kind of religious ideology, that country is doomed to failure. You would see the same "barbaric" behavior you talk about if the country was headed by a Christian bent on securing / furthering Christianity in the world. Though, ironically, you don't think the US could ever be backward due to its "cultural advancement," yet look at the direction this country has gone in the past 5-6 years. Bush needed a SC order to stop brutalizing POW's for Christ's sake! Yet I digress...

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam.

M: It is equally true everywhere and it was my Western friends that I was advising of this. As I have done some modest study of Eastern culture I have some respect for it's values. I have done some modest investigation of myself also and no longer have much need in pretending my culture is the best. But I do respect some of its values too. I am interested in what is real, not what is culturally biased opinion.

I disagree, I think you can name a variety of metrics for which you believe are desirable characteristics for a culture to possess. (women's freedoms, opportunity, safety, etc)

Based upon these metrics, I think one can accurately conclude that western culture is summarily superior to say, arabic culture.

If you're going to take the (IMO obnoxious and typically liberal view) that neither culture is better, both are "equal but different" (same old baloney) why not live over there for awhile?

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Though, ironically, you don't think the US could ever be backward due to its "cultural advancement," yet look at the direction this country has gone in the past 5-6 years. Bush needed a SC order to stop brutalizing POW's for Christ's sake! Yet I digress...

Mischaracterization of what was occuring. Why would you wish to lie and exaggerate? Do you not wish to be accurate?

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I don't really see how you can say one culture is better than the other. But if you want to talk about the ills in many Islamic cultures:

Rampant incest
Honor killings
Throwing acid at people
Rioting over ridiculous things like pics of Mohammed
Oppression of women
Rampant sectarian violence
Oppression of religious minorities
etc.

None of the above have anything to do with "Islamic" culture. Those are sometimes mistakenly attributed by not very educated people to Islam. Infact most of the

Originally posted by: alchemize
barbaric

ills are part of other cultures. Pakistan (India) has a history of many thousands of years. Honor killings is reminicant of the caste system (hindu system) and has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

There is only one Islamic culture. The others are hybrids.

You're speaking about an ideal type of society that will never happen. The reality is that all of these problems and more are rampant in the current Islamic society and culture today. The 'Western' society doesn't call for 13 year old pregnancies (which I would also assume is more common in the Islamic culture - Hell, look at its own founder) either, but it happens at time.

You can speak about ideal culture, but then Western culture would still win as in an ideal sense, it is much more free and tolerant than any religious culture.

What he's saying sounds like the same old shi*t the communists used to say, "Oh hey, even though everything it's produced so far has been utter sh*t, it's really GOOD, it just hasn't been tried right yet. (hey, new cancerous idealogy, same old justification.)

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Islamic culture is superior to Western culture.

Really? In what way?

In most. Lets start with society. We don't have 13 year old girls getting pregnant. http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=38&threadid=1889435
We don't send our parents off to Nursing homes. We care for them. We care for people. For us, its not just about "hitting it"

Arabic literature is superior. Take the Quran as an example. If you know arabic no english literature comes close its its eloquence. Arabic language is superior to english.

Etiqutte and manners. I need'nt say much.

Love of Peace and Prosperity. This argument will get nowhere though. The terrorists misrepresent Islamic values and principals. However, Americans and Israelis openly condone bombing of innocent civilians.

Equality and brotherhood. There is a greater sense of brotherhood in Islam than any other culture. The true values of Islam teach Equality, charity, unity and brotherhood.

Arabic does sound pretty nice when listening to this Syrian woman speak it 😉

 

[Jamie571]

Arabic does sound pretty nice when listening to this Syrian woman speak it 😉[/quote]

Very intelligent women.

"You can believe in stones as long as you don't throw them at me."

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: alchemize
600+ honor killings in Pakistan in 2003. Enough said, nice country you got going there.

Source.

That fact has nothing to do with THIS debate.

ORLY? At least you admit it to be fact. Fact is, islamic society is the most barbaric in the world when it comes to mistreatment of women. And Pakistan is waaaay up on that list. And that has EVERYTHING to do with this debate, since women are 1/2 of any given culture.

I think it's barbaric how Western society expects its women to be scantily clad at all times in order to be considered "free". The degradation of Western women in porn and and rampant prostitution is further proof of Western barbarism against women. Not to mention abuse against women in the US is quite high.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: alchemize
600+ honor killings in Pakistan in 2003. Enough said, nice country you got going there.

Source.

That fact has nothing to do with THIS debate.

ORLY? At least you admit it to be fact. Fact is, islamic society is the most barbaric in the world when it comes to mistreatment of women. And Pakistan is waaaay up on that list. And that has EVERYTHING to do with this debate, since women are 1/2 of any given culture.

I think it's barbaric how Western society expects its women to be scantily clad at all times in order to be considered "free". The degradation of Western women in porn and and rampant prostitution is further proof of Western barbarism against women. Not to mention abuse against women in the US is quite high.

I don't think Western society expects women to be all scantily clad all of the time. However, if women wish to be scantily clad, be in porn, or whatever, then they should have the right to do it. Or we can just stone them. Stoning of women is probably a lot higher in Islamic societies. Or we can make them second class citizens. That would be pretty good, too. Maybe we should institute in some honor killings. I mean, sky daddy living in the clouds forbid, what if they show some leg? My god. I better punish them for actually doing something crazy like that.

 

[Confusednewbie1552]

Sorry if this has been said allready (im not gonna read 4 pages of this) but:
1: They are either Pro Us
or
2: Sunni

Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran are Shite.

 

[Gamer X]

Most of the Arab leaders are treasonous dictators. The Sunni vs Shiite matter is not the cause of this. All Arab people support Hezbullah.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: dexvx
Ottoman Empire broke up because Arabs wanted independance from the Turks. Read any highschool history text.

Obviously out high school texts differed.

And No, if the Arabs try to even attempt to cartel the oil this is what will happen: USA, EU, Russia, India, China, Japan, and Korea will form an Alliance and beat the crap out of the Middle East. No first rate country is stupid enough to let an Arab Alliance build up that can potentially bully the rest of the world and gain dominance.

Is that freedom or tolerance? How hypcritical is that?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Frackal
(women's freedoms, opportunity, safety, etc)

Is freedom letting the government tap into telephone communications? Is it Guantanamo bay?

Is equal oppurtunity the discrimination of the visa process for third world countries? Is safety bombing for and killing?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Harvey
Investigated??? :roll: The facts have been documented for years. A.Q. Khan, the "father of Pakistani nuclear weapons program," stole nuclear technology from his employer in the Netherlands, and he admitted he sold nuclear materials and plans and hardware to build nuclear facilities to North Korea, Iran and Libya.

Those are countries not terrorists. Nuclear technology is not necassary bombs.

What's left to investigate? The fact that the Pakistani government has done nothing about him, publically, and everything they could to help him and has rewarded him handsomly behind the scenes is a strong indictment against Pakistan when it comes to believing anything they say about their "peaceful" intentions with nukes. The fact that Bin Laden is still roaming free on Pakistani soil doen't do much for their credibility with the rest of the world, either.

Since when is it a fact? Got any proof?

And I don't give a damn about any lame excuses from the Pakistani government about not being able to do anything about Bin Laden when so much of the population supports him. Regardless of how peaceful and civil you may be, personally, that goes a long way toward shifting the burden to you to convince others you're not one of the bad guys.

And I don't give a damn about lame excuses from the US or Israeli governemnt for killing civilians when so much of the population supports it (the government). Regardless of how peaceful and civil you may be, personally, that goes a long way toward shifting the burden to you to convince others you're not one of the bad guys.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
Most of the Arab leaders are treasonous dictators. The Sunni vs Shiite matter is not the cause of this. All Arab people support Hezbullah.

you are so wrong

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
Most of the Arab leaders are treasonous dictators. The Sunni vs Shiite matter is not the cause of this. All Arab people support Hezbullah.

Link to a credible site with this exact quote?

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Harvey
Investigated??? :roll: The facts have been documented for years. A.Q. Khan, the "father of Pakistani nuclear weapons program," stole nuclear technology from his employer in the Netherlands, and he admitted he sold nuclear materials and plans and hardware to build nuclear facilities to North Korea, Iran and Libya.

Those are countries not terrorists. Nuclear technology is not necassary bombs.

You live in some fantasy. When did you last visit planet Earth?

What's left to investigate? The fact that the Pakistani government has done nothing about him, publically, and everything they could to help him and has rewarded him handsomly behind the scenes is a strong indictment against Pakistan when it comes to believing anything they say about their "peaceful" intentions with nukes. The fact that Bin Laden is still roaming free on Pakistani soil doen't do much for their credibility with the rest of the world, either.

Since when is it a fact? Got any proof?

Did you bother to click the link I posted twice before? Didn't your mother warn you, if you didn't stop it, you'd go blind? :shocked:

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: alchemize
600+ honor killings in Pakistan in 2003. Enough said, nice country you got going there.

Source.

That fact has nothing to do with THIS debate.

ORLY? At least you admit it to be fact. Fact is, islamic society is the most barbaric in the world when it comes to mistreatment of women. And Pakistan is waaaay up on that list. And that has EVERYTHING to do with this debate, since women are 1/2 of any given culture.

I think it's barbaric how Western society expects its women to be scantily clad at all times in order to be considered "free". The degradation of Western women in porn and and rampant prostitution is further proof of Western barbarism against women. Not to mention abuse against women in the US is quite high.

They are also free to use their driver's license to get into the car that they own to drive down to an attorney (or perhaps a police station) and enlist his services to file a legal grievance (or a criminal complaint) which would then be heard by a jury of her peers. Or perhaps they could go shopping without an escort to go buy some clothes that meet your approval. :roll:

 

[Aimster]

I love the U.S. ... well not so much with Bush .. but it is still 1,000,000x better than what Islamic countries have to offer.

Turkey isn't so bad, but they aren't run by Islamic fanatical wackos.

Islam has destroyed the Muslim countries.
Lebanon would be up there with Turkey but they have those wackos Hezbollah destroying their beautiful country. I hope Hezbollah falls and Lebanon can go back to being a rare example of how govts should be in the Islamic world.

If Islam didn't control the countries with the majority of the people muslim, their economies would probably be double yet they are too busy making this and that illegal because it goes against Islam... give me a break.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
I think it's barbaric how Western society expects its women to be scantily clad at all times in order to be considered "free". The degradation of Western women in porn and and rampant prostitution is further proof of Western barbarism against women. Not to mention abuse against women in the US is quite high.

Get over it. "Western society" doesn't "expect" its women to be scantily clad at all times, but women do have the freedom to select their own mode of dress, and we don't stone them to death if their choice of clothing offends some anal male religious nutcase of any belief who thinks he knows more about the will of his alleged deity than anyone else.

We have such religious morons, here, but even with Bushwhacko in the Whitehouse, they don't have that much control over our government... at least yet.