Ar15s replacing shotguns in police cruisers?

[rommelrommel]

i don't understand why the AR15. if it's true that they're encountering armored targets in increasing numbers, then AR15's aren't going to help.

go right to short barrelled M1A's. much better idea, IMO.

Any centerfire rifle will defeat IIIA (about all that you could conceal outside of possible level 3/4 plates over vitals) handily, and level 3/4 will stop almost all centerfire rounds anyone is likely to be able to deploy in such a situation (single hit.)

I know everyone on the internet is uneffected by recoil and platform weight but IRL there are multiple reasons why light arms have moved away from the 308/3006 type of rounds.

 

[irishScott]

i don't understand why the AR15. if it's true that they're encountering armored targets in increasing numbers, then AR15's aren't going to help.

go right to short barrelled M1A's. much better idea, IMO.

Try taking a headshot with an AR-15 vs a 12 gauge.

 

[oynaz]

Are they really full auto or just semi-auto versions? I really don't know much about what police forces in the UK and other European countries use.

there seems to be a lot more terrorism/war going on over the pond so i can see why they would have automatic weapons.

on the presidential debate the other night they were talking about banning full auto weapons and preventing the criminals from getting them. as others have said, full auto weapons in the hands of civilians and criminals in the US is very rare. There have been only a few incidents with full auto weapons over the last 80 years or so. the politicians and media have no idea wtf they are talking about (or this is done on purpose to scare the sheep).

I don't know if they're semi- or full automatic - it probably differs. In Denmark, they use what look like MP5s, I believe those can be used both ways.

A lot more terrorism/war going on in Europe? WTF?

 

[sourceninja]

If they are really worried about body armor, what about the FN 5.7×28mm? According to wikipedia "Fired from the P90, the SS190 is capable of penetrating the CRISAT vest at a range of 200 m (219 yd), or a Level IIIA Kevlar vest at the same range."

 

[FallenHero]

If they are really worried about body armor, what about the FN 5.7×28mm? According to wikipedia "Fired from the P90, the SS190 is capable of penetrating the CRISAT vest at a range of 200 m (219 yd), or a Level IIIA Kevlar vest at the same range."

because the AR, it's parts and ammo are more readily available in the states.

 

[Nintendesert]

Any centerfire rifle will defeat IIIA (about all that you could conceal outside of possible level 3/4 plates over vitals) handily, and level 3/4 will stop almost all centerfire rounds anyone is likely to be able to deploy in such a situation (single hit.)

I know everyone on the internet is uneffected by recoil and platform weight but IRL there are multiple reasons why light arms have moved away from the 308/3006 type of rounds.

When did we move away from the .308? Hmm, Vietnam. When the Army was composed of a bunch of ill-trained conscripts that would spray and pray and had no marksmanship training.

So the need to carry more rounds was much more necessary than with a more well trained volunteer army.

Besides, the .223 is a varmint round. It's used for plinking squirrels and raccoons not hunting big game. If we want to keep the same magazines etc. we should be using a 6mm round.

I like the .308 (7.62) but think the .243 would be better for military purposes due to recoil and ballistics differences. We should at least be using a deer killing round for human killing... :hmm:

Police on the other hand should just keep using the hand me down weapons the military sells them at discount. :biggrin:

 

[Paladin3]

A 9MM or .40 handgun is all the firepower that 99% of police officers need to do their job. Criminals are cowards, they have zero interest in getting into a shootout with police that they will eventually lose.

If we wait to give rifles to cops until they do need them 99% of the time then we have failed. We give cops rifles for the rare instances when they do need them. It's called being prepared. Just like the spare tire you have in your trunk, the extra canned food and bottled water in the pantry and the flashlight you keep by the bed. 99% of the time you won't need those either, but it could save your life when you do.

I don't think there is a problem with cops abusing their rifles for us to even worry about. The only people who don't want better armed law enforcement are the criminals and the "fuck the police" crowd.

 

[Imp]

Try taking a headshot with an AR-15 vs a 12 gauge.

Shotguns cheating though. You get like 8 or more little pieces per shot, plus it spreads out. Damn hackers.

 

[xBiffx]

Shotguns cheating though. You get like 8 or more little pieces per shot, plus it spreads out. Damn hackers.

True. I'd be more concerned when the cops start resorting to the noob tube. D:

 

[AMCRambler]

I think full auto for the police is a bad idea. They end up having to fire their weapons around others frequently and their hit percentage with single shot semi-autos isn't that high. Give them a full auto and they'll kill more innocents than perps.

That shooting in NYC recently is a good example. Tons of people on a crowded street. They hit a whole bunch of bystanders taking out the scum bag. With full auto and high velocity rifle rounds those bystanders would be dead instead of just wounded.

 

[ichy]

If we wait to give rifles to cops until they do need them 99% of the time then we have failed. We give cops rifles for the rare instances when they do need them. It's called being prepared. Just like the spare tire you have in your trunk, the extra canned food and bottled water in the pantry and the flashlight you keep by the bed. 99% of the time you won't need those either, but it could save your life when you do.

I don't think there is a problem with cops abusing their rifles for us to even worry about. The only people who don't want better armed law enforcement are the criminals and the "fuck the police" crowd.

The problem is that law enforcement resources will always be limited. Compare how many cops per year are killed in car crashes versus the number killed by lunatics with an insane amount of firepower. Buying newer police cars with side impact airbags would do vastly more to protect LEOs than spending lots of money on assault rifles (and the necessary training to use them. Most cops are pretty shitty shots even with their sidearms.) I'm not worried about abuse, I am worried about money being wasted on cool "tactical" toys with little real life value.

 

[ichy]

If they are really worried about body armor, what about the FN 5.7×28mm? According to wikipedia "Fired from the P90, the SS190 is capable of penetrating the CRISAT vest at a range of 200 m (219 yd), or a Level IIIA Kevlar vest at the same range."

Good grief, how much does an H&K P90 cost? How much would ammo for training cost? How many times do cops need to blast through heavy military-grade kevlar vests in real life?

 

[Zargon]

When did we move away from the .308? Hmm, Vietnam. When the Army was composed of a bunch of ill-trained conscripts that would spray and pray and had no marksmanship training.

So the need to carry more rounds was much more necessary than with a more well trained volunteer army.

Besides, the .223 is a varmint round. It's used for plinking squirrels and raccoons not hunting big game. If we want to keep the same magazines etc. we should be using a 6mm round.

I like the .308 (7.62) but think the .243 would be better for military purposes due to recoil and ballistics differences. We should at least be using a deer killing round for human killing... :hmm:

Police on the other hand should just keep using the hand me down weapons the military sells them at discount. :biggrin:

the police rarely need the 5.56, they will almost never need a .308

most swat teams were using remington 700's in 308 for marksmen though, direct feed down from the military just like the AR platform

because the AR, it's parts and ammo are more readily available in the states.

this. you can waltz into walmart and get .223, good luck finding FN's fancy ass expensive ammo

its why alot of places adotped the FN 5-7 then ditched it.


for most people and uses for police 223 is perfect. its almost always shorter engagements with lots of civilians around, which makes shotguns less useful

and 00 buck will overpenetrate just as bad as 223 will when shooting in a house.

the rifles arent overl expensive, parts and ammo are veyr to come by

it has very little recoil, and is a compact lightweight accurate rifle platform

Good grief, how much does an H&K P90 cost? How much would ammo for training cost? How many times do cops need to blast through heavy military-grade kevlar vests in real life?

the P90 is a FN 😛

but still.....exactly, specialize parts, special ammo, new platform to train on

 

[Paladin3]

I watched the North Hollywood BofA shootout live on TV. I was a news photographer working at a paper about 1/2 hour away when it happened, and I knew photographers who were at the scene and in the line of fire.

The whole time I kept asking myself why none of the cops had a rifle to end the situation. The gunmen were just standing there reloading, begging for a headshot from anyone with a rifle who knew how to use it. The fact that the cops scored so many hits on the badguys with assorted caliber handguns and shotguns without even slowing them down proves beyond a doubt that a rifle was the missing tool that would have done the job. A .223 round will penetrate a vest.

But the LAPD was still reeling in the aftermath of the Rodney King beating, the subsequent riots, officer trials and the Chief Gates debacle. In retrospect, I'm not surprised that the LAPD, with it's kinder and gentler approach to community relations, hadn't found it a priority to properly arm their patrol officers.

 

[ichy]

Sorry but one incident that took place over a decade ago isn't sufficient reason to buy vast amounts of equipment that 99.9% of police officers will never need.

 

[Paladin3]

The problem is that law enforcement resources will always be limited. Compare how many cops per year are killed in car crashes versus the number killed by lunatics with an insane amount of firepower. Buying newer police cars with side impact airbags would do vastly more to protect LEOs than spending lots of money on assault rifles (and the necessary training to use them. Most cops are pretty shitty shots even with their sidearms.) I'm not worried about abuse, I am worried about money being wasted on cool "tactical" toys with little real life value.

Then let them buy their own. When I was a newspaper photographer I bought a lot of my own gear so I could do my job well. I'm sure most cops would buy their own rifles if they were allowed. I'm sure they want to do a good job too, since it may mean the difference in them going home alive or in a bag.

And cops will always die in car crashes more than in gun fights. They drive their cars for the entire shift every day, and may only discharge a weapon while on patrol a few times in their entire career.

If the argument is weather safe patrol cars or rifles are a higher priority in the police budget, then I might agree with you. But I strongly disagree with the "fuck the cops" crowd who don't think patrol cops need regular training with and access to rifles. The handgun or shotgun is not always the best tool for the job.

 

[Paladin3]

Sorry but one incident that took place over a decade ago isn't sufficient reason to buy vast amounts of equipment that 99.9% of police officers will never need.

First of all, it's not just one incident. (And please don't tell me to make a list of them all here and now or they didn't happen.)

Second, it's not like we are talking about buying them moon rovers and nuclear weapons. We're talking about common, relatively cheap, semi-auto rifles. Most cops would or are providing their own if the department allows it. It's not like it would bankrupt most departments.

I have a gun at home. I hope to heck I never have to use it to protect my life, and if I had to bet I would bet that I never will. That doesn't mean I would bet MY LIFE that I never will.

So if I was a cop, I wouldn't want to bet my life, and the lives of those I am sworn to protect and serve, that a handgun and shotgun will always adequate to respond the the given threat. Given that there is no real reason we should, I don't know why you think so. If it is purely budgetary then I am sad, but we can agree to disagree.

 

[ichy]

I've never been a member of the "fuck the cops" crowd. I'm generally a law & order type of person, although I do dislike LEOs who act like they're soldiers rather than police officers. I have no problem with letting police officer buy their own weapons as long as there's some sort of training requirement (they have to shoot a certain number of training rounds per year.) I also recognize that cops in rural areas where help is a long ways away might have more need for a rifle than police officers in an urban area who'll almost always have very quick backup.

I guess I've become kind of cynical because of the vast amount of "Homeland Security" spending that has taken place in the past ten years. Sure, there is some gear you have to buy "just in case" and will probably never use but it's also clear that some police departments have a fetish for fancy tactical toys that have virtually no use in real life policing.

 

[sourceninja]

Good grief, how much does an H&K P90 cost? How much would ammo for training cost? How many times do cops need to blast through heavy military-grade kevlar vests in real life?

I'm not saying they should do it, I'm just saying it's better suited for the task. It's easier to control (not that the AR isn't), can handle most body armor, and in terms of cost, it's not like they can't bulk order their ammo. I've never had a problem getting the ammo for my PS90 (not that it would be my SHTF rifle either...)

 

[Lithium381]

I've been googling and after 1932 I've only been able to find two murders caused by fully automatic weapons in the US. Anyone know of any more?

i'm suprised, thats not what the ANTI's and the brady campaign seem to think . . . ?

 

[Lithium381]

When did we move away from the .308? Hmm, Vietnam. When the Army was composed of a bunch of ill-trained conscripts that would spray and pray and had no marksmanship training.

So the need to carry more rounds was much more necessary than with a more well trained volunteer army.

Besides, the .223 is a varmint round. It's used for plinking squirrels and raccoons not hunting big game. If we want to keep the same magazines etc. we should be using a 6mm round.

I like the .308 (7.62) but think the .243 would be better for military purposes due to recoil and ballistics differences. We should at least be using a deer killing round for human killing... :hmm:

Police on the other hand should just keep using the hand me down weapons the military sells them at discount. :biggrin:

I concur, the .243 would be a perfect round for such situations based on power, recoil and ballistics . . 'tis my favorite calibre!

 

[RagingBITCH]

I've never been a member of the "fuck the cops" crowd. I'm generally a law & order type of person, although I do dislike LEOs who act like they're soldiers rather than police officers. I have no problem with letting police officer buy their own weapons as long as there's some sort of training requirement (they have to shoot a certain number of training rounds per year.) I also recognize that cops in rural areas where help is a long ways away might have more need for a rifle than police officers in an urban area who'll almost always have very quick backup.

I guess I've become kind of cynical because of the vast amount of "Homeland Security" spending that has taken place in the past ten years. Sure, there is some gear you have to buy "just in case" and will probably never use but it's also clear that some police departments have a fetish for fancy tactical toys that have virtually no use in real life policing.

The same can be said for a pistol, stun gun, mace. 99% of a policeman's job can be done without any weapon. Traffic violations, arrest warrants, patrol, standing around for security purposes, doing paperwork, etc. I don't use my gun daily but I have one at home, for that just in case purpose.

And a rifle is clearly in a different category than an armored personnel carrier that some SWAT teams have. That, is a fetish. A rifle costing anywhere from $500-$1000 a pop, not so much.

 

[AHamick]

And a rifle is clearly in a different category than an armored personnel carrier that some SWAT teams have. That, is a fetish.

Yea, cause when your primary role in a Police Dept is doing high risk jobs such as hostage/barricaded subject/active shooter calls its perfectly acceptable to put yourself in MORE danger by not approaching in an armored vehicle...

If a dept has an APC its not out on patrol answering calls for service. Its used primarily for moving a SWAT team into a dangerous area.

How can you claim an armored vehicle for SWAT teams is a fetish?

 

[AznAnarchy99]

How can you claim an armored vehicle for SWAT teams is a fetish?

http://youtu.be/0OZdFYWzw3c?t=20m37s

That's how

 

[boomhower]

Yea, cause when your primary role in a Police Dept is doing high risk jobs such as hostage/barricaded subject/active shooter calls its perfectly acceptable to put yourself in MORE danger by not approaching in an armored vehicle...

If a dept has an APC its not out on patrol answering calls for service. Its used primarily for moving a SWAT team into a dangerous area.

How can you claim an armored vehicle for SWAT teams is a fetish?

Our SWAT vehicle is a 10 year old hand me down ambulance largely redone on the swat guys own time at no cost to the dept. As mentioned almost all rifles are officer owned. With all the wasteful spending in the news most don't realize how underfunded the vast majority of departments are. We supply a lot of our own stuff with a lot of our other gear vastly outdated.