Ar15s replacing shotguns in police cruisers?

[boomhower]

I am curious. Those AKs you are seeing, full auto or semi?

Every single movie show only autos. Thus every single newscaster thinks every rifle is auto.

Seen lots of police that carry the shotgun in the cab and the AR in the trunk.

I've never seen one in the wild nor do I know of anyone who has in the state. Reality is that full auto is just way to hard to come by and expensive on the black market for your typical drug dealing thug to get their hands on.

Why not give the cops full autos (M16s) rather than AR-15s if they are facing AK-47s?

Because very very few agencies can afford to train their guys to properly handle a full auto. We have a few that are but no one is authorized to use it other that messing around at the range. I'd rather have a suppressor than full auto, in reality it is much more useful.

In a law enforcement scenario a full auto just doesn't make sense. 99% of the time you are engaging a single person. Spraying full auto just makes the likelihood of collateral damage much higher. Like I said earlier, the cost of properly training an Officer in full auto use is more than most agencies can afford. Heck we can't afford rifles no less training on FA. We have a few surplus rifles we got for free from the govt and the rest are officer owned.

grrr.. why cant civilians easily (and leagally) get 3round bursts in their ARs?

They can, it's not that hard. It's just expensive as they are rare since you nothing has been produced sine 87. $200 tax stamp plus the cost of whatever you buy, it's the latter that makes it hard to do.

 

[rommelrommel]

Full auto is for suppression fire IRL, and needs a belt fed weapon to be practical.

AR platform does everything that a shotgun does for the police and does it better so it's a no brainer IMO. More precise, less recoil, more compact, holds more ammo, more effective vs armor... why would you want a shotgun unless you're trying to shoot birds?

 

[irishScott]

And just how does a AR penetrate a Lvl4 body armor like those guys in LA had?

i would think a shotgun slug would do more dmg vs a lvl4?

Not about the armor. Headshots are a lot easier with AR-15s.

 

[bononos]

Full auto is for suppression fire IRL, and needs a belt fed weapon to be practical.

AR platform does everything that a shotgun does for the police and does it better so it's a no brainer IMO. More precise, less recoil, more compact, holds more ammo, more effective vs armor... why would you want a shotgun unless you're trying to shoot birds?

The intimidation effect of possibly eating 9 hard balls to the face.

 

[velillen]

I've never seen one in the wild nor do I know of anyone who has in the state. Reality is that full auto is just way to hard to come by and expensive on the black market for your typical drug dealing thug to get their hands on.

Good thing most are to stupid to know about things like slidefire/bump fire stocks 🙂 Cheap, legal way of getting a pretty much full auto ar/ak.



Full auto is just to expensive to shoot for someone who has to buy their own ammo. Ive fired a few full autos and its amazing how 60 rounds is gone in 20 seconds and your left going ok now what.


As for cops carrying ar's.....good for them. They should have weapons capable of matching what the bad guys have.

 

[boomhower]

why would you want a shotgun unless you're trying to shoot birds?

For house clearing. Searching a house with one suspect I'll take a shotgun any day. For across the room distances nothing is more devastating than gun old 00 buck. Now an entry on a search warrant or something where the threat is less known then I'll go rifle but in certain situations I'd rather have the instant stopping power of the 12ga.

 

[Imp]

MP-5s aren't "in" anymore?

 

[gorobei]

AR platform does everything that a shotgun does for the police and does it better so it's a no brainer IMO. More precise, less recoil, more compact, holds more ammo, more effective vs armor... why would you want a shotgun unless you're trying to shoot birds?

shotgun has options on less lethal rounds(beanbag, rubber baton, teargas and other irritants). rifle is pretty much lethal force only. escalation of force ladder means weapon with more options at lower levels can be used more often.

jumping to the top of the ladder every time by always bringing the AR is an invitation for a IA investigation, civil complaint, and certainly a private lawsuit.

 

[boomhower]

MP-5s aren't "in" anymore?

Many places still use them but most are moving towards AR's these days.

shotgun has options on less lethal rounds(beanbag, rubber baton, teargas and other irritants). rifle is pretty much lethal force only. escalation of force ladder means weapon with more options at lower levels can be used more often. Using a slug when you meant to use a bean bag or vise versa can have severe consequences.

jumping to the top of the ladder every time by always bringing the AR is an invitation for a IA investigation, civil complaint, and certainly a private lawsuit.

First paragraph is really a moot point. Pretty much everyone that uses less lethal options have dedicated guns that are orange or other distinctly colored to differ them from others. So the ability to shoot less lethal is almost never done, the potential to get the rounds mixed up is to severe to risk.

The second paragraph just makes no sense. If lethal force is justified it doesn't matter if it's 9mm, 223, or a baton to the head. Letal force is lethal force.

Now if your talking about people getting their panties in a wad because a cop has a rifle out then that can certainly be valid. You have to use some common sense, taking a rifle to a noise complaint is not a wise idea most of the time. If you feel the need to take a rifle with you to every call you are likely in the wrong line of work. Most places have SOP on when and how rifles can be took out, mine doesn't. If you need it get it, but we are a small department with quality guys that have brains and typically use them.

 

[BrayD]

I don't really have an issue with this. It's true that shotguns can be loaded with a variety of lethal and non-lethal rounds, but they have limited range and accuracy compared to a rifle. Using an AR-15 over a shotgun allows a responding officer to engage a threat at a longer distance, adding a level of safety that a shotgun doesn't have.

In addition, with most violent situations/ mass shootings/ etc, a regular patrol officer will be the first one there, not a heavily armed/armored tactical unit. The increased firepower will allow them to better handle and quickly end those situations rather than waiting even longer for a SWAT unit to arrive. I believe the Hollywood incident would have ended much quicker with less casualties and property damage had the initial responders been armed with AR-15's. They wouldn't have had to waste valuable time going to the nearest gun shop to get rifles as well.

Besides, its not like an officer is going to bust out an AR at a traffic stop, only in situations that are extremely dangerous to officers/civilians.

 

[gorobei]

Many places still use them but most are moving towards AR's these days.



First paragraph is really a moot point. Pretty much everyone that uses less lethal options have dedicated guns that are orange or other distinctly colored to differ them from others. So the ability to shoot less lethal is almost never done, the potential to get the rounds mixed up is to severe to risk.

dedicated shotguns are typical. in larger departments you can only afford so many, that limits the total number available for patrol on any given shift.
i was generally referring to the adapters for the larger diameter gas and beanbag rounds that mount to the muzzle of a normal shotgun. if you are mounting the adapter, chances are you are also using the propellant round so not a huge issue.

The second paragraph just makes no sense. If lethal force is justified it doesn't matter if it's 9mm, 223, or a baton to the head. Letal force is lethal force.

the poster i was responding to indicated that he saw no reason to ever carry a shotgun. AR only fires 223. while shotgun can go cs -> rubber/bean -> buckshot -> slug. if you only have the AR in the car, you are missing out on the lower tier use of force options that come with shotgun.

Now if your talking about people getting their panties in a wad because a cop has a rifle out then that can certainly be valid. You have to use some common sense, taking a rifle to a noise complaint is not a wise idea most of the time. If you feel the need to take a rifle with you to every call you are likely in the wrong line of work. Most places have SOP on when and how rifles can be took out, mine doesn't. If you need it get it, but we are a small department with quality guys that have brains and typically use them.

most of the time the first on scene and his back up arent bringing anything special. its only after they put the 'armed suspect' out over the radio that the third responder pulls the shotgun or AR when he arrives.
we had to clear an abandoned building once because someone outside heard a girl's cries coming from it and called it in. garbage and tons of other crap piled up everywhere, no lights, and the homeless had been using various corners of each room as a toilet. maybe a dozen officers for containment and search, turned out it was a some teens goofing around and rp mistook the girl's shriek/laughter. i dont think 1 officer even thought to pull a shotgun from the rack.

 

[DCal430]

Terrible, the police are turning to someone military force, they act like they are fighting some kind of war.

 

[irishScott]

Terrible, the police are turning to someone military force, they act like they are fighting some kind of war.

I'm more pissed about that bullshit $65 jaywalking ticket I got then any abuse or harrasement by the police, despite their scary rifles. Hell I even talked my way out of a ticket for not seeing a red left-turn arrow (the turn was otherwise perfectly safe). Some war.

 

[oynaz]

I have always found it strange that the police in gun-happy USA, of all places, seemed underequipped with those shotguns. Every police force in Europe, AFAIK, uses and has been using automatic weapons for decades.

Don't get me wrogn, I am all for heavily controlling your police officers. There have been altogether too many examples of police abusing their powers. But if a police officer wants to bully, they can just as easily do it with a pistol than an automatic rifle. But when it hits the fan, you want your officers to be properly equipped.

 

[classy]

Give them AA12s 🙂

 

[SandEagle]

The police force is actually pretty honest, and the AR-15's are because of all the civilian body armor. Like the LA shootings. Bullets were bouncing off those guys. Shotguns are nothing to sneer at, it just doesn't have penetration.

bs. that was a one-time deal. doesn't happen often. the AR15 is meant to instill fear in the general public. you WILL obey. or else.

 

[olds]

bs. that was a one-time deal. doesn't happen often. the AR15 is meant to instill fear in the general public. you WILL obey. or else.

A good citizen has more firepower (and knows how to use it) than the police.

 

[ichy]

I'm a shotgun/handgun guy myself. But in the situations that you guys find yourself in...I agree with you 100%.

Situations they find themselves in? When's the last time that police officers anywhere in the country actually were in a situation where they were seriously outgunnned?

 

[Zargon]

bs. that was a one-time deal. doesn't happen often. the AR15 is meant to instill fear in the general public. you WILL obey. or else.

also the AR has range and accuracy that a beadsighted 12g pump isnt going to have

Situations they find themselves in? When's the last time that police officers anywhere in the country actually were in a situation where they were seriously outgunnned?

go ask any mexico border state about that.....


I work a few smaller depts >200 officers on roster, 30 max on duty at once....

they cant afford to provide secondary weapons, so they let the officers bring their own assuming they can qual with it. most choose an AR over a shotgun, and certainly over an MP5(cost issue there)

shotgun has options on less lethal rounds(beanbag, rubber baton, teargas and other irritants). rifle is pretty much lethal force only. escalation of force ladder means weapon with more options at lower levels can be used more often.

jumping to the top of the ladder every time by always bringing the AR is an invitation for a IA investigation, civil complaint, and certainly a private lawsuit.

around me 2 of the 5 big depts have tasers, the rest just have OC spray. only swat has teargas, I dont tinik any of them have fancy shotgun rounds

 

[ichy]

go ask any mexico border state about that.....

Can you cite an actual incident where lack of firepower for the cops was an issue?

 

[sourceninja]

I've been googling and after 1932 I've only been able to find two murders caused by fully automatic weapons in the US. Anyone know of any more?

 

[olds]

Did the LA bank robbers kill anyone?

 

[pontifex]

I have always found it strange that the police in gun-happy USA, of all places, seemed underequipped with those shotguns. Every police force in Europe, AFAIK, uses and has been using automatic weapons for decades.

Don't get me wrogn, I am all for heavily controlling your police officers. There have been altogether too many examples of police abusing their powers. But if a police officer wants to bully, they can just as easily do it with a pistol than an automatic rifle. But when it hits the fan, you want your officers to be properly equipped.

Are they really full auto or just semi-auto versions? I really don't know much about what police forces in the UK and other European countries use.

there seems to be a lot more terrorism/war going on over the pond so i can see why they would have automatic weapons.

on the presidential debate the other night they were talking about banning full auto weapons and preventing the criminals from getting them. as others have said, full auto weapons in the hands of civilians and criminals in the US is very rare. There have been only a few incidents with full auto weapons over the last 80 years or so. the politicians and media have no idea wtf they are talking about (or this is done on purpose to scare the sheep).

 

[SP33Demon]

An AR + good scope > shotgun for deadly situation scenarios b/c of its range. If they have to actually go into a house, then a shotgun may be better in smaller spaces but that's the only situation.

 

[Jeeebus]

Situations they find themselves in? When's the last time that police officers anywhere in the country actually were in a situation where they were seriously outgunnned?

5 seconds on google. Are you honestly going to contend that if all police carried around revolvers, then there wouldn't be the prospect of them being outgunned?

http://newsok.com/police-chief-laments-criminals-access-to-military-style-guns/article/3532764

http://www.odmp.org/officer/20405-sergeant-robert-brandon-paudert

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/k...news/Police.release.report.on.shooting.at.ABB