Apple: The Kindle Fire will drive more people to iPads

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Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
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Apple logic.

"Fragmentation" is a thing, I guess, but it's not a thing that matters to anyone except forum dick-measurers. No one is going to be on the verge of buying a Fire and say "wait, Android is too fragmented, I had better spend more than double for an iPad instead."

That sentence doesn't even make any sense at all. It's not even a bad argument... it isn't an argument at all. I'm sure Apple will sell an assload of iPads, probably more than all other tablets combined, but it won't be "due to fragmentation."

Nail on the head.

I know a bunch of non-techy people that want a Kindle Fire- most of them don't even know what Android is, or that it runs the Kindle, let alone what "fragmentation" is. They know the brand names Amazon and Kindle, and that this is a color version of a product they already know and trust.

The same people aren't going to buy an iPad for the same purpose they want a Kindle- they want to read books on it, surf the web, and if it does more than that, great, but it's a bonus to them. The idea that they'd buy either a $200 Kindle or a $500 iPad is just silly.

Apple's just trying to plant a seed in the minds of all those that are waiting to buy the Kindle Fire that there's something wrong with doing so. So they use a term that does have a valid issue behind it- but NOTHING really to do with the Kindle Fire. I look for them next to play up the "you'll need virus protection on your Kindle!" angle too, mark my words.

It's one the dimmer aspects of Apple the company- a huge part of their corporate image is in casting everything else in a negative light. It appeals greatly to their rabid fan base that has their own self-image tied up in Apple, but not nearly as much to everyone else.
 
Feb 19, 2001
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And how does that directly affect sales? Do you think potential customers will cite "Android is fragmented" as a reason for getting an iPad over a Kindle Fire? The closest possible reason to that is "the Apple App Store is better," but that's something that might push people away from a more similarly priced 10" Android tablet to an iPad. People looking at the $200 Fire are not going to all of a sudden jump all the way to a $500 iPad because of fragmentation or any secondary effect that fragmentation may have.
fragmentation doesn't affect sales directly, but it affects the quality of the product. If Google went with 10 handsets total instead of 500, I can bet you the software would be far more optimized and would be better.

A lot of the conceptions/misconceptions of Apple fanboys would be dismissed. Things like stuttery UI and all that crap that plagues Android would surely be gone.

The average consumer doesn't care, but for those who are interested in comparing handsets, I bet you a lot would want the iPhone to have a larger screen, but due to the software immaturity of Android, end up sticking to the iPhone. So yes, for some fragmentation holds them back in an indirect manner.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
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As forked as the Fire and nook color are/will be, claiming Android isn't fragmented is kind of stupid.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
i agree
however it still doesn't matter at all to the general consumer

Agreed. I'll prob get one of each... Will keep my pre order Fire active and check out how well they integrated Prime member's streaming of content, and likely score a refurb nc 2 for hacking.

Tired of hacking my phone, I need it to work, but tablet hacking is something else... :biggrin:
 

Dulanic

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2000
9,951
570
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As forked as the Fire and nook color are/will be, claiming Android isn't fragmented is kind of stupid.

People claiming fragmentation is horrible is kind of stupid however. It is a Apple buzz word meant to be negative. To myself, it means choices. PC was "fragmented" and yet it blew Apple away for the past 20 years.

I want choice, as do many others. I should have a choice of spending $300 for a phone with a fast CPU and more memory or spend $0 for a slow phone because I don't care about games. "Fragmentation" did wonders for the PC, and in marketshare it is doing wonders for Android.

Fragmentation is just a buzz word that doesn't really mean shit.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
People claiming fragmentation is horrible is kind of stupid however. It is a Apple buzz word meant to be negative. To myself, it means choices. PC was "fragmented" and yet it blew Apple away for the past 20 years.

I want choice, as do many others. I should have a choice of spending $300 for a phone with a fast CPU and more memory or spend $0 for a slow phone because I don't care about games. "Fragmentation" did wonders for the PC, and in marketshare it is doing wonders for Android.

Fragmentation is just a buzz word that doesn't really mean shit.

Fragmentation is not just a buzz word. It means there are different devices running different versions of Android and even then running some kind of customized skin for the device. Yes it means choice, but it also means sometimes devices won't get updated to the newest version. This means developers have a harder time targeting a specific OS version.

Also, the Kindle Fire is in a totally different market than the iPad. The Kindle Fire is targeted towards people that wouldn't even consider buying an iPad. There are plenty of ~$200 tablet devices, such as the next Nook Color, so yes, there will be competition at that price point. The attrition from iPad sales will be minimal.
 

slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,945
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The ironic thing is that Amazon will actually de-fragment the Android tablet market with the Kindle Fire.... it will dominate it. It won't matter whether it's actually Android underneath or if they switch to something else (still hoping that Amazon buys WebOS from HP) but in the end it is Amazon's tablet and they will have full vertical control over it. I see it as the only possible competitor to the iPad, and Amazon's integrated ecosystem (App Store + music/book/movie content) beats even Apple's IMO. (I am an Apple fan, an Apple user, and an Apple investor. The Kindle Fire scares the crap out of me, from those perspectives.) The fact is, everybody already uses Amazon. Everybody already has Amazon accounts. Amazon already has millions of Prime subscribers for whom the Fire is a no-brainer. $200 is dead cheap. Nobody will really care that the screen area is 50% of an iPad's when the price is 40%. Hell, I am thinking pretty seriously about buying a Kindle Fire myself, and I have two Macs (three if you count my wife's) and an iPhone. $500 is "serious money" level... can't just go spend it on a whim. $200 is not quite "impulse purchase" level, but a whole lot less thought has to go into a $200 purchase than a $500 purchase.

The smartphone market is not a good predictor for the tablet market. The marketing is simply so different. Cell phone penetration is over 90%, and a huge proportion of those whose contracts come up for renewal move to a smartphone over their old feature phone. Smartphones are becoming the standard. What they consumer sees when they go into their AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile or Sprint store is the lineup that they can choose from. Usually they will go with whatever's free unless they really have a strong desire for a particular model. Until the iPhone 4S came out and the 3GS dropped to $0 with contract, all the free smartphones were Android phones. Now that the 3GS is "free" I think that Apple will start to claw back some smartphone market share from Android.

But I was wanting to talk about tablets, and how they're different from smartphones. You don't buy a tablet on a contract, and most people don't have an old tablet to replace. 90%+ of Americans have a cell phone they will be replacing within 2 years... the cellular providers have been very good at promoting that 2-year upgrade/contract cycle. Most people will stay with their current provider and move to a smartphone. That's a built-in market for smartphones. Tablets are sold completely differently. Everybody "needs" a phone, but nobody "needs" a tablet, and nobody is going to get one for "free" subsidized by the phone company. The tablet market is determined more by old-fashioned marketing and getting stuff out there on the store shelves since there is no built-in driver of sales like there is with smartphones.

Speaking of store shelves, it is my opinion/observation that the iPad market is getting saturated, at least at the current price levels. I have seen inventory levels go WAY up in my local Wal-Marts and other stores that stock iPads. Earlier in the year, the cabinet was empty; maybe they'd get one or two in and that's all that you could see. Now the iPad cabinets at the Wal-Marts are looking pretty full, for the first time in my memory.

So I am thinking that Apple will be forced to drop the price on the iPad. To $400 at least, if not $350 or even $300. They will still make a profit, but it will be much smaller. They will lose crazy amounts of market share to Amazon if they don't lower the price. $200 is just too cheap to compete with on the merits. You have to compete on price when you're being undercut by 60% and your profit margin is 50%+.

A couple of other thoughts. People keep comparing iPhone/iPad vs. Android as being similar to Mac vs. Windows back in the 80's/90's. The simple fact is, Windows was never even close to being as fragmented as Android is now. Imagine that Microsoft released a "Windows 95, Compaq Presario 690 Edition" and a "Windows 95, Packard Bell 3200 Edition" and a "Windows 95, HP Pavilion 5030 Edition"... and then it gets worse, because you have vendor-specific versions of each of those. So multiply all of those manufacturer/model specific editions by "Best Buy Edition" and "Circuit City Edition" and "CompUSA Edition". And you couldn't get updates from Microsoft, you had to go back to the store you bought it from, and the store you bought it from would have to get the updated OS from Compaq or HP or Packard Bell... and if Compaq took a while updating the version for your particular PC, you'd be SOL. Microsoft never let things get out of hand like that. They supported lots of hardware, but there were only VERY minor tweaks that the vendors could make to Windows itself. A few extra icons on the desktop, maybe a branded desktop background and a couple of installed programs on top.

The strength of the openness/fragmentation on the desktop was in that anyone could customize the hardware. Add more RAM? Easy. Swap out hard drives? Simple. Install a network card, or a faster modem, or a faster processor? Plug it in, install the drivers if necessary, and you're done. Desktop PC cases are a large enough and user-friendly enough form factor that we can customize their innards to a huge degree. But you move to a smaller form factor, and you can't do that much to it. The components are all too integrated. In most laptops you can swap RAM, hard drive, optical drive, and that's it. GPU and CPU are soldered in. Tablets and laptops are even worse. You might get an SD card slot, but other than that, there's not a single thing you can do to alter or augment the device itself. (External add-ons, of course, are a different story.) I guess where I'm going with this is that I don't think the "openness" argument makes much sense in a market where the hardware itself is entirely closed and the device format itself limits tinkering and hacking.

In a similar vein... I have no idea why MS would allow Windows 8 to be supported by every old OEM that comes along. MS has had great success with the Xbox (and really, IMO, with most of their hardware -- I have used MS keyboards and mice for over 10 years). The Zune failed, but that wasn't the fault of the hardware (or the software, for that matter). There should be just one Windows 8 Tablet, and it should have Microsoft's name on it. Maybe two if they want to go with multiple screen sizes. Maybe even slap some Xbox branding on it. Call it the XTab. Tie it in to the Xbox with gaming and entertainment (I think I saw somewhere that a ridiculous percentage of Netflix streaming users used the 360 as their playback device). Maybe have a separate branding for the corporate/IT side (but keep the actual hardware the same -- maybe a different, more businesslike bezel and other external design, but the screen/internals would all be the same). Can you imagine an Office Tablet? That comes with a fully customized tablet version of Word, Excel, and Powerpoint, which are dead simple to sync with the PC apps, and integrated with a powerful e-mail client? Holy crap, MS could *own* the corporate tablet market just like they own the corporate desktop market. The Office ecosystem is one of Microsoft's biggest strengths, and if they leverage it with a business-oriented tablet then I think it would be a great success.

Integrated/consolidated is simply the way to go in the tablet market IMO. All the different tablet makers are basically using the same SOCs anyway. I don't see enough to differentiate them, and they're all in a rush to the bottom in terms of pricing. The OEMs are all out to slice each others' throats, and in the end there will be very little profit left to spread around, and MS will occupy a part of the market they might not want to be in. They should go with just one Windows tablet, make it Microsoft-branded with a little more premium feel than most Android tablets, and provide a great, fully-integrated experience like Apple and Amazon.

Sorry for the huge wall of text but I have been thinking about these things for a while (although I just now thought of the MS Office Tablet) and just needed to get it out. I really think that Apple will drop the price on the iPad2 before Christmas. The inventory is piling up, the sales have plateaued and they need a good kick in the pants to get selling again. A price drop is just what the doctor ordered. Sure it will cut into their crazy margins, but the more marketshare they can build now, the more they can dominate the market in the future. I think it is really going to turn into a slugfest between Amazon and Apple. Google won't have anything to do with it. Microsoft can join in if they are savvy about their marketing and leverage existing strengths like Xbox and Office.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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The $99/$149 HP Touchpad proved that impulse-buy pricing applies to everything, even something that most people don't really need (like a tablet).

Amazon is on track to sell 5 million Kindle Fires this quarter. That's 5 million people who will join the Android/Amazon ecosystem.

After their free month of Amazon prime, many of them will sign up for a full Prime subscription (one of the best deals going IMO). They'll stream Amazon Instant Video, buy Kindle books, download Amazon MP3s, and Android apps from Amazon's App Store.

A year from now, when they're looking for a higher-end 10" tablet, those buyers will more than likely upgrade to Amazon's Hollywood (direct iPad competitor) tablet instead of losing all their purchases and starting from scratch.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
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I guess where I'm going with this is that I don't think the "openness" argument makes much sense in a market where the hardware itself is entirely closed and the device format itself limits tinkering and hacking.

You only say that because you come from such a heavy Apple perspective. Thanks to the openness of Android, I am able to:

-Hack my ebook reader to be a full tablet
-Overclock both my ebook reader and my phone
-Calibrate the colors on my phone
-Add in kernel support for both devices so I can use cifs and nfs

Plus I would argue that in the 90's Windows was VERY fragmented- in a short time you had Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows 98 SE, Windows ME, Windows 2000. It wasn't until XP that the fragmentation stopped, and by then Windows had "won."

MS has had great success with the Xbox

Um, if anything the RROD fallout with the 360 (and the BILLIONS it cost MS) probably did more than anything to reconfirm their old model of just making software, and letting other OEMs tackle the hardware.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
I think the Fire is a compelling device at its price point, but its shortcomings compared to the iPad--which I'd love to own, but refuse to spend $500 to do so--are substantial.

I still think both are toys, though. I really want an ipad for $200, which obviously doesn't exist. I pre-ordered the Fire, but don't expect to use it now; will either cancel or resell after if supply is limited.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,752
2,717
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You only say that because you come from such a heavy Apple perspective. Thanks to the openness of Android, I am able to:

-Hack my ebook reader to be a full tablet
-Overclock both my ebook reader and my phone
-Calibrate the colors on my phone
-Add in kernel support for both devices so I can use cifs and nfs

Plus I would argue that in the 90's Windows was VERY fragmented- in a short time you had Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows 98 SE, Windows ME, Windows 2000. It wasn't until XP that the fragmentation stopped, and by then Windows had "won."
Since the mid 1990s, Windows has had an iron-clad monopoly. Windows was never really fragmented because backwards compatibility has always been a Microsoft hallmark. Your description of fragmentation would mean separate Android versions 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 create fragmentation and that's not what this debate is about.

In reality, any software that ran on Win95 ran on later 9x releases; and later ran on WinXP if it didn't require low-level hardware access. About the only time there was a fragmentation issue was when two different choices co-existed, Windows 2000 and Me. At the time, NT/2000 was positioned as a workstation operating system, so very few customers actually had a decision to make.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
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There is no fragmentation issue with the Kindle Fire. It runs Amazon's App store, not the Google Android market. Amazon is going to make sure most if not all the apps from their own market work on their own tablet.

Apple calls it "fragmentation", I call it "competition/choice".
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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Amazon is going to make sure all the apps from their own market work on their own tablet.

I don't know about that. The Amazon App market already has Samurai II: Vengeance, which is a Tegra game that won't be compatible with the Fire. I bought the Amazon version, and I have to use Chainfire to get it to work on my devices (something NOT in Amazon's store).
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
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I don't know about that. The Amazon App market already has Samurai II: Vengeance, which is a Tegra game that won't be compatible with the Fire. I bought the Amazon version, and I have to use Chainfire to get it to work on my devices (something NOT in Amazon's store).

Edited to reflect this new found info. ;)

If Amazon were smart, they would only display apps that would work with the Fire then. Seems like the logical thing to do.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
I don't know about that. The Amazon App market already has Samurai II: Vengeance, which is a Tegra game that won't be compatible with the Fire. I bought the Amazon version, and I have to use Chainfire to get it to work on my devices (something NOT in Amazon's store).
Amazon will make it work.

How do you think Apple keeps iPhone 3G owners from installing Infinity Blade?
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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If Amazon were smart, they would only display apps that would work with the Fire then. Seems like the logical thing to do.

That is what I guess they will do.

Amazon will make it work.

More likely Amazon will prevent the purchasing of Tegra games on the Fire. I don't see Amazon pre-loading Chainfire (though that would be awesome and Nvidia deserves it).
 

MagickMan

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2008
7,460
3
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Most tablets only cost ~200 to make to begin with, depending on the size/quality of the screen and the amount of internal storage. Apple makes bank on the iPad because they build it for 200-250 and sell it to for 500 and up. Asus, Moto, Samsung can't do what Amazon and B&N are doing, using content sales to offset the minimal profit made per unit sold. Its hardly a new business model, consoles have been doing it for years, with great success. Most of the time.

All true, but I wouldn't call it "great success". It's profitable, but not at the level that Apple's accustomed to. "Scrounging" for <10% profit margins isn't anything that Apple wants to be involved in.
 

Kevmanw430

Senior member
Mar 11, 2011
279
0
76
Not to change sublect, but I'll get one once the CyanogenMod team releases a 2.3 or, by then, ICS port of stock android to the Fire. :)
 

KLin

Lifer
Feb 29, 2000
29,543
156
106
Not to change sublect, but I'll get one once the CyanogenMod team releases a 2.3 or, by then, ICS port of stock android to the Fire. :)

What if Amazon comes up with some way of not allowing you to use their services if they detect that your kindle fire has been modded with a custom firmware?
 

MrX8503

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2005
4,529
0
0
I think the Fire will take some sales away from the iPad based on price alone. I think the thing that would hold the Fire back is Amazon marketing it more as of an e-reader.

As for fragmentation, it doesn't affect sales directly, but rather indirectly. Indirectly by not having the polish, fit and finish of iOS. A consumer may pick up an iPhone because it has higher quality apps. They may not know what fragmentation is, but that doesn't change that fragmentation was the reason they passed on an Android device.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,078
136
What if Amazon comes up with some way of not allowing you to use their services if they detect that your kindle fire has been modded with a custom firmware?

They already have a buttload of apps for all Android devices. I can probably get by with those.
And since Android supports Flash, I can watch their videos in a regular old web page.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
I think the Fire will take some sales away from the iPad based on price alone. I think the thing that would hold the Fire back is Amazon marketing it more as of an e-reader.

As for fragmentation, it doesn't affect sales directly, but rather indirectly. Indirectly by not having the polish, fit and finish of iOS. A consumer may pick up an iPhone because it has higher quality apps. They may not know what fragmentation is, but that doesn't change that fragmentation was the reason they passed on an Android device.

And someone can choose Android over iOS because they can get a phone with a large screen or a keyboard or many other features iOS can't provide and the reason was because of the restrictions of iOS. It goes both ways and more people are showing which they prefer and showing fragmentation doesn't matter at all.
 

MrX8503

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2005
4,529
0
0
And someone can choose Android over iOS because they can get a phone with a large screen or a keyboard or many other features iOS can't provide and the reason was because of the restrictions of iOS. It goes both ways and more people are showing which they prefer and showing fragmentation doesn't matter at all.

Well fragmentation may not be a big enough fault to keep Android from being the top mobile device, but it may still be a reason for some to not make the transition to Android.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
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Ipad2 is a great performer and quality apps abound, might be a good buy if someone was going to spend long hours on it or a stable, fast platform for a presentation say but for so many people a tablet is basically an internet toy/fun/game device to drag around and cant justify spending $500 for one. My Novo 7 advanced cost $139. (it's back on sale) and does all I need/want and is buttery fast, yea, it's a no-name Chinese tablet but they've already upgraded the firmware twice so decent support so far. Fire will sell well but the omission of a memory upgrade slot is puzzling as even the cheapest $70 "7 tab on Ebay has a micro sd slot, how much did Amazon save per unit by not including one??.