Apathy and refunds are more dangerous than Piracy

[ImpulsE69]

However, just like piracy, the number of sales lost because of DRM is not a quantifiable number.

True, but here's 2. That's a quantifiable number.

 

[waggy]

While i dislike DRM i don't think its as big a issue when buying a game. First i look at the business's history.

Let's start with a company with good reputation. Blizzard. I own all the Warcraft and diablo games. hell i even pre-ordered some (something i rarely do). After the debacle that was Diablo III i won't EVER do that again. they now slid to my "wait 6 months before buying"

I also own nearly every Sim game (well not many of the expansions to "the sims"). when i seen simcity 5 was coming out i was excited. But with a combination of knowing EA's history and being lazy i didn't get it (and still don't). this is one i might not get at all.

a shitty release and terrible PR skills does far more to hurt you then DRM.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Saying that someone who didn't pay for a game shouldn't be entitled to enjoy that game is "vengeance"? How so?



He not only implied it, he flat out stated it, and in the first paragraph of the piece: "As a forward thinking developer who exists in the present, I realize and accept that a pirated copy of a digital game does not equate to money being taken out of my pocket. Team Meat shows no loss in our year end totals due to piracy and neither should any other developer."

That is false. Period. Whether the losses can be quantified or not has no impact on whether or not they exist.



Most of the decisions in business involve things that cannot be strictly quantified. You still have to make the decisions. You use estimates and past experience to guide judgments. You don't just throw your hands in the air and say "since I don't know for sure what this costs, I'll pretend the cost is zero".

It's just plain nonsense.

This doesn't mean that you necessarily pull out all the stops and put super-nasty DRM on everything. But at the same time, this guy would like me to believe that all the steps that hundreds of software developers take to try to prevent piracy are all for naught, and I'm not buying it.



No, I read the piece and saw stupid reasoning, and then I saw comments like "People need to learn to embrace and love piracy, because it's the way of our world", and that tripped my wire.

Maybe if there were more people actually willing to stand up for honesty around this place, I wouldn't have to do it so often.

I don't think his reasoning is stupid at all. His argument isn't that just because you can't quantify piracy, you should ignore it. His argument is that moving heaven and earth to combat piracy and implement DRM will cost you a lot more in paying, faithful customers than you'll gain in reformed pirates. Net loss. I tend to agree with him.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

honestly super meat boy wasn't that good imho. they also screwed over a bunch of early purchasers of the game when it just came out. It came out and like a week later it was on a steam sale for something like 75% off. Didn't offer anything to "early" purchasers. Pissed off a lot of people.

 

[Markbnj]

Maybe he can't, but lots of other software companies do.

Well, obviously you can engage in any activity, however futile. My "can't plan" should have been read as "can't successfully plan," so maybe I should have written it that way. I don't think any software companies successfully plan a strategy to deal with IP theft unless they only ship physical copies that require a dongle. All other methods of combating IP theft in the software industry appear to have failed. I don't know that they've failed, of course, because we're already agreed that we can't measure success or failure.

If I remember correctly you write words, not code, for a living, correct? I wonder if you'd be as focused on IP thieves if the management of your publisher informed you that they intended to change fundamental aspects of the way you write, and even what you write about, because their analysis had determined it would positively impact the theft of your work. They can't say how much your work is stolen, or how much of an impact the changes will have, but the new policy is that they'll work great, so from now on this is how you write, this is what you write about, these are the things your readers will have to do every time they open up one of your works. Would you be as gung-ho? Because that's what it's ended up being about for game designers.

 

[ImpulsE69]

No mod callouts

AT Moderator ElFenix

 

[cheezy321]

honestly super meat boy wasn't that good imho. they also screwed over a bunch of early purchasers of the game when it just came out. It came out and like a week later it was on a steam sale for something like 75% off. Didn't offer anything to "early" purchasers. Pissed off a lot of people.

what a crock of crap. So you think that just because you purchased an item you are entitled to receive a refund any time that item drops in price? How can you apply that logic to anything you purchased?

Did you ask the previous homeowners to give you money back when your house dropped in value?

Did you ask the car dealership to give you money back when they were running an end of the year clearance on your car model?

Did you go back to frys electronics and return your TV a year (hell even a week) later because the price on it had dropped?

Entitlement mentality FTL.

 

[purbeast0]

honestly super meat boy wasn't that good imho. they also screwed over a bunch of early purchasers of the game when it just came out. It came out and like a week later it was on a steam sale for something like 75% off. Didn't offer anything to "early" purchasers. Pissed off a lot of people.

not sure how that is "screwing early purchasers". the people who paid full price obviously thought it was worth full price or else they would not have purchased it. if they didn't think it was worth it they wouldn't have purchased it.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Let's start with a company with good reputation. Blizzard. I own all the Warcraft and diablo games. hell i even pre-ordered some (something i rarely do). After the debacle that was Diablo III i won't EVER do that again. they now slid to my "wait 6 months before buying"

There's an effective anti-piracy measure right there. Make games so bad that nobody even wants to steal them.

 

[gorcorps]

honestly super meat boy wasn't that good imho. they also screwed over a bunch of early purchasers of the game when it just came out. It came out and like a week later it was on a steam sale for something like 75% off. Didn't offer anything to "early" purchasers. Pissed off a lot of people.

I hate people who whine about price drops, because of this:

what a crock of crap. So you think that just because you purchased an item you are entitled to receive a refund any time that item drops in price? How can you apply that logic to anything you purchased?

Did you ask the previous homeowners to give you money back when your house dropped in value?

Did you ask the car dealership to give you money back when they were running an end of the year clearance on your car model?

Did you go back to frys electronics and return your TV a year (hell even a week) later because the price on it had dropped?

Entitlement mentality FTL.

and that:

not sure how that is "screwing early purchasers". the people who paid full price obviously thought it was worth full price or else they would not have purchased it. if they didn't think it was worth it they wouldn't have purchased it.

 

[cheezy321]

Every couple of years something happens that allows pirates to mentally justify the fact that they refuse to pay for stuff.

SimCity was their golden goose. Now they all can trot around the fact that the SimCity debacle justifies the fact that they steal everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that every person that pirates would buy the game/movie if they couldn't steal it. Far from it. I also agree with the OP in that you can't quantify pirated copies as 'lost revenue'.

I have an issue with all the pirates out there that think things like this justify you stealing a game. Give me a break. Companies should not 'embrace piracy' as one person in this thread wrote. What a joke.

You are a cheap ass that thinks theft of items is OK in most situations. You will find any reason, no matter how ridiculous, to justify your theft of someone elses hard work. So what if you aren't stealing an actual good? You are stealing someones hard work. Lets call a spade a spade

 

[ImpulsE69]

Every couple of years something happens that allows pirates to mentally justify the fact that they refuse to pay for stuff.

SimCity was their golden goose. Now they all can trot around the fact that the SimCity debacle justifies the fact that they steal everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that every person that pirates would buy the game/movie if they couldn't steal it. Far from it. I also agree with the OP in that you can't quantify pirated copies as 'lost revenue'.

I have an issue with all the pirates out there that think things like this justify you stealing a game. Give me a break. Companies should not 'embrace piracy' as one person in this thread wrote. What a joke.

You are a cheap ass that thinks theft of items is OK in most situations. You will find any reason, no matter how ridiculous, to justify your theft of someone elses hard work. So what if you aren't stealing an actual good? You are stealing someones hard work. Lets call a spade a spade

*Scratches head, re-reads article and thread. Scratches head. Walks away.

 

[Midwayman]

Spoken like someone who hasn't really hit the cold reality of piracy yet. Not only are his estimates of piracy of his game way off according to most industry estimates, piracy does have an effect. He doesn't even factor in costs directly incurred by pirates. Some companies report that over half tech support calls they get are about bugs deliberately introduced into pirated copies of the games. The only thing he's really right about is that A) We can't calculate it exactly and B) that one pirated copy doesn't equal one lost sale. Im fairly surprised to hear such uneducated drivel come from a game developer.

 

[lxskllr]

Some companies report that over half tech support calls they get are about bugs deliberately introduced into pirated copies of the games.

Did you really write that?! Companies intentionally break products, and then spend money handling the complaints of said breakage. Who's fault is that? :^D

 

[BoberFett]

If I roll a six-sided die, I have no way of knowing if it will come up with a "6". But I still know that if I do it 600,000 times, I will get a "6" on about 100,000 of those rolls.

Major statistics failure.

On any given die roll you have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 6. You could roll 600,000 times and never get a 6.

Any given consumer will either buy or not buy your product, the choice is binary. That does not mean that the losses from piracy are 50% of the number of pirated downloads.

 

[Ancalagon44]

Spoken like someone who hasn't really hit the cold reality of piracy yet. Not only are his estimates of piracy of his game way off according to most industry estimates, piracy does have an effect. He doesn't even factor in costs directly incurred by pirates. Some companies report that over half tech support calls they get are about bugs deliberately introduced into pirated copies of the games. The only thing he's really right about is that A) We can't calculate it exactly and B) that one pirated copy doesn't equal one lost sale. Im fairly surprised to hear such uneducated drivel come from a game developer.

What does it matter if his estimate is way off? You said it yourself, we actually dont know.

His point is, is it worth spending money and time on something you cant even quantify, especially when you know almost anything you do will upset your paying customers?

So you're saying we should spend money on DRM with no justification?

Sheesh I didnt think his writing was that difficult to understand!

 

[TheShiz]

honestly super meat boy wasn't that good imho. they also screwed over a bunch of early purchasers of the game when it just came out. It came out and like a week later it was on a steam sale for something like 75% off. Didn't offer anything to "early" purchasers. Pissed off a lot of people.

just want to toss in my opinion that I thought super meat boy was awesome, one of my favorite games of all time. I completed it 100%. It's a pure fun platformer and easily lets you move on to other levels if you get frustrated. if you are willing to put in a lot of time it is really rewarding because you can get really good at it. I destroy levels with meat boy, never got around to using other characters because I like the pure run/jump gameplay with meat boy. only thing I didn't like was not being able to change the controls because I use a fightstick and wanted the buttons to be run then jump, like the original super mario, but I just rewired a fightstick to accomodate this. awesome game, reading this makes me want to play it again. $15 was a bargain and anything cheaper even better of a deal. I bought the game on x360, pc, bought the comics and some of the other junk merchandise they sling because I love the game. McMillen is right, people who love certain games will buy and support them.

 

[cheezy321]

*Scratches head, re-reads article and thread. Scratches head. Walks away.

In this thread:
One person saying 'Companies should embrace piracy!'

We got another saying 'Piracy results in MORE SALES!'

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

I never said complained the price drops. I only post about them on my blog. I do feel remorseful for the early adopters because there was a pre-order promo for the game and it was implied the game wouldn't be on sale for a cheaper price for some time. Maybe a week later it was already 75% off.

the guy who posted all those ask for money back scenarios doesn't even make sense. OK maybe I wouldn't ask for cash back for a home purchase but plenty of companies have a policy where you can ask for a price adjustment within an X amount of days.

Lands End
If an item you purchased from landsend.com or a Lands’ End catalog goes on sale for a lower price within 14 days of your original purchase, Lands’ End will refund the difference upon request. “On The Counter”, “Doorbusters” pricing excluded.

Express
We will process a one-time price adjustment for in store purchases when an original sales receipt is presented within 14 days of the purchase date. Price adjustments are refunded in the same tender as the original purchase

Best Buy
http://www.investopedia.com/financi...-price-adjustments-to-get-the-best-deals.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_adjustment_(retail)

Price adjustments, also called price protection, occur when a customer buys a product at full price, and then, within a given time frame, that product goes on sale. Retailers will do a “price adjustment,” refunding the difference between the price the customer paid and the price now available. For example, if a customer buys a TV from Best Buy for $300, and it drops in price by $100, they can go back to the retailer to ask for a price adjustment and get the difference returned to them, often in cash. Retailers with price adjustment policies include Macy's, Gap, and Staples. Retailers often have price adjustment policies because they are known to increase consumer loyalty to that retailer.

 

[ImpulsE69]

In this thread:
One person saying 'Companies should embrace piracy!'

We got another saying 'Piracy results in MORE SALES!'

Not really seeing that. I saw one direct comment, but you're going to get that.

This was posted in a thread over in the games section. While I'm sure many people will pan it, it's relevant and just as good an estimate as the mocked up piracy numbers people throw around.

http://www.dailytech.com/EU+Govt+Res...ticle30166.htm

 

[Charles Kozierok]

On any given die roll you have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 6. You could roll 600,000 times and never get a 6.

In theory, yes. In practice, you could run that experiment nonstop until the sun burns out and it would never happen. Read up on the law of large numbers.

Any given consumer will either buy or not buy your product, the choice is binary. That does not mean that the losses from piracy are 50% of the number of pirated downloads.

Good thing I never used the number 50%!

I objected to people who are assuming the number is 0%.

However, just like piracy, the number of sales lost because of DRM is not a quantifiable number.

Heh. Nice turnaround there.

I don't think anyone is saying that these people don't exist. Personally, I'm not even arguing against DRM. But you have to recognize the futility of DRM. Typically it's just as easy to pirate a game that has draconian "always online" DRM as it is to pirate games that require a simple CD key. The time required to crack these games seems to be similar as well. Whether it requires a fixed executable or a keygen program the pirate goes through about the same amount of trouble. The only difference is that the nastier the DRM is the greater the disparity between the legally purchased game experience and the pirated game experience.

I agree to an extent. I think it depends on the type of protection used.

People fall into a spectrum in terms of how much effort they are willing to take to circumvent copy protection. No scheme will stop every thief, but most of them will stop a majority of them.

Highly technically sophisticated people can find their way around these systems. But average Joes will not. It's a lot easier for the typical consumer to cough up $20 for a game than to spend hours trying to figure out how to get it for free. All that protection does is provide a disincentive for casual stealing.

By way of analogy, locking your car and turning on an alarm, doesn't guarantee that you won't have your stereo stolen, but it improves the odds compared to leaving the car unlocked with no alarm.

What particularly galls me about these discussions is that much of the complaining about DRM comes from the very people who make DRM necessary in the first place.

 

[cheezy321]

I never said complained the price drops. I only post about them on my blog. I do feel remorseful for the early adopters because there was a pre-order promo for the game and it was implied the game wouldn't be on sale for a cheaper price for some time. Maybe a week later it was already 75% off.

the guy who posted all those ask for money back scenarios doesn't even make sense. OK maybe I wouldn't ask for cash back for a home purchase but plenty of companies have a policy where you can ask for a price adjustment within an X amount of days.

Lands End
If an item you purchased from landsend.com or a Lands’ End catalog goes on sale for a lower price within 14 days of your original purchase, Lands’ End will refund the difference upon request. “On The Counter”, “Doorbusters” pricing excluded.

Express
We will process a one-time price adjustment for in store purchases when an original sales receipt is presented within 14 days of the purchase date. Price adjustments are refunded in the same tender as the original purchase

Best Buy
http://www.investopedia.com/financi...-price-adjustments-to-get-the-best-deals.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_adjustment_(retail)

Jus

Price adjustments, also called price protection, occur when a customer buys a product at full price, and then, within a given time frame, that product goes on sale. Retailers will do a “price adjustment,” refunding the difference between the price the customer paid and the price now available. For example, if a customer buys a TV from Best Buy for $300, and it drops in price by $100, they can go back to the retailer to ask for a price adjustment and get the difference returned to them, often in cash. Retailers with price adjustment policies include Macy's, Gap, and Staples. Retailers often have price adjustment policies because they are known to increase consumer loyalty to that retailer.

Still doesn't address the fact that because one store offers it, you believe you are entitled to it in any situation.

 

[Midwayman]

Did you really write that?! Companies intentionally break products, and then spend money handling the complaints of said breakage. Who's fault is that? :^D

Do people really call up companies for support on products they have pirated? Shockingly the answer is yes. And they don't intentionally break products. They make it so removing their DRM causes a specific bug to show up. If you bought it you would never see the bug.

 

[ImpulsE69]

I objected to people who are assuming the number is 0%.

I really don't think anyone is saying it is, not even the article.

 

[xanis]

Every couple of years something happens that allows pirates to mentally justify the fact that they refuse to pay for stuff.

SimCity was their golden goose. Now they all can trot around the fact that the SimCity debacle justifies the fact that they steal everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that every person that pirates would buy the game/movie if they couldn't steal it. Far from it. I also agree with the OP in that you can't quantify pirated copies as 'lost revenue'.

I have an issue with all the pirates out there that think things like this justify you stealing a game. Give me a break. Companies should not 'embrace piracy' as one person in this thread wrote. What a joke.

You are a cheap ass that thinks theft of items is OK in most situations. You will find any reason, no matter how ridiculous, to justify your theft of someone elses hard work. So what if you aren't stealing an actual good? You are stealing someones hard work. Lets call a spade a spade

*facepalm*

God damn he's right. People need to learn to embrace and love piracy, because it's the way of our world. You can't stop it and if you treat it correctly, it won't hurt you, or at least not nearly as much as you think it will.

*facepalm*