Anyone have experience with B&W subs?

[Deeko]

So I’m about a week in. I’ve found the optimal placement for both subs (luckily, it’s not the same place, no one wants to be dragging those heavy boxes around), tweaked the settings, and let them break in a bit. Done some more listening.

As has already been said, it’s not really surprising that the Bowers was better at music – and it still is. It really isn’t a contest there, for my ears anyway. For music, the Bowers sounds cleaner, smoother, tighter, and stronger. Which you’d expect, given that it’s sealed.

However, for home theater, the results are….well, still muddled. The deep end prowess of the SVS can’t be denied, but above that it really seems to…disappear. Now, I realize that a good subwoofer isn’t supposed to be noticed, it’s supposed to seamlessly integrate into the rest of the system. It isn’t that, so much as, the output above let’s say 40hz seems noticeably weak. If I compensate by raising the gain such that those frequencies are more pronounced, the low end is too strong, it just doesn’t feel like I can get an even setting there.

Meanwhile, the Bowers does those upper bass frequencies great, but when it gets too deep, sometimes it fades away, sometimes it sounds hollow or muddled, neither of which is ideal.

Bah…if I had the money, I’d keep both, run them both, and turn on the low-end filter on the Bowers to 28hz, that way I’d get the deep bass from the SVS and the higher stuff from the Bowers Sparing that, I’m not really sure what to do. I don’t think going from PB-2000 to PB12 Plus is the answer, I feel that would be more of the same. Maybe the SB13 Ultra would be the best of both worlds? If anything, it has an EQ, so I could tweak things such that the issue I’m having with the PB-2000 would be mitigated…

 

[tential]

Well your first issue which I already pointed out is that you're comparing a ported sub to a sealed sub. That basically makes most comparisons between the brands pointless. Should have picked up both ported or both sealed to see the difference.

As for the "Great in some ranges and weak in others." your biggest issue there is that you don't have an EQ. If you're the type of person that really pays attentions to that, then all the more reason to go DIY.

This is why DIY is recommended over Internet Direct or Commercial offerings like B&W.

partsexpress will sell you a flatpack+subowofer that will probably be on par/better than both both the B&W and the SVS. But, when you choose your amplification, people choose the inuke with DSP. The DSP allows them to really EQ the sub in MUCH finer tuning than your AVR.

Also, with DIY, lets say you want to upgrade your subwoofer/cabinet. It doesn't mean you have to purchase an all new amplifier too. I think the initial costs are about on par (once you purchase tools if you need more, and all the little extra things to finish your sub the way you like). But, the upgrades afterwards? Much cheaper since you're only paying for a subwoofer/cabinet again.

If I wanted to upgrade to a top of the line subwoofer right now it'd cost me $600 tops? Maybe $800? But I honestly doubt I'd be able to use it without seriously worrying about noise complaints lol.

If you have any woodworking knowledge you're definitely better off going DIY with a DSP if you're able to here by ear.

As for the comment on a subwoofer "not able to be noticed". That's really false. There is no way you'll be able to just "Not notice" if a system has a subwoofer. You'll know instantly if a system has a subwoofer vs if it doesn't and you'll always "notice" it. Not sure what you mean by that.

With the SVS though, I'd move it further away from the wall if the lowend is too much. You'd get more help though with measurements/pics of the "optimal" placement you ended up choosing as well as pics of the full room/layout. Room Layout is extremely huge when you're looking at lower frequencies.

 

[Paul98]

So I’m about a week in. I’ve found the optimal placement for both subs (luckily, it’s not the same place, no one wants to be dragging those heavy boxes around), tweaked the settings, and let them break in a bit. Done some more listening.

As has already been said, it’s not really surprising that the Bowers was better at music – and it still is. It really isn’t a contest there, for my ears anyway. For music, the Bowers sounds cleaner, smoother, tighter, and stronger. Which you’d expect, given that it’s sealed.

However, for home theater, the results are….well, still muddled. The deep end prowess of the SVS can’t be denied, but above that it really seems to…disappear. Now, I realize that a good subwoofer isn’t supposed to be noticed, it’s supposed to seamlessly integrate into the rest of the system. It isn’t that, so much as, the output above let’s say 40hz seems noticeably weak. If I compensate by raising the gain such that those frequencies are more pronounced, the low end is too strong, it just doesn’t feel like I can get an even setting there.

Meanwhile, the Bowers does those upper bass frequencies great, but when it gets too deep, sometimes it fades away, sometimes it sounds hollow or muddled, neither of which is ideal.

Bah…if I had the money, I’d keep both, run them both, and turn on the low-end filter on the Bowers to 28hz, that way I’d get the deep bass from the SVS and the higher stuff from the Bowers Sparing that, I’m not really sure what to do. I don’t think going from PB-2000 to PB12 Plus is the answer, I feel that would be more of the same. Maybe the SB13 Ultra would be the best of both worlds? If anything, it has an EQ, so I could tweak things such that the issue I’m having with the PB-2000 would be mitigated…

How have you been deciding what the optimal placement is? Do you have a receiver with Room EQ that works with the sub? Do you have an SPL meter and run Room EQ wizard? With that you will be able to tell exactly what the problem is, how changing position in the room changes the response and what can be done to fix it.

Without that you will have no clue what performance you have and what you are missing. A lot of people just end up with hugely off freq response but without knowing it so they think it just sounds great.

 

[Deeko]

I did the "crawl test" to find the placement - I put the sub in my listening position and crawled around until I found the location where it sounded the best. My receiver does have some automated settings (Advanced MCACC according to Pioneer) which I did run after placing the sub. I do not have an SPL meter myself, unfortunately.

tential - I am aware that a sealed sub will, in general, be better for music. That was expected. I went with the ported SVS because that's what the people at SVS recommended I do - and I didn't go with a ported Bowers for comparison because, well, there isn't one. Besides, I don't see the problem with comparing ported vs sealed anyway. You can read all the graphs and reviews you want, but everyone's ear hears things their own way, so actually listening to the difference is the only way to truly know your preference anyway. And, if you didn't gather - my preference is that I want the advantages of both

 

[Joris]

Hi guys,

Thank you for reporting on your quest Deeko, interesting stuff!
I'm on a similar hunt and did want to add some to the discussion:

First: visceral bass is almost impossible to produce for a sealed box
Second: a tight and detailed bass is almost impossible for a ported box
Third: all brands and designers have a target audience and brand philosophy which either focusses on either Boom or Crisp.

So probably best / easiest is to go for a brand /product that reflects your vision of how sound should be reproduced. Finding that brand requires quite some listening and driving around.

HOWEVER: there are two routes that might just close the gap between both worlds

- Innovative companies like HSU, Nubert and Canton developped subs with removable plugs or -in case of ze germans- boxes with passive downfiring woofers, these hybrids are quite impressive.

- Second option (which is tempting me towards the svs sb 1000) is comparable to my wine taste: take a wine from an abundant grape (eg chardonnay) and buy it from a culture in which they like to inhibit it, instead of amplifying it (The French don't even allow watering the plant Or the other way round with Sauvignon Blanc from South America.

So if b&w (musical finesse is their foundation) made a ported / bass reflected box that would be interesting. And if SVS (famed for massaging breast plates and inducing home evictions) makes a small sealed sub, I feel inclined to believe that this small box will still deliver enough grunt.

Adding to my preference towards this SVS product is that they stick to a minimum of 12 inch woofers, which makes it more natural and feasible to move substantial amounts of air in the first place.

Only worry remaining (apart from WAF, but it comes in
Glossy white nowadays) is: do they have the capacity to be as refined as B&W in the higher range? I suspect they are, based on their tremendous support on the web and specialization/R&D on subs.

Anyway, happy hunting! (Please don't tell me you kept that PB 2000 monster

 

[Raduque]

As for the comment on a subwoofer "not able to be noticed". That's really false. There is no way you'll be able to just "Not notice" if a system has a subwoofer. You'll know instantly if a system has a subwoofer vs if it doesn't and you'll always "notice" it. Not sure what you mean by that.

I think he's referring to localization - being able to close your eyes and point at the sub without knowing where it is beforehand.

 

[Deeko]

So I'm returning the PB-2000. It just doesn't do it for me. I'm debating whether or not to get a single SB13-Ultra or dual SB-2000s. I really don't want dual subs - but I do recognize the advantages. According to the SVS people, dual SB-2000s will have comparable output to a single SB13-Ultra above 50 hz and more below it, which does sound like what I'm looking for - but at the same time, I do like that the SB13 has an EQ so I could tweak it for my space more.

That said - the SVS people can only tell me "you're listening wrong" so many times before I stop dealing with them. They really like their ported subs and even though the guy I'm talking to says his personal setup is dual SB-2000s, he really pushed the ported sub before I bought it and now is really pushing for me to keep it. He insists it is a myth that a sealed box delivers tighter, stronger bass in the upper frequencies and that that's just my ears playing tricks on me.

Side note, early on I mentioned a "hollowness" in deep bass hits with the Bowers. Turns out that goes away if you remove the grill - I guess when its cranked up, the woofer moves too much for the grill to handle. Interesting find, although with two crazy dogs rolling around my house, that will only be removed when necessary...

 

[Deeko]

Ok - SB-13 Ultra arrived today. Definitely like it better than the PB-2000 so far...

 

[Deeko]

I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing about this, but hey - gotta close the loop.

A week into testing the SB-13 ultra, I think this might be the one. It's a solid compromise between the Bowers and the PB-2000. When it comes to the deep LFE effects in movies, the SB-13 might not have quite the same punch as the PB-2000, but it definitely hits those frequencies harder than the Bowers. We watched "How to Train Your Dragon" last night....a kids movie, sure, but it has a shocking amount of deep base (seriously, try it). You could feel the stomps and the rumbles coming front he SB-13, it's really not lacking below 20 hz. In music, the Bowers has a bit of an advantage - but its close, and considering how much better the SB-13 is at deep movie effects, its an acceptable compromise.

I'm still shocked at the amount of output the Bowers produces. That tiny 10" cube with a 500 watt amp is still louder than the 13.5" SB-13 with 1000 watts... above 40 hz, anyway. Maybe it's the room gain in my space, I'm not really sure... but when I have them set "even" to my ears, the SB-13 is at -1 dB, and the Bowers is only at about 2/3 volume. That said, I won't have it any higher than that anyway - that's the volume at which it blends with my speakers.

So, I still have a week or so of testing before the Bowers would have to go back, but as of now, I'm leaning SB-13. If this setup considered music more important, I'd go Bowers 10 times out of 10 - it really is an amazingly musical sub - but for a home theater sub, it's merely acceptable.... not what I'd expect for $1500. If they still made the 12" 12CM, it might be what I'm looking for, but sadly, they don't (plus that one MSRP'd at $2000).